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The Bulls/Knicks trade
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Bonn1997
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If the issue becomes the deal-breaker, should Isiah replace Moochie with an Othella in the latest trade rumor?
Yes
No
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Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  6:24 PM
My vote is yes because I still think we're robbing them. We're still giving them the player with the worst contract (Shandon) and they're giving us the most talented player (Jamal). Plus I like JYD and don't mind taking him and I'm willing to wait 11 months and trade E-Rob when he has a valuable expiring contract.
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EnySpree
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7/29/2004  7:35 PM
Isiah should just give that wanna be executive Paxson what he wants so he can do right by the Bulls franchise and get his expiring contracts.....

Jamal Crawford is the quickest player at his height. Dude is streaky but you definately want him on your side when he gets hot. Jamal in a larger role on a winning team would easily make him an all-star......Marbury could break down cuz of the olympics. Crawford has a sick handle and he has Sprewell like energy on the court except Craw is a superb ball-handler....and-1 type handle.

Stop the BS already and just give in to the demands of Paxson or just leave it alone.....either you make the trade or you don't....move on already.....this is getting to be like a a bad relationship where you try to find away to hold on when you know it's a dead issue.
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TMS
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7/29/2004  8:13 PM
i would say yes unless by doing so it would nix a trade for Dampier, in which case i think i would rather throw in a future pick or something to entice the Bulls to take Moochie & also be able to pull of the Dampier deal.
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EnySpree
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7/29/2004  8:30 PM
Posted by TMS:

i would say yes unless by doing so it would nix a trade for Dampier, in which case i think i would rather throw in a future pick or something to entice the Bulls to take Moochie & also be able to pull of the Dampier deal.

Nah I think Crawford might have a bigger impact on the Knicks future than Dampier would.....Nazr is fine.....especially if the Knicks can sign Keon.

Crawford is a big talent....i don't think there is a player or team out there that can stop him once he's on....
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Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  8:59 PM
5 yes, 3 no. Why are the people who voted no not replying?
BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  9:00 PM
yes he's so unstoppable that he shot 38% on a bad team
he is so unstoppable that all these teams with massive cap room chose to not even consider him
heck hes so unstoppable his own team doesnt really want him!


don't get me wrong hes a nice player--but let's not over-rate him here. good 2Gs don't shoot 38% --his frame is very small making it difficult to guard most other 2Gs. Way to much emphasis has been put on him. and then the knicks insult the bulls intelligence with a stupid offer put into 25 different forms.


RIP Crushalot😞
s3231
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7/29/2004  9:06 PM
I just voted no. Isiah is doing the right thing. We could use a guy like Crawford but we need frontcourt help much more. People don't understand that Penny and Frank are good enough to fill that SG position if Allan gets injured. During the playoffs Tim was injured so we had to use Shandon more at the at the SG and SF positions. If Tim is healthy, then Ariza can back him up and we can use Penny and Frankie as backup guards. If Allan gets injured, Frank and Penny are good enough to fill that position. Adding someone like Jamal would be very nice for the right price, but we cannot just give away all of our trading assets when guys like Dampier and Antoine Walker are available. Lets make a run at those guys first.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  9:12 PM
I don't know where you and Isles are getting this notion that Isiah insulted the Bulls. Paxson and Isiah have been discussing potential trades for a long time now; if Paxson was insulted, he could just hang up the phone and say forget about any trade. BOTH of them have obviously invested a lot of personal time into the trade and I don't see why they would do that if they didn't both think that a deal, eventually, is workable.

As for Jamal's FG%, you're right; it wasn't good last year. He has great skills, though, which are important when evaluating a player as young as he is. Also, when you're 23, you have no strong scorers to pass to, the defense always collapses on you, and you're expected to carry a team on offense, you're going to end up forcing some bad shots. It's an entirely different scenario if he's playing with Steph, TT, and maybe Houston (if healthy). Plus we give up no players who are a part of our future in this trade and get one who can help us now (JYD) and one who can help both now and in the long-term.
Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  9:14 PM
Posted by s3231:

I just voted no. Isiah is doing the right thing. We could use a guy like Crawford but we need frontcourt help much more. People don't understand that Penny and Frank are good enough to fill that SG position if Allan gets injured.
I want Crawford for the next several years; I have a much longer focus than just this season and Isiah clearly does too since he's heavily targetting Jamal.
BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  9:29 PM
ive seen plenty of bad teams with great effecient scorers--how about Patrick Ewing? Jamal is a bit of a chucker on top of that he did play with eddie curry heinrich antonio davis etc.. if you ever watched the bulls you would know he was rarely doubled.

i like crawford, but im not over-rating him or making excuses for him. Hes a bit of a chucker with a skinny build with questionable character His best position IMHO is PG but he has to much of a scorers mentality
RIP Crushalot😞
Rich
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7/29/2004  9:33 PM
No. If Isiah caves on this deal, then other GMs may think he will cave in future trade negotiations.
s3231
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7/29/2004  9:39 PM
"I want Crawford for the next several years; I have a much longer focus than just this season and Isiah clearly does too since he's heavily targetting Jamal."





Yea but Jamal is a combo guard. He isn't even a natural SG. Frank and Stephon can play a good enough backcourt if Allan gets injured. I think if we get Jamal, it will probably be just for insurance if Allan gets injured. I don't think Jamal will be our SG of the future if we get him, Jamal himself even said that he is more of a PG in an interview. Guards are easier to come by then good big men. We will have many more opportunities to get a very good SG like next year when Penny and Tim's contracts expire. This team will not go anywhere unless we improve our frontcourt.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
BigSm00th
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7/29/2004  9:42 PM
I really think this deal has a 100% chance of happening, it's all a matter of what happens with Dampier. I guarantee that if Dampier signed with Atlanta tomorrow, the trade for Crawford would be done the next day.

Isiah is holding out b/c he wants to save an expiring contract to get Dampier. If and when that falls through, I expect the deal to go down.

How can you not like this deal? Anderson stinks, Moochie stinks, Othella stinks, Mutumbo is a decent shot blocker but nothing else. The Knicks get what would be the most athletic player on their team in ERob (though I don't like him, he's an expiring contract next year), a 24 yo G with good to great potential in Crawford, and a heck of a rebounder in JYD. They are giving up practically NOTHING.
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matt
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7/29/2004  9:51 PM
I voted no, for now. I think he should wait it out a little, Crawford wants to play for the Knicks and has cleary said he doesn't want tp play for the Bulls
s3231
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7/29/2004  9:58 PM
"How can you not like this deal? Anderson stinks, Moochie stinks, Othella stinks, Mutumbo is a decent shot blocker but nothing else. The Knicks get what would be the most athletic player on their team in ERob (though I don't like him, he's an expiring contract next year), a 24 yo G with good to great potential in Crawford, and a heck of a rebounder in JYD. They are giving up practically NOTHING."





I love the Crawford deal if we don't have to put all of our expiring contracts in it. Even if we do that, I will still like the deal but I just think Isiah should attempt to get frontcourt help first before putting all of our expiring contracts in a deal for Jamal and thats what I think he is doing right now.
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  11:10 PM
How can you not like this deal? Anderson stinks, Moochie stinks, Othella stinks, Mutumbo is a decent shot blocker but nothing else. The Knicks get what would be the most athletic player on their team in ERob (though I don't like him, he's an expiring contract next year), a 24 yo G with good to great potential in Crawford, and a heck of a rebounder in JYD. We are giving up practically NOTHING.
Great comments Bigsmooth; That's what I've been trying to say too. I don't think there is even one bad aspect of that trade. Look at each component of it:

1) We get Jamal a very talented young player.

2) We get JYD, a great role player whose energy and athleticism would have been great against K-Mart

3) We get E-Rob who has nice upside and in the worst case is gone in 11 months when he has an expiring contract

4) We get Rid of Shandon who is overpaid and fills no useful role

5) We get rid of Othella, who is a nice role player but is unnecessary on a team with Kurt, Sweetney, Vin Baker (probably), and JYD (if the trade occurs)

6) We get rid of Dikembe, who is a nice role player but is NOT a part of our future and can be reasonably replaced by Nazy, Vin, and one more role player (maybe Keon Clark).

Even if we could instead use Othella to get Dampier (the one argument against this trade with Chicago that I can at least understand--though I don't agree with it), how can you pass on the chance to get rid of Shandon AND get a great role player like JYD AND get a combo guard with good to great upside?
DefAndReb
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7/30/2004  10:21 AM
Crawford has been a huge disappointment ever since coming into the league. On a bad team, he's had every opportunity to be a go-to guy or a team leader, and he has failed. Only take a guy like this if you're not paying him too much. JYD is over-the-hill, even though I like his energy, but he's not going to have much impact unless he's off the bench - another overpaid bench warmer. ERobb is done. He may as well be named Lee Nailon.

Remember, Shandon was hyped young, and now look what you get. That could be Crawford in two years, and with an unmovable contract. There is no way Isiah can turn this team into a contender this season, even taking on ludicrous contracts where the team operates at a lower profit margin, which defeats the purpose of running a sports business. So why break the bank on an iffy swing guard?

For every Chauncey Billups (a big dud until recently) there are ten Travis Knight's. How much are you willing to risk that Crawford will defy the odds and suddenly become a consistent player? Remember, talent is a great lie - it's consistency that counts.

Sure, we'd all love to dump Anderson, but how much better is Crawford? Oh, sure, he may have one or two great performances, but he needs to have 60-70 to be worth clearing out all our trading power. Think, man, think. Crawford will NOT bring this team a championship. He will only provide a modest improvement over last year's squad. How much is a modest improvement worth?
Bonn1997
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7/30/2004  10:36 AM
Posted by DefAndReb:

Crawford has been a huge disappointment ever since coming into the league. On a bad team, he's had every opportunity to be a go-to guy or a team leader, and he has failed. Only take a guy like this if you're not paying him too much. JYD is over-the-hill, even though I like his energy, but he's not going to have much impact unless he's off the bench - another overpaid bench warmer. ERobb is done. He may as well be named Lee Nailon.

Remember, Shandon was hyped young, and now look what you get. That could be Crawford in two years, and with an unmovable contract. There is no way Isiah can turn this team into a contender this season, even taking on ludicrous contracts where the team operates at a lower profit margin, which defeats the purpose of running a sports business. So why break the bank on an iffy swing guard?

For every Chauncey Billups (a big dud until recently) there are ten Travis Knight's. How much are you willing to risk that Crawford will defy the odds and suddenly become a consistent player? Remember, talent is a great lie - it's consistency that counts.

Sure, we'd all love to dump Anderson, but how much better is Crawford? Oh, sure, he may have one or two great performances, but he needs to have 60-70 to be worth clearing out all our trading power. Think, man, think. Crawford will NOT bring this team a championship. He will only provide a modest improvement over last year's squad. How much is a modest improvement worth?
So you're basically saying your ability to evaluate whether a young PG/SG like Jamal has the skills and ability to succeed is better than the ability to reach that evaluation that legendary PGs like Isiah and Lenny have? That's quite a bold statement.
raven
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7/30/2004  10:43 AM
dampier is the target.

If we can't get him then we can do the craw trade and get something valuable for a bunch of crap.

Erob would be moved the next yr and Jwilliams is useful imo.
islesfan
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7/30/2004  11:10 AM
Posted by DefAndReb:

Crawford has been a huge disappointment ever since coming into the league. On a bad team, he's had every opportunity to be a go-to guy or a team leader, and he has failed. Only take a guy like this if you're not paying him too much. JYD is over-the-hill, even though I like his energy, but he's not going to have much impact unless he's off the bench - another overpaid bench warmer. ERobb is done. He may as well be named Lee Nailon.

Remember, Shandon was hyped young, and now look what you get. That could be Crawford in two years, and with an unmovable contract. There is no way Isiah can turn this team into a contender this season, even taking on ludicrous contracts where the team operates at a lower profit margin, which defeats the purpose of running a sports business. So why break the bank on an iffy swing guard?

For every Chauncey Billups (a big dud until recently) there are ten Travis Knight's. How much are you willing to risk that Crawford will defy the odds and suddenly become a consistent player? Remember, talent is a great lie - it's consistency that counts.

Sure, we'd all love to dump Anderson, but how much better is Crawford? Oh, sure, he may have one or two great performances, but he needs to have 60-70 to be worth clearing out all our trading power. Think, man, think. Crawford will NOT bring this team a championship. He will only provide a modest improvement over last year's squad. How much is a modest improvement worth?

That's just a great post.

So you're basically saying your ability to evaluate whether a young PG/SG like Jamal has the skills and ability to succeed is better than the ability to reach that evaluation that legendary PGs like Isiah and Lenny have? That's quite a bold statement.

Michael Jordan was a pretty good player, so how come his ability as a talent evaluator was pretty questionable? Didn't MJ let a pretty good SG in Rip Hamilton go? Gee, I guess being a great player is a lot different than being a great executive and comparing the skill sets necessary to be either is like comparing apples to oranges.
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