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NY Daily News: Carter is trying to force a trade to New York
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EnySpree
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7/30/2004  1:14 PM
I would welcome a VC trade but now that I think about it we would be trading right back into a Sprewell type situation cuz Houston would have to be the shooting guard because of his contract and versatility.

Geez I hate Houston.....He is the highest paid shooting guard right now.....he's by far not the best so the Knicks are forever screwed until his deal is up.....shyte!!!
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CTKnicksfan
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7/30/2004  1:34 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

I would welcome a VC trade but now that I think about it we would be trading right back into a Sprewell type situation cuz Houston would have to be the shooting guard because of his contract and versatility.

I really don't think this is like the Houston-Sprewell situation because Carter is more of a true SF than Spree. Spree really was playing out of position at SF, but VC at least is 6-7 200+ can stand up to opposing SF's, despite not being a great defender.
technomaster
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7/30/2004  2:18 PM
Yeah. Vince Carter plays big for his size (listed at only 6'6"), averaging over 5 boards/gm for his career (take that TT!).

For those who criticize him for shying away from contact, he averaged 5.7 ft attempts/gm. Tim Thomas averaged 3.3... (even Allan Houston averaged more at 3.4)

I don't think we'll get him, but it's funny how people think he's not clutch. In 15 playoff games, he averaged 25.7ppg, 5.0apg, 6.4rpg, 1.53spg, 1.5bpg (incredible for a SG/SF!), and a relatively low 2.33tpg.

I think he's a far superior player overall to Crawford (and most wing players in the NBA!), and has enough ball handling/passing skills to play some point-forward.

Don't forget that Crawford has had his share of injuries (torn ACL, nearly a broken neck!) during his short tenure in the NBA.

Yeah, all of these comments about Vince are merely rumors. Everyone w/ a max contract claims they want to go to play in NY (then don't)-- it's always a contract ploy.

For those who actually make it here, it's tough especially if you're earning a lot of money, cuz if you don't perform every day you're here, you'll get booed. You can score 35 points with a triple double and get booed if you miss 2 free throws in the 4th quarter. You get booed if you carry your team from a 20 point deficit and miss the potential game winning 3 pointer at the buzzer. It's for these reasons that players generally shy away from NY.

The one positive I take from this Carter rumor is that Toronto has a history of trading with New York... From Camby to Mark Jackson... Oakley to Childs.

I think a package based around Sweetney/TT might get them thinking-- they'll need a young star in the making to replace Carter. Toronto would stand to lose a ton of money in merchandising by trading Carter. When Orlando traded McGrady, at least they got another hugely popular player in return.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
jaydh
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7/30/2004  3:32 PM
ok, i understand vince wants to come here because of isaih. but...... no way toronto is going to trade him here just because he demands it. i just dont see how we can attain him without trading marbury(which is out of the question). also, would vince play SF, or would allan come off the bench? would this make TT expendable? TT+fwill+lots of money for vince? i doubt that would do it for toronto. or even tt+kt wouldnt be enough. it would be great to have marbs&vince together in their prime, but its a pipedream.
nyballer
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7/30/2004  3:59 PM
Posted by jaydh:

ok, i understand vince wants to come here because of isaih. but...... no way toronto is going to trade him here just because he demands it. i just dont see how we can attain him without trading marbury(which is out of the question). also, would vince play SF, or would allan come off the bench? would this make TT expendable? TT+fwill+lots of money for vince? i doubt that would do it for toronto. or even tt+kt wouldnt be enough. it would be great to have marbs&vince together in their prime, but its a pipedream.
on the first page i suggested a trade where toronto gets rid of alvin williams (but takes back erob) and gets crawford and tim thomas - that's two, young players with lots of potential. the bulls get their salary cap relief and we get carter, JYD, alvin williams, and montross (an expiring contract we can move at the deadline)
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jaydh
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7/30/2004  4:13 PM
on the first page i suggested a trade where toronto gets rid of alvin williams (but takes back erob) and gets crawford and tim thomas - that's two, young players with lots of potential. the bulls get their salary cap relief and we get carter, JYD, alvin williams, and montross (an expiring contract we can move at the deadline)

can vince play SF on a regular basis? i know allan cant, nor is allan tradable(until his contract is in the final year).
nyballer
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7/30/2004  4:26 PM
Posted by jaydh:
on the first page i suggested a trade where toronto gets rid of alvin williams (but takes back erob) and gets crawford and tim thomas - that's two, young players with lots of potential. the bulls get their salary cap relief and we get carter, JYD, alvin williams, and montross (an expiring contract we can move at the deadline)

can vince play SF on a regular basis? i know allan cant, nor is allan tradable(until his contract is in the final year).
i think so, he is strong enough to keep most sf's out of the post and he is athletic enough that they wont overpower him with their height, even if he was hurt last year. i know he used to guard a lot of sf's and he usually did a pretty good job. also, if houston is hurt he can play the 2 and penny can play the 3
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simrud
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7/30/2004  5:38 PM
I think KT, TT, and FW for Carter would be an awesome trade.

KT is highly expandable as Sweetney needs to start, and FW is also expandable because Marbury will play 40 mints at PG every day. TT is just a much worse player then Carter in every category.

Now to address all the crap people are sayin bout Vince.

1)He is a choker in the playoffs:
His stats have already been posted, they are amazing. His numbers are all you can ask for in the playoffs.

2)He is soft:
The guy averages more rebounds a game then TT while being about 6 7 and 200 something. He is about a million times tougher then Gazy, or Houston for that matter. He is not tough guy, but he just might be one of the toughest guys on our generally soft team.

3)He is a bad defender:
TT is far worse, so is Houston, while neither is nearly as good on offense. So I don't see any logic to that argument.

4)He is past his prime:
This is the most retarded one of them all, he is 28, say it with me, 28 YEARS OLD. If a player at 28 is past his prime, then half the NBA should just reture right now.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
jaydh
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7/30/2004  5:43 PM
but even still, just cuz vince wants to come here doesnt mean he will. toronto could get much better quality talent is return from another team. only way this gets done is via 3 or 4 way trade.
Bonn1997
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7/30/2004  6:13 PM
Posted by simrud:

I think KT, TT, and FW for Carter would be an awesome trade.

KT is highly expandable as Sweetney needs to start, and FW is also expandable because Marbury will play 40 mints at PG every day. TT is just a much worse player then Carter in every category.

Now to address all the crap people are sayin bout Vince.

1)He is a choker in the playoffs:
His stats have already been posted, they are amazing. His numbers are all you can ask for in the playoffs.

2)He is soft:
The guy averages more rebounds a game then TT while being about 6 7 and 200 something. He is about a million times tougher then Gazy, or Houston for that matter. He is not tough guy, but he just might be one of the toughest guys on our generally soft team.

3)He is a bad defender:
TT is far worse, so is Houston, while neither is nearly as good on offense. So I don't see any logic to that argument.

4)He is past his prime:
This is the most retarded one of them all, he is 28, say it with me, 28 YEARS OLD. If a player at 28 is past his prime, then half the NBA should just reture right now.

I agree with your first three points. As for the fourth one, maybe "passed his prime" sounds strange for a 28 year, but if you've watched him closely over the last two years he HAS lost a step. He's still very good but he's not as great as he used to be.
BRIGGS
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7/30/2004  6:38 PM
so what happened to these clowns in the media make up everything????

it's called selective delusion. you believe what you want to believe--this article must be write but anything with a negative spin must be wrong. Yeah about this ill give you Carter for Marbury--how's that for a tad of reality.
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technomaster
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7/30/2004  7:12 PM
Past his prime? Well... most NBA players seem to lose a little bit of their raw athleticism as they get older and their bodies mature. The 30 year old Michael Jordan wasn't the same high flyer that he was when he first came into the league.

Injuries or not, Carter can still jump and explode... he's just more likely to pick his spots than go all-out 100% of the time. Perhaps we'll just call it self-preservation. He has learned to contribute in other ways and is probably a much better all-around player than his supposed prime 3 years ago.

Anyway, all of this Marbury is untouchable stuff got me thinking about his playoff numbers:

18 games, 19.4ppg, 6.7apg, 3.8rpg, 3.56tpg, *.365 FG%*, *.276 FT%*, 3.3 Pf/g. Wow.

With the exception of steals, all of his numbers get worse under playoff pressure compared to his career averages. His personal fouls increase by a full foul.

Now who would you rather have, a guy who steps up his game in the playoffs, or a guy who becomes more inefficient?
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
timmyTtop
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7/30/2004  7:17 PM
Posted by technomaster:

Past his prime? Well... most NBA players seem to lose a little bit of their raw athleticism as they get older and their bodies mature. The 30 year old Michael Jordan wasn't the same high flyer that he was when he first came into the league.

Injuries or not, Carter can still jump and explode... he's just more likely to pick his spots than go all-out 100% of the time. Perhaps we'll just call it self-preservation. He has learned to contribute in other ways and is probably a much better all-around player than his supposed prime 3 years ago.

Anyway, all of this Marbury is untouchable stuff got me thinking about his playoff numbers:

18 games, 19.4ppg, 6.7apg, 3.8rpg, 3.56tpg, *.365 FG%*, *.276 FT%*, 3.3 Pf/g. Wow.

With the exception of steals, all of his numbers get worse under playoff pressure compared to his career averages. His personal fouls increase by a full foul.

Now who would you rather have, a guy who steps up his game in the playoffs, or a guy who becomes more inefficient?

man i should beat u with a stick, where was houston or tim thomas??? they trapped him and double and triple teamed him bc there were no threats, shandon and penny shot horribly, so they just left them open while marbury was cornored... dude didnt u watch the games? get ur facts straight. marbury is arguably the top 3, some would say 2, point gaurd in the league. dont bash what others would die to have.
technomaster
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7/30/2004  7:30 PM
Hey, Marbury only had 4 playoff games w/ the Knicks. What about the 14 other games he had with the Suns among others? What about when he got schooled by Tony Parker the year before?
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bonn1997
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7/30/2004  7:50 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

so what happened to these clowns in the media make up everything????
for Marbury--how's that for a tad of reality.
When there are quotes from the players, I assume the statements are at least not made up. Even that doesn't mean the statement of the individual represents his true intentions, though, but it is a step above "un-named sources" or statements without quotes. Still, I would never claim that a deal is dead (or about to go through, either) just because one writer felt it was.
Bonn1997
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7/30/2004  7:53 PM
18 games, 19.4ppg, 6.7apg, 3.8rpg, 3.56tpg, *.365 FG%*, *.276 FT%*, 3.3 Pf/g
Now you're just making things up, TECHNOMASTER; I don'y believe for one second that he's shot 27.6% from the free throw line in his playoff career.

The other numbers all look great except the field goal percentage

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/30/2004 22:31:31]
MaTT4281
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7/30/2004  8:36 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
18 games, 19.4ppg, 6.7apg, 3.8rpg, 3.56tpg, *.365 FG%*, *.276 FT%*, 3.3 Pf/g
Now you're just making things up; I don'y believe for one second that he's shot 27.6% from the free throw line in his playoff career.

The other numbers all look great except the field goal percentage

Maybe it was 27.6% from 3?
BigSm00th
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7/30/2004  10:04 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Raptors would want Sweetney and Frank Williams in any deal for Carter if the Knicks aren't going to give up Marbury.

They don't want garbage, that package gives them a young PG and a solid front line (Bosh, Araujo, Sweetney).

I don't want Carter, he can stay in TOR.

"What about when he got schooled by Tony Parker the year before?" Probably didn't watch that series, Marbury dominated the first two games, then injured his shoulder and ankle and played basically 50% the rest of the series. The Suns beat the Spurs 2 times, the same amount as the Lakers, and the same amount as the Mavs, the same amount as the Nets.

GAME 1
Marbury-26 points, 6 assists in 53 minutes. Hits half-court 3 to tie the game.
Parker-7 points, 7 assists
GAME 2
Marbury-32 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists
Parker-2 points, 2 assists
GAME 3
Marbury-25 points, 7 assists
Parker-29 points, 3 assists
GAME 4
link didn't work, though I believe Marbury played poorly
GAME 5
Marbury-13 points, 7 assists
Parker-7 points, 2 assists, 4 TO
GAME 6
Marbury-18 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assits, 6 TO
Parker-17 points, 1 assist

Schooled by Tony Parker doesn't sound very accurate, esp. when you had a transcendent Tim Duncan playing against a 19 YO fresh out of high school. It was severely lopsided, and Marbury carried his team.

I really can't wait for the day Marbury gets the right pieces around him and he makes the ECF or Finals, all the haters will stop then.
#Knickstaps
Bonn1997
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7/30/2004  10:26 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:
Posted by Bonn1997:
18 games, 19.4ppg, 6.7apg, 3.8rpg, 3.56tpg, *.365 FG%*, *.276 FT%*, 3.3 Pf/g
Now you're just making things up; I don'y believe for one second that he's shot 27.6% from the free throw line in his playoff career.

The other numbers all look great except the field goal percentage

Maybe it was 27.6% from 3?
Maybe; I have no idea what the number is from. It looks like TECHNOMASTER just made it up. I can't imagine Marbury shooting 27 percent from the free throw line in his playoff career. He actually shot 73% from the line in his young playoff career. I guess those numbers are very close and could easily be confused


Bigsmooth: It looks like Marbury schooled Parker (and Parker was just lucky to have Duncan to carry the team)


[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/30/2004 22:28:41]

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/30/2004 22:30:28]
PresIke
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7/30/2004  10:50 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

That's just it, though. Vince would sell tickets in NYC, but he is:

1) Injury prone/losing his hops
2) A *ussy
3) Not a team leader
4) Afraid to take over games in playoffs
5) Lacking defensive intensity

Ok,

1) Part one may be true, (he did play 73 games this past season but part 2 I have not seen any evidence of.

2) Not sure how to respond to this.

3) Not everyone needs to be a leader...Patrick wasn't either and we went to the Finals twice.

4) There is more than enough evidence to defeat this claim. Go back to the 2001 playoffs when he CARRIED the Raptors to the 7th game against the East Champs (Philly). He was matching AI game for game with 50 point outputs, and had handily schooled the Knicks in the first round.

5) Ok, gotta give you this one, but with good defensive coaching poor defenders can be covered, or work on one aspect of their D, like help defense.

I think Vince will benefit hugely from a change of scenery. All that said, I doubt we will see him in the orange and blue.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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