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The Bulls/Knicks trade
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Bonn1997
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If the issue becomes the deal-breaker, should Isiah replace Moochie with an Othella in the latest trade rumor?
Yes
No
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BRIGGS
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8/1/2004  8:46 PM
i hear what you are saying but like I said this is a two-way street, the bulls need a benefit. if indeed the bulls are willing to trade crawford to the knicks--it isnt for talent but for the most cap room they can get. the only way they can do that is if the knicks give them ending contracts--the fact that they are willing to take on andersen should seal the deal in this case for the knicks

i know what you are saying about taking on more constrictive salaries for players who arent worth it, but this is the business model they have now chosen to acquire players. If you figure andersen takes out 1 bad contract the deal really is one bad contract+ FW for Crawford.
It's a good deal because even if we adhere to what we believe are the Bulls demands, the incoming salary is only 5mm more--not including the cost of crawford. It saves the Bulls 8.5mm and gives them additional cap space next year without Norris's contract.
It sure is a LOT of money for the Knicks, I mean is a major league investment again because you are locking in another 80mm+ long term knowing that you already have 65 mm owed to H2O, but thats how it is with the Knicks. Im with you Id rather spend all this cash on a frontcourt player--they are going to eventually be forced away from trades like this.

RIP Crushalot😞
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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8/1/2004  8:50 PM
Id rather spend all this cash on a frontcourt player
I'd rather spend all the cash on both Craw and a frontcourt player and if you can wait 12 months and then 24 months when the Knicks have two sets of expiring contracts worth over 30 mil, I expect they'll get both.

Right now, Crawford is the best FA the Knicks can get at any position. Dampier is the only front court player that I could even understand someone saying they'd rather see the Knicks get than Crawford. (I'd disagree with it, but I could at least understand it.)

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 08/01/2004 20:51:40]
simrud
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8/1/2004  9:06 PM
Let me get this straight, we are seriously talking about comparing Shandon Anderson to Jamal Crawford???????????????????????????????

I don't care how old you are, what planet you come from, or whatever else about you man, but if you are going to seat there and compare Anderson to Crawford I just can't take you seriously.

As for Mooch, who cares if they take him or not. Like BRIGGS says why should the Bulls bend over for Iseah? There needs to be some sort of benefit for them. We can't have them take all of our crap. And just for the record, Anderson is a super scrub. He is one of the worst players in the NBA. Just watch freaking Knicks games, he blows. I can't think of a player that I hate more that ever played for the Knicks then Shanderson. The moment he is gone, I don't care how, I will celebrate like crazy.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
DefAndReb
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8/2/2004  11:47 AM
Posted by simrud:

Let me get this straight, we are seriously talking about comparing Shandon Anderson to Jamal Crawford???????????????????????????????

I don't care how old you are, what planet you come from, or whatever else about you man, but if you are going to seat there and compare Anderson to Crawford I just can't take you seriously.

As for Mooch, who cares if they take him or not. Like BRIGGS says why should the Bulls bend over for Iseah? There needs to be some sort of benefit for them. We can't have them take all of our crap. And just for the record, Anderson is a super scrub. He is one of the worst players in the NBA. Just watch freaking Knicks games, he blows. I can't think of a player that I hate more that ever played for the Knicks then Shanderson. The moment he is gone, I don't care how, I will celebrate like crazy.

If you cared to actually read my posts, you'd see I'm not comparing their talent levels or game, I'm comparing scenarios. At one time, Shandon was young and considered a talented swing guard, hyped for being a prominent member of the Western conf champs Utah 2 years running. He was a desirable young player. He got a big-azz contract and shot off his big mouth about his playing time, but he never played better than his Utah days. Crawford is a more athletic player, more explosive to the basket, but not as good a defender. Would I rather have Crawford than Anderson? I'm not on crack, dude, I think Shandon sucks, too. Would I sacrifice all our future trading pieces just to get Crawford? No way, he's just not that good.
Bonn1997
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8/2/2004  11:53 AM
I'm comparing scenarios.

It still doesn't look like there are any similarities in their scenarios other than than Jamal is young and Shandon was once young
DefAndReb
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8/2/2004  2:20 PM
Fine, you're being obtuse. You seem to think Isiah should stop at nothing to get a young but mediocre swing guard who is an okay SG and a not-so-great PG. I'm glad you're not the GM, given the Pollyanna-esque quality of your posts. You probably also think Sweetney is good enough to start on a strong team and KT makes a decent center and that Marbury is one of the best PG's in the game (being one of the best athletes at PG is not the same as being a good PG).

This team sucks. It has sucked since 1995-1996 season. They got lucky in 1999, and that was fun and all, but it gave management the false impression they were a contender, and only needed a tweak here and there.

The crazy thing is that the Knicks could conceivably win the Atlantic, thanks to the realignment and the Nets fire sale, once again giving the false impression that this team can compete for a title, which it cannot.

I'd rather this team sit on it until 2007, but that's not realistic for Dolan to sell tickets. I trust Isiah's judgement over a silly fanboy's any day, and it looks like he'll do the right thing and only do the deal if Paxson takes Moochie. Remember, Moochie's contract is Weatherspoon's contract, and he's about as useful a player to this organization as "hotdog neck" was. We lose Shandon's weak play, but get back Erobb's pathetic junk. Oh, but we get the most talented player in the deal, so we should do it! How talented?! So talented he lost his PG spot to Jalen "I only think I'm good" Rose and two different rookies. Fine, he's mostly a scorer. I'll laugh when Rip Hamilton lights him up. We need defenders people, not scorers. I'd much rather have five great defenders on the floor who can't shoot than the Dallas stinkin' Mavericks.

Crawford would improve the team, but only slightly. He's just not all that great, and most GM's around the league seem to agree. No one is trying hard to get this kid. He shows flashes, but so does the Bone Collector. Two years ago a bunch of wanks on this board were talking up Lee Nailon like he was Dr. J, now we've got Crawford being a potential All-Star. Uh huh, right. I'd rather keep Othella as a piece for getting a forward or center.

How are Shandon and Crawford the same? Easy. Neither is worth the money they are paid. End of discussion. See you all in the fall with yet another episode of "New Look Knicks - Same Old Story".
islesfan
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8/2/2004  3:02 PM
Posted by DefAndReb:

Fine, you're being obtuse. You seem to think Isiah should stop at nothing to get a young but mediocre swing guard who is an okay SG and a not-so-great PG. I'm glad you're not the GM, given the Pollyanna-esque quality of your posts. You probably also think Sweetney is good enough to start on a strong team and KT makes a decent center and that Marbury is one of the best PG's in the game (being one of the best athletes at PG is not the same as being a good PG).

This team sucks. It has sucked since 1995-1996 season. They got lucky in 1999, and that was fun and all, but it gave management the false impression they were a contender, and only needed a tweak here and there.

The crazy thing is that the Knicks could conceivably win the Atlantic, thanks to the realignment and the Nets fire sale, once again giving the false impression that this team can compete for a title, which it cannot.

I'd rather this team sit on it until 2007, but that's not realistic for Dolan to sell tickets. I trust Isiah's judgement over a silly fanboy's any day, and it looks like he'll do the right thing and only do the deal if Paxson takes Moochie. Remember, Moochie's contract is Weatherspoon's contract, and he's about as useful a player to this organization as "hotdog neck" was. We lose Shandon's weak play, but get back Erobb's pathetic junk. Oh, but we get the most talented player in the deal, so we should do it! How talented?! So talented he lost his PG spot to Jalen "I only think I'm good" Rose and two different rookies. Fine, he's mostly a scorer. I'll laugh when Rip Hamilton lights him up. We need defenders people, not scorers. I'd much rather have five great defenders on the floor who can't shoot than the Dallas stinkin' Mavericks.

Crawford would improve the team, but only slightly. He's just not all that great, and most GM's around the league seem to agree. No one is trying hard to get this kid. He shows flashes, but so does the Bone Collector. Two years ago a bunch of wanks on this board were talking up Lee Nailon like he was Dr. J, now we've got Crawford being a potential All-Star. Uh huh, right. I'd rather keep Othella as a piece for getting a forward or center.

How are Shandon and Crawford the same? Easy. Neither is worth the money they are paid. End of discussion. See you all in the fall with yet another episode of "New Look Knicks - Same Old Story".

great points! I especially enjoyed the obtuse line. Straight out of Shawshank.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/2/2004  4:03 PM
Well, DefandReb, you didn't quote anyone or say who you were responding to. So, I'll just assume you were calling Isles obtuse. After that, you lost me. Somehow Sweetney and Kurt Thomas and several former Knicks got into the discussion of whether the Knicks should rob the Bulls with the offer of expiring contracts plus Shandon for Jamal, E-Rob, and JYD.
islesfan
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8/5/2004  10:44 PM
In this poll most people disliked the idea of Othella being included as opposed to Moochie even though Shandon was still in the trade. Then when the real trade was announced, Moochie AND Shandon, as well as E-Rob on the Bulls side, were excluded while Othella went. That's pretty interesting. You'd think even more people would dislike this actual deal. Oh well, so much for these extremely unscientific polls.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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8/5/2004  11:00 PM
this trade has a clear downside. If Brad Miller or Jermain Oneil magicly become available to a team at the deadline for expiring contracts then we have no chips.

Based on Isiah's history and knowledge I assume he sees something in Crawford he really likes. I dont see how we ovberpaid for him when he getting less than Richardson, Arenas and Ginobili, and is being paid what Rip Hamilton is. Also JYD could be a very nice role player on this team.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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8/6/2004  12:36 AM
Posted by islesfan:

In this poll most people disliked the idea of Othella being included as opposed to Moochie even though Shandon was still in the trade. Then when the real trade was announced, Moochie AND Shandon, as well as E-Rob on the Bulls side, were excluded while Othella went. That's pretty interesting. You'd think even more people would dislike this actual deal. Oh well, so much for these extremely unscientific polls.
Maybe it's because people didn't realize the Knicks could give up the expiring contracts for Jamal and ALSO re-sign Vin and appear to have a good shot at Dampier. I have a hunch that if the poll asked, "Would you give up the four expiring contracts to get Jamal, knowing that Vin would re-sign for the LLE and Dampier might consider the MLE," you'd see as resounding support for the trade as there now is.
Knicksfan
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8/6/2004  12:49 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by islesfan:

In this poll most people disliked the idea of Othella being included as opposed to Moochie even though Shandon was still in the trade. Then when the real trade was announced, Moochie AND Shandon, as well as E-Rob on the Bulls side, were excluded while Othella went. That's pretty interesting. You'd think even more people would dislike this actual deal. Oh well, so much for these extremely unscientific polls.
Maybe it's because people didn't realize the Knicks could give up the expiring contracts for Jamal and ALSO re-sign Vin and appear to have a good shot at Dampier. I have a hunch that if the poll asked, "Would you give up the four expiring contracts to get Jamal, knowing that Vin would re-sign for the LLE and Dampier might consider the MLE," you'd see as resounding support for the trade as there now is.

I think that's true. Good points, Bonn.
Knicks_Fan
islesfan
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8/6/2004  9:35 AM
Even if we could instead use Othella to get Dampier (the one argument against this trade with Chicago that I can at least understand--though I don't agree with it), how can you pass on the chance to get rid of Shandon AND get a great role player like JYD AND get a combo guard with good to great upside?

You didn't seem to agree with the Dampier argument and we didn't even get rid of Shandon!

Maybe we should change the new trade poll to include speculation that the Knicks used up part of their MLE to re-sign Baker.

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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8/6/2004  10:32 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Even if we could instead use Othella to get Dampier (the one argument against this trade with Chicago that I can at least understand--though I don't agree with it), how can you pass on the chance to get rid of Shandon AND get a great role player like JYD AND get a combo guard with good to great upside?

You didn't seem to agree with the Dampier argument and we didn't even get rid of Shandon!
Huh? All I said was that Jamal would be a higher priority to me than Dampier; I never expected to get both but I always loved the thought of getting both
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