ChuckBuck wrote:It's Phil's ego talking. He wants to do it his way, not the "right way". Unfortunately Phil the president ain't Phil the coach.

He'll continue to force his coaching tree disciples into the Knicks coaching jobs until it ultimately doesn't work, or his out clause is exercised in 2017.

Im thinking you have a thing about authority.

knicks1248 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

crzymdups wrote:
Woj and Berger have both run stories that Phil is interested primarily in proving the Triangle works. Fisher was fired in part because he didn't use the Triangle enough. Valuable assets have been traded away for poor return because they didn't fit the Triangle. We've turned away coaches who wanted to be here who are great because they aren't Triangle enough. I'm not sure how much more needs to happen for people to admit that Phil is out to prove the Triangle works.

And, yes, there's plenty of people in the league who say Phil is full of it and the Triangle didn't win the championships, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant and Shaq and Pippen and Gasol and Rodman and Grant and Odom had a lot more to do with it.

I tend to be in the latter camp.

You take the Triangle to OKC? Maybe that finally gets that group of players over the hump. That's a championship caliber roster that seems to not have quite figured out how to play together. Maybe there the Triangle is the final piece.

Phil's disciples have a 253-557 record. I think that's pretty good evidence that the Triangle as the first piece of the puzzle has not worked. That's a 31% winning percentage over 800 games. That's almost ten seasons of the Triangle not working.

Woj and Berger have both run stories that Phil is interested primarily in proving the Triangle works

Opinion pieces, that's what writers do to stir interest and readers.

Fisher was fired in part because he didn't use the Triangle enough.

Actually none of us really know why Fisher was fired. It would be reasonable to assume that Fisher was fired due to a number of reasons including most prominently communication and effectiveness issues.

Valuable assets have been traded away for poor return because they didn't fit the Triangle.

Trying to figure out who all these valuable assets were that the triangle chased away?

- Shumpert - Phil indicated he wanted to keep but had an injury history, had inefficient advanced stats and never reached potential.
- Smith - was a me first type player who had continual off/on the court issues, was high potential never reached and was a "me first" type
- Tyson - was was coming off an injury plagued season, was older, last year of contract and was becoming malcontent
- Felton - was mediocre at best, had off the court issues, was coming off a bad season and a $4 plus million contract over several years

That's pretty much it (see below for all PJ trades). Why do people expect we would have a plethora of first rounders or up and coming talent in return for these guys?

Prigs was 39 years old - Netted Schved and 2 2nd Rounders

Shumpert & JR Smith (off the court issues, malcontent, never has reached athletic potential) were traded for Admundson & Lance Thomas. Should be noted that Shumpert signed a $40 Million contract ($10 million per) with the Cavs. Is that what you want on this roster at that salary?

Hardaway was traded for rights to Grant

Ellington & Jeremy Tyler were traded for Acy & Outlaw

Chandler & Felton were traded for Dalembert, Calderon, Larkin, Ellington and 2 Second Rounders (Early & Thanasis)

Labyrie was acquired for Cash

Hernangomez was aquired for 2 2nd Rounders

We've turned away coaches who wanted to be here who are great because they aren't Triangle enough.

What coaches have been turned away with the exception of Thibs? And what is your definition of greatness in a coach? Thibs he is certainly a good coach....but Great? Perhaps he will prove his greatness in Minny, perhaps not? JVG would never come and work for Phil. Not sure what other "Great" coaches that Phil has spurned.

I'm not sure how much more needs to happen for people to admit that Phil is out to prove the Triangle works.

DUH. The triangle is a system that Phil used and won championships with. Of course he believes in it and will continue to expound it's philosophy and principles for the Knicks. I am much more interested in how he continues to build the roster for the long haul.

Phil's disciples have a 253-557 record.

Not sure how Phil's disciples is defined. Are Kerr and Walton part of that group? If you are using this to discredit the Triangle than you need to show which of these coaches adhered to strict Triangle philosophy and which did not.

HERE'S ANOTHER QUOTE FROM LEGLER

Q: What’s the feeling on the Knicks’ limited coaching search outside of New York?
A: I like Kurt [Rambis] a lot and he’s a really, really bright guy who I worked with at ESPN. It’s just weird to me that you would stick with the interim without conducting an extensive search when there are attractive candidates out there. … But not to really conduct a search is really odd. The Knicks job is in a major market, and it’s one guys are going to want because you’ll be a hero if you can figure out how to turn it around.

Q: Is it time to be seriously worried about Phil Jackson
A: It’s fair to look at where they are to where they were when he got there, and there should be a lot more progress. People still kind of see it as chaotic. This is a major offseason for the Knicks. They need to be showing they are moving in the right direction.

IT'S like EVERY time some one lays out phils so call agenda, you guys try to act like no one knows what they are talking about.

THE TRIANGLE MEANS MORE TO PHIL THAN ANYTHING KNICK RELATED..How can you argue reality

foosballnick wrote:

Phil's disciples have a 253-557 record.

Not sure how Phil's disciples is defined. Are Kerr and Walton part of that group? If you are using this to discredit the Triangle than you need to show which of these coaches adhered to strict Triangle philosophy and which did not.

It's determined by teams that have tried running the Triangle. Kerr does not run the Triangle in Golden State - he runs a blend of triangle, pace and space, with a healthy dose of Popovich.

Watch the Warriors play - it's a lot closer to Steve Nash running the Spurs offense if Steve Nash could shoot 50% from 3 from anywhere on the court than it is to ANY triangle team ever.

I've watched the Warriors closely to see what parts of the Triangle they use. The idea that the Warriors run a triple post is patently ABSURD.

Nalod wrote:Fishmike.

Jam it down our throughts? I thought he was asking us to bend over and with all 11 rings on his super sized smug "Jackson" man rod, he'd give us the triangle goodness once and for all!

Its juvenile to insist that Phil is trying to prove a point. He is trying to win and his method and discipline that has succeeded.
The list Crzymdups is subjective. Calling out GSW? Well that was last year and you know what they did was improbable. This year he congratulated them? More than that, they BEAT HIS RECORD!!!!
That's gracious.
Zach Randololp laughed about Mike cuz he don't think its a good question, or he knows Phil might not even go after him. Fans want COnley, media wants conley, but we don't know if PHil wants to pay him or even want him here. Basically your putting Z-bo over Phil. Great argument.

We don't know if Phil will be a great exec or not but if you look objectively the process of tearing it down and putting it back is not easy task when yoru assets are depleted as they have been for the many reasons we have discussed many times. If you resent his money, that's one thing. If you don't believe in the system, that's also important. Maybe no other human can coach the triangle successfully and your right.

Time will tell. I respect you all. I've made my case and shaken my fist at the sky and done my anti-Rambis rain dance. No I will retire to my cave for a while to ruminate and wish we had a draft pick (I know that part ain't Phil's fault).

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fishmike.

Jam it down our throughts? I thought he was asking us to bend over and with all 11 rings on his super sized smug "Jackson" man rod, he'd give us the triangle goodness once and for all!

Its juvenile to insist that Phil is trying to prove a point. He is trying to win and his method and discipline that has succeeded.
The list Crzymdups is subjective. Calling out GSW? Well that was last year and you know what they did was improbable. This year he congratulated them? More than that, they BEAT HIS RECORD!!!!
That's gracious.
Zach Randololp laughed about Mike cuz he don't think its a good question, or he knows Phil might not even go after him. Fans want COnley, media wants conley, but we don't know if PHil wants to pay him or even want him here. Basically your putting Z-bo over Phil. Great argument.

We don't know if Phil will be a great exec or not but if you look objectively the process of tearing it down and putting it back is not easy task when yoru assets are depleted as they have been for the many reasons we have discussed many times. If you resent his money, that's one thing. If you don't believe in the system, that's also important. Maybe no other human can coach the triangle successfully and your right.

Time will tell. I respect you all. I've made my case and shaken my fist at the sky and done my anti-Rambis rain dance. No I will retire to my cave for a while to ruminate and wish we had a draft pick (I know that part ain't Phil's fault).

Nobody will convince anyone of anything so its pointless to keep going. Its apparent you have watered down your retort and have to resort to the white flag. After all, nobody here is absolute in the right or in the know. Except Uncle ChunkBuck. That's a whole other argument!!!

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
HERE'S ANOTHER QUOTE FROM LEGLER

Q: What’s the feeling on the Knicks’ limited coaching search outside of New York?
A: I like Kurt [Rambis] a lot and he’s a really, really bright guy who I worked with at ESPN. It’s just weird to me that you would stick with the interim without conducting an extensive search when there are attractive candidates out there. … But not to really conduct a search is really odd. The Knicks job is in a major market, and it’s one guys are going to want because you’ll be a hero if you can figure out how to turn it around.

Q: Is it time to be seriously worried about Phil Jackson
A: It’s fair to look at where they are to where they were when he got there, and there should be a lot more progress. People still kind of see it as chaotic. This is a major offseason for the Knicks. They need to be showing they are moving in the right direction.

IT'S like EVERY time some one lays out phils so call agenda, you guys try to act like no one knows what they are talking about.

THE TRIANGLE MEANS MORE TO PHIL THAN ANYTHING KNICK RELATED..How can you argue reality

its easy to argue because what you are saying isn't reality. Its your feelings and your agenda. The guy wins the most rings in NBA history running this offense and you say that defending it means more than anything? Feel free to stick to that. The REALITY is he has a vision and a blueprint of a team, and that blueprint involves running the system he wants. If it was Hinkie than yea man... I would question it a bit more. Its not. Its Phil and 11 rings. But yea... he took the job because he felt the triangle wasn't appreciated enough so he figured he would a GM, jam it down everyone's throat just to prove a point. Cause that's what this guy is about. Yea... reality.

Hinkie got three seasons in Philly. We're at two for Phil.

I'm not sure how the poster you're responding to is warping reality. It sounds pretty legit to me.

Various NBA reporters around the league, various executives around the league are shaking their heads about the way Phil is operating the coaching search. There's a lot of doubt about the job Phil is doing around the league.

I respect what you're saying that it is a process and takes time, but to act like people who have a problem with some of his methods so far:

1) being an absentee President who fired his pick at coach for not communicating enough (via text messages! that's an actual quote - Phil said Derek would respond to texts with one word and it made him feel like there was a communication issue. Maybe if Phil spent the full season in NY, but he doesnt)

2) calling out GSW publicly and repeatedly, calling out former players he traded publicly on twitter

3) handing the coaching job to Rambis without interviewing candidates such as Scott Brooks, Tom Thibodeau, etc

4) trading away players who have been playoffs starters for little to no return - JR, Shump, Tyson, Felton, all started playoffs games after being traded away from here. The return for all those guys is... what... Lance Thomas and Jose Calderon?

5) we keep hearing the cap space is a big draw and a big part of the plan, but so far he's signed one viable free agent in Robin Lopez. Melo took less money last season because last summer was supposed to be such a huge deal for the team. We got Rolo, who is solid.

Yes, it's a process. But don't act like Phil is unassailable or that there isn't serious doubt about him around the league. Rajon Rondo said he wouldn't come here to play in the Triangle. Zach Randolph started cackling when a reporter asked Mike Conley if he'd come here. Kent Bazemore laughed and said he'd never take more money to play for a 17-win team when asked about NY.

Please don't act like this is the delusion of a few fans on this board. People are going to laugh their asses off if the Knicks hire Rambis. It's a joke. You can puff up your chest and act like they don't know what they're talking about, but it's a large portion of the league that feels this way.

Again, I respect your opinion as a poster here, but I think it is pretty legit to have issues with how this has gone so far and the future prospects for FA and team improvement if Rambis is the coach. Rambis may be a fine basketball mind. He's not a great coach. I saw him with my own eyes for 30 games here. He made countless missteps and the team regressed under him. I have zero faith in him at coach going forward. If you go read the website Posting and Toasting, almost every poster there says the same. The best Knicks beat reporter Chris Herring for the Wall Street Journal has said the same.

This is not some made up trolling we're doing. This is concern that Rambis is nowhere near the best guy for the job and it's being handed to him.

And for the 1,000th time - Phil is an all-time great coach. That doesn't necessarily translate to great executive or GM. We've already discussed that there were at least two times he asked for Kobe Bryant to be traded and Kupchak told him no.

And who have I said doesn't know what they are talking about?

Im sorry if I find the notion that Phil's #1 agenda and reason for this gig is to prove the triangle. That strikes me as one of more bizarre things I have read around here. Ever. That's grumpy fans convinced that because they FEEL a certain way it must be true. Just like you FEEL that Rambis cant succeed.

If Rambis is the head coach he will have things he didn't have prior, and that includes the 30 crappy games from this last year. I am not saying he will succeed. I am not saying he is the coach that I want. What I am saying is the best coach for the job is the one that Phil picks. That's what I am saying. If that is Rambis he has his reasons and because its Phil, and because of the future based moves he's made in two years I will wait and see to make judgment.

I will say that Rambis's record in Minn has NO relevance this situation, aside from the job title.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
HERE'S ANOTHER QUOTE FROM LEGLER

Q: What’s the feeling on the Knicks’ limited coaching search outside of New York?
A: I like Kurt [Rambis] a lot and he’s a really, really bright guy who I worked with at ESPN. It’s just weird to me that you would stick with the interim without conducting an extensive search when there are attractive candidates out there. … But not to really conduct a search is really odd. The Knicks job is in a major market, and it’s one guys are going to want because you’ll be a hero if you can figure out how to turn it around.

Q: Is it time to be seriously worried about Phil Jackson
A: It’s fair to look at where they are to where they were when he got there, and there should be a lot more progress. People still kind of see it as chaotic. This is a major offseason for the Knicks. They need to be showing they are moving in the right direction.

IT'S like EVERY time some one lays out phils so call agenda, you guys try to act like no one knows what they are talking about.

THE TRIANGLE MEANS MORE TO PHIL THAN ANYTHING KNICK RELATED..How can you argue reality

its easy to argue because what you are saying isn't reality. Its your feelings and your agenda. The guy wins the most rings in NBA history running this offense and you say that defending it means more than anything? Feel free to stick to that. The REALITY is he has a vision and a blueprint of a team, and that blueprint involves running the system he wants. If it was Hinkie than yea man... I would question it a bit more. Its not. Its Phil and 11 rings. But yea... he took the job because he felt the triangle wasn't appreciated enough so he figured he would a GM, jam it down everyone's throat just to prove a point. Cause that's what this guy is about. Yea... reality.

Hinkie got three seasons in Philly. We're at two for Phil.

I'm not sure how the poster you're responding to is warping reality. It sounds pretty legit to me.

Various NBA reporters around the league, various executives around the league are shaking their heads about the way Phil is operating the coaching search. There's a lot of doubt about the job Phil is doing around the league.

I respect what you're saying that it is a process and takes time, but to act like people who have a problem with some of his methods so far:

1) being an absentee President who fired his pick at coach for not communicating enough (via text messages! that's an actual quote - Phil said Derek would respond to texts with one word and it made him feel like there was a communication issue. Maybe if Phil spent the full season in NY, but he doesnt)

2) calling out GSW publicly and repeatedly, calling out former players he traded publicly on twitter

3) handing the coaching job to Rambis without interviewing candidates such as Scott Brooks, Tom Thibodeau, etc

4) trading away players who have been playoffs starters for little to no return - JR, Shump, Tyson, Felton, all started playoffs games after being traded away from here. The return for all those guys is... what... Lance Thomas and Jose Calderon?

5) we keep hearing the cap space is a big draw and a big part of the plan, but so far he's signed one viable free agent in Robin Lopez. Melo took less money last season because last summer was supposed to be such a huge deal for the team. We got Rolo, who is solid.

Yes, it's a process. But don't act like Phil is unassailable or that there isn't serious doubt about him around the league. Rajon Rondo said he wouldn't come here to play in the Triangle. Zach Randolph started cackling when a reporter asked Mike Conley if he'd come here. Kent Bazemore laughed and said he'd never take more money to play for a 17-win team when asked about NY.

Please don't act like this is the delusion of a few fans on this board. People are going to laugh their asses off if the Knicks hire Rambis. It's a joke. You can puff up your chest and act like they don't know what they're talking about, but it's a large portion of the league that feels this way.

Again, I respect your opinion as a poster here, but I think it is pretty legit to have issues with how this has gone so far and the future prospects for FA and team improvement if Rambis is the coach. Rambis may be a fine basketball mind. He's not a great coach. I saw him with my own eyes for 30 games here. He made countless missteps and the team regressed under him. I have zero faith in him at coach going forward. If you go read the website Posting and Toasting, almost every poster there says the same. The best Knicks beat reporter Chris Herring for the Wall Street Journal has said the same.

This is not some made up trolling we're doing. This is concern that Rambis is nowhere near the best guy for the job and it's being handed to him.

And for the 1,000th time - Phil is an all-time great coach. That doesn't necessarily translate to great executive or GM. We've already discussed that there were at least two times he asked for Kobe Bryant to be traded and Kupchak told him no.

well if you want to only focus on one thing you will lose perspective. I don't know what else to tell you. The Chandler trade wasn't good, but Robin Lopez is 100x better moving forward. Durable, can score and at least 5 year younger. Fixed. Did you watch JR and Shump here? Trading them in a pump and dump is a nice idea, and Shump had value once. He didn't when he was traded, or it was minimal at best. You know what Shump and Tyson have in common? Both are some of the NBA worst contracts and they are not on the Knicks. Sorry no... Im just not buying. When we were 20-20 and trending upward this year nobody cared or worried about JR/Shump/Chandler... but now that Phil may hire a coach you hate its bad GMing and he didn't get enough? Smells a lot like revisionist history to me.

And who have I said doesn't know what they are talking about?

Im sorry if I find the notion that Phil's #1 agenda and reason for this gig is to prove the triangle. That strikes me as one of more bizarre things I have read around here. Ever. That's grumpy fans convinced that because they FEEL a certain way it must be true. Just like you FEEL that Rambis cant succeed.

If Rambis is the head coach he will have things he didn't have prior, and that includes the 30 crappy games from this last year. I am not saying he will succeed. I am not saying he is the coach that I want. What I am saying is the best coach for the job is the one that Phil picks. That's what I am saying. If that is Rambis he has his reasons and because its Phil, and because of the future based moves he's made in two years I will wait and see to make judgment.

I will say that Rambis's record in Minn has NO relevance this situation, aside from the job title.

I could go over every move again in detail but it would not really shed any new light on the situation. I'll try to keep it short.

Tyson trade - F, Zero value in return and the reasons for trading Tyson should have kept you from want Jose, Dalembert, and Larkin. He did a good job freeing the team of Tyson's contract except Jose last two years added up to the same amount of money.

Shump/JR - F, You gave up the two best players for Kirk, Lou, and Thomas. 3 players you cut but @ of which you brought back and later overpaid them for being good guys. Thomas blossomed but was not signed to a long cost controlled contract, so he could end up leaving.

Pablo - A++, Received two 2nd rd picks for a great locker room guy and did right by him by sending him to a playoff team

THJR- A+, 1st rd pick in return for a player who didn't look like he was progressing, Chose Grant over other players but grant may prove to be a good player,

Willy G- B+- traded several twos for a prospect in what appears to be a great big man draft, Promising asset

FAs

Lopez - A+, Great guy, improving player, great contract, asset going forward

AA - D+ - one way player and most people knew it, dumb contract(zero upside w player option), could have been traded at the deadline but instead kept to make a playoff push. Now he holds the cards to some cap space

DW - C-, Same as above but with potential, bad contract, may cost too much to keep

O'Q - B+, great deal, interesting player, needs developing, asset,

KS - F, if people don't now why then they did not watch the season

Coach Fisher - F, hand picked, gave him space then didn't like that he kept his distance even though it was the culture Phil created. mad that he did not listen to the "old guys", Fired 1.5 years in.

Coaching search - Who knows, using the buddy system aka, the Chris Smith treatment.

KP - A+ - saving grace, listen to his scouts, and didn't cave in to trade down.

Edited: added a few more that slipped my mind at the time Sorry

Nothing you posted was fatal. Chris Smith?? Rambis has been a part of many winning teams.

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fishmike.

Jam it down our throughts? I thought he was asking us to bend over and with all 11 rings on his super sized smug "Jackson" man rod, he'd give us the triangle goodness once and for all!

Its juvenile to insist that Phil is trying to prove a point. He is trying to win and his method and discipline that has succeeded.
The list Crzymdups is subjective. Calling out GSW? Well that was last year and you know what they did was improbable. This year he congratulated them? More than that, they BEAT HIS RECORD!!!!
That's gracious.
Zach Randololp laughed about Mike cuz he don't think its a good question, or he knows Phil might not even go after him. Fans want COnley, media wants conley, but we don't know if PHil wants to pay him or even want him here. Basically your putting Z-bo over Phil. Great argument.

We don't know if Phil will be a great exec or not but if you look objectively the process of tearing it down and putting it back is not easy task when yoru assets are depleted as they have been for the many reasons we have discussed many times. If you resent his money, that's one thing. If you don't believe in the system, that's also important. Maybe no other human can coach the triangle successfully and your right.

Time will tell. I respect you all. I've made my case and shaken my fist at the sky and done my anti-Rambis rain dance. No I will retire to my cave for a while to ruminate and wish we had a draft pick (I know that part ain't Phil's fault).

hey man we don't agree on the subject but i respect your opinion and your ability to present your views. we're not going to always agree on everything but you always keep things respectful and thought provoking, which is what this place is all about.