callmened wrote:Sorry folks I find the concept of Sam Hinkie's process very interesting. Its a mockery to the NBA that teams (COULD) benefit by losing games on purpose to get good draft picks (and hopefully a star player). The NBA had two choices: change their rules or make the team stop. Silver decided to "make" the sixers hire Colangelo and THAT was the end of that.

However what i propose for my beloved NY knicks is a modified remix of "the process". Ideally, i think the process should have the ultimate goal of acquiring a franchise player, young cheap talent and build free agents around them. I think thats what Hinkie was doing however he kept failing to get that star in the draft and the losing became so disgraceful that he had to go.

Plan
1. get franchise star (CHECK!) = i think ONE year (maybe 2) of tanking is cool but you better hit a home run with the star. Hinkie so far has flopped on Embiid, Noel, MCW, Saric and Okafor. None of these seem to be franchise players

2. acquire cheap young players = i think THIS is the next step for the knicks. Unfortunately, they DONT control Melo otherwise he couldve been traded for young assets/draft picks. The point of this step is to look in the D leagues, overseas and find talent for cheap. I'll give Hinkie credit for finding J. Grant, Covington, I. Canaan etc. Young players include upcoming draft picks in 2017 and 18 (filled with PGs and bigs)

3. Lastly, bring in free agents to surround these young kids. THAT is where Hinkie went wrong to piss off the owners. He DIDNT spend any money on free agents. Im sure owners got pissed off (since theyre paying luxury taxes while philly does nothing). I think the knicks should use their money to buy role players. (Affalo types - stop gap players who are the 4th best player on the team). Dont overspend on bad talent.

This "process" would take 2-3 yrs of mediocre talent and losing (not necessarily tanking but bad enough to get a lottery pick). Just in time for KP to grow into his prime, a young core to develop around him and once the short term mediocre contracts expire in the summer of 2018, THEN you can splurge on free agents once the cap levels off.

Overall, Hinkie "failed" because he was making a mockery of the NBA by tanking, not capitalizing on draft picks and not spending money. (Btw i think the sixers will benefit from Hinkie's hard work in the future if they draft and select FAs wisely). The knicks fortunately have their franchise player in KP. Now they should get young talent and surround them with short term FAs

any thoughts?

PS i apologize if this Hinkie topic has been discussed. i think BOOKS should be written about the "process". It was a live science experiment in the NBA and so many lessons could be learned

KP has the potential to be a franchise player. But he doesn't even have an all star appearance yet. He needs to prove to officially be that franchise player first.

Also don't agree with trading proven commodities like Carmelo for question marks. You trade a Carmelo Anthony when you have his replacement ready. And no i'm not talking about KP as a franchise player. I am talking about another proven young productive player that plays his same position.

Do agree that 2018-2019 needs to be planned for. That is when Carmelo's contract expires and KP's extension begins with a huge amount of cap space. There are no contracts that go past that season as it stands. We need to have built a playoff team that is fighting in the playoffs. This will make it easier for management to convince KP or any other Knick players to take a slight pay cut to maintain competitive success and or convince stud FAs that with KP and the other pieces we have they can legit win a championship. If we strictly have been a rebuilding team for those seasons then we aren't as attractive or won't be taken as seriously unless we hit on our draft picks. But its dangerous to bank all your success on hitting on draft picks.

Phil needs to work the draft as much as possible without depending solely on it. Golden State had Monte Ellis, and drafted Klay Thompson. After they realized Klay was NBA worthy, then they moved Ellis to fill there center needs. They drafted Harrison Barnes but traded for Iggy a proven player. Draymond Green then stepped up as a real player in the league as a 2nd rounder behind David Lee. The Spurs landed Kwahi using house money with George Hill since they already had Parker.

There's a n awful lot of youth in the organization if you count overseas and D League. So far they haven't really had a lot of results but it's SOOOOOOO early in the process.

callmened wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Also don't agree with trading proven commodities like Carmelo for question marks. You trade a Carmelo Anthony when you have his replacement ready. And no i'm not talking about KP as a franchise player. I am talking about another proven young productive player that plays his same position.

i think its a moot point anyways cuz he controls where he goes and i dont think he wants to leave ny. nevertheless, i dont necessarily prioritize replacing melo's production instantly. i prefer getting younger picks and then finding melo type of replacement talent in FA summer of 2018

the key to a successful franchise is ownership, management, and players being on the same page. what jackson is trying to do is, paraphrasing his words, is to create something lasting after he has retired. so his job is to create a culture for the knicks franchise that hasn't been in place or healthy.

ownership: dolan, even after finally admitting his ignorance and removing himself from the process, nonetheless seems to have meddled in a typically destructive way-- the ntc you alluded to with the "main" player.

the no-trade clause severely hampers what jackson can do, because melo has too much power. nobody but dolan could have created this self-destructive situation.

i am not saying the situation is hopeless, because jackson can exert some control over the situation, both with the coach he selects and, through the coach, how much playing time players get. we have seen glimpses of this with afflalo, a less expensive and much worse player than melo, who happen to have an opt-in clause. by demoting afflalo, rambis/jackson forces the issue.

bad melo has no control over who the knicks acquire along the lines of his own bad melo agenda, ie win now. that's a very good thing, because bad melo may be forced to ask for a trade if he doesn't like what jackson decides to do. good melo, however, the melo who has gotten paid, and who realizes he won't be able to have his cake and eat it too-- that good melo will just have to roll with jackson's agenda, and gracefully age into more of a pierce and ginobili role-- highly effective in increasingly reduced minutes.

or good melo could still ask to be traded to a contender-- in any of these scenarios the goal will remain the same: culture change and the quest to build something lasting.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

callmened wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Also don't agree with trading proven commodities like Carmelo for question marks. You trade a Carmelo Anthony when you have his replacement ready. And no i'm not talking about KP as a franchise player. I am talking about another proven young productive player that plays his same position.

i think its a moot point anyways cuz he controls where he goes and i dont think he wants to leave ny. nevertheless, i dont necessarily prioritize replacing melo's production instantly. i prefer getting younger picks and then finding melo type of replacement talent in FA summer of 2018

the key to a successful franchise is ownership, management, and players being on the same page. what jackson is trying to do is, paraphrasing his words, is to create something lasting after he has retired. so his job is to create a culture for the knicks franchise that hasn't been in place or healthy.

ownership: dolan, even after finally admitting his ignorance and removing himself from the process, nonetheless seems to have meddled in a typically destructive way-- the ntc you alluded to with the "main" player.

the no-trade clause severely hampers what jackson can do, because melo has too much power. nobody but dolan could have created this self-destructive situation.

i am not saying the situation is hopeless, because jackson can exert some control over the situation, both with the coach he selects and, through the coach, how much playing time players get. we have seen glimpses of this with afflalo, a less expensive and much worse player than melo, who happen to have an opt-in clause. by demoting afflalo, rambis/jackson forces the issue.

bad melo has no control over who the knicks acquire along the lines of his own bad melo agenda, ie win now. that's a very good thing, because bad melo may be forced to ask for a trade if he doesn't like what jackson decides to do. good melo, however, the melo who has gotten paid, and who realizes he won't be able to have his cake and eat it too-- that good melo will just have to roll with jackson's agenda, and gracefully age into more of a pierce and ginobili role-- highly effective in increasingly reduced minutes.

or good melo could still ask to be traded to a contender-- in any of these scenarios the goal will remain the same: culture change and the quest to build something lasting.

who said the ntc is on dolan and not on phil? You seem to be a real phil homer and not that fair and balanced.

i'm making an educated guess.

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

callmened wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Also don't agree with trading proven commodities like Carmelo for question marks. You trade a Carmelo Anthony when you have his replacement ready. And no i'm not talking about KP as a franchise player. I am talking about another proven young productive player that plays his same position.

i think its a moot point anyways cuz he controls where he goes and i dont think he wants to leave ny. nevertheless, i dont necessarily prioritize replacing melo's production instantly. i prefer getting younger picks and then finding melo type of replacement talent in FA summer of 2018

the key to a successful franchise is ownership, management, and players being on the same page. what jackson is trying to do is, paraphrasing his words, is to create something lasting after he has retired. so his job is to create a culture for the knicks franchise that hasn't been in place or healthy.

ownership: dolan, even after finally admitting his ignorance and removing himself from the process, nonetheless seems to have meddled in a typically destructive way-- the ntc you alluded to with the "main" player.

the no-trade clause severely hampers what jackson can do, because melo has too much power. nobody but dolan could have created this self-destructive situation.

i am not saying the situation is hopeless, because jackson can exert some control over the situation, both with the coach he selects and, through the coach, how much playing time players get. we have seen glimpses of this with afflalo, a less expensive and much worse player than melo, who happen to have an opt-in clause. by demoting afflalo, rambis/jackson forces the issue.

bad melo has no control over who the knicks acquire along the lines of his own bad melo agenda, ie win now. that's a very good thing, because bad melo may be forced to ask for a trade if he doesn't like what jackson decides to do. good melo, however, the melo who has gotten paid, and who realizes he won't be able to have his cake and eat it too-- that good melo will just have to roll with jackson's agenda, and gracefully age into more of a pierce and ginobili role-- highly effective in increasingly reduced minutes.

or good melo could still ask to be traded to a contender-- in any of these scenarios the goal will remain the same: culture change and the quest to build something lasting.

who said the ntc is on dolan and not on phil? You seem to be a real phil homer and not that fair and balanced.

i'm making an educated guess.

Apparently you aren't. Phil has autonomy. Phil provided that no trade. All things bad isn't Dolan anymore.

or not. we'll have to wait for phil's tell-all memoir. meantime i'll stick to my account and you can stick with yours. that okay with you champ?