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the big and final sticking point in Crawford deal
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TMS
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7/29/2004  9:42 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
The Knicks may have improved their chances of acquiring Erick Dampier by offering Kurt Thomas in the proposed deal for the Warriors' free-agent center, according to a league source.
They have Troy Murphy at PF. Why would they kill their cap room over the next 4 years on a 32 yr old PF who is not even a significant upgrade?

maybe because they think he's a good player not making alot of money & because Troy Murphy has been injury prone in his short career?

they don't need Nazr anymore because they have Dale Davis...KT could be a good veteran backup for TMurph & would easily fill in if he went down to an injury.

i'm not saying they'll do this deal, only that it does have its merits & you never know what Mullin is planning on doing over there...some of his moves certainly haven't made a whole lot of sense, signing Foyle & Fisher to those bloated contracts.
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Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  9:53 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
The Knicks may have improved their chances of acquiring Erick Dampier by offering Kurt Thomas in the proposed deal for the Warriors' free-agent center, according to a league source.
They have Troy Murphy at PF. Why would they kill their cap room over the next 4 years on a 32 yr old PF who is not even a significant upgrade?

maybe because they think he's a good player not making alot of money & because Troy Murphy has been injury prone in his short career?

they don't need Nazr anymore because they have Dale Davis...KT could be a good veteran backup for TMurph & would easily fill in if he went down to an injury.

i'm not saying they'll do this deal, only that it does have its merits & you never know what Mullin is planning on doing over there...some of his moves certainly haven't made a whole lot of sense, signing Foyle & Fisher to those bloated contracts.

I'm not saying it won't happen; I'm saying I'm skeptical because killing your cap room on Kurt for the next 4 years (while he's 32 to 36) makes no sense. From his perspective why not get Stro Swift for LESS money than Kurt? We're relying on Mullin being dumb. I don't think you can cite one dumb decision and say, "I guess this dumb move rumored in the Post (or whatever paper) really could happen."
raven
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7/29/2004  10:26 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

We're relying on Mullin being dumb.

May I remind you that we're talking about the guy who gave bloated contracts to adonal foyle and dereck ficher in less than 10 days ?


[Edited by - raven on 07/29/2004 10:56:03]
TMS
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7/29/2004  10:51 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I'm not saying it won't happen; I'm saying I'm skeptical because killing your cap room on Kurt for the next 4 years (while he's 32 to 36) makes no sense. From his perspective why not get Stro Swift for LESS money than Kurt? We're relying on Mullin being dumb. I don't think you can cite one dumb decision and say, "I guess this dumb move rumored in the Post (or whatever paper) really could happen."

GS already used up its MLE on Derek Fisher if i'm not mistaken...& there's no way that Stromile Swift would sign any contract at a MLE level, because the Grizzlies would definitely match it...if he's going anywhere, it's going to be to ATL as a FA, or as part of a sign & trade to a team that's offering an impact player that Jerry West covets...if he's included as part of a sign & trade for Dampier, then it will be for alot more money than KT is making.
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Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  11:03 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I'm not saying it won't happen; I'm saying I'm skeptical because killing your cap room on Kurt for the next 4 years (while he's 32 to 36) makes no sense. From his perspective why not get Stro Swift for LESS money than Kurt? We're relying on Mullin being dumb. I don't think you can cite one dumb decision and say, "I guess this dumb move rumored in the Post (or whatever paper) really could happen."

GS already used up its MLE on Derek Fisher if i'm not mistaken...& there's no way that Stromile Swift would sign any contract at a MLE level, because the Grizzlies would definitely match it...if he's going anywhere, it's going to be to ATL as a FA, or as part of a sign & trade to a team that's offering an impact player that Jerry West covets...if he's included as part of a sign & trade for Dampier, then it will be for alot more money than KT is making.

Let's look at the deal from their perspective. If they actually were going to spend $76 mil over the next six years ($36 mil over 4 years on Kurt including his 20% trade kicker and $40 mil on Foyle over six years), wouldn't they have forgotten about Foyle and Kurt and given $60 mil (that's probably all it would take) to Dampier, who is clearly the best of these three players we're discussing, and still saved the remaining $16 mil or spent it on another free agent? If they were going to spend $76 mil on PF/Cs, I think they would have approached the entire summer differently, making Dampier their first option. Like I said when I questioned the Nazy and Othella deal (in the Zone forums), I hope I'm dead wrong because I would love to get Dampier.
BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  11:05 AM
the bulls wont trade us crawford because we arent giving them enough. after two months and 100 different scenarios, the knicks just wont give the Bulls the reasonable request they made---hence there is no deal and not likely to be one. either we give them harrington williams deke and othella or we dont have a deal. if the knicks havent capitualted to the demand-then they wont. the trade proposal the knicks offer give very little. to give up crawford the bulls want ending contracts including FW+3mm. the word impatient in a transaction like this is moot. It's either the Knicks will capitulate to the Bulls demands or they won't. It isnt going to hurt the Bulls if they dont do anything. The person in the driver seat is the Bulls Jamal craford will risk going into the season with a 1 year 3mm $ contract and the knicks lose out on opportunity to get a young player. Case closed.
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djsunyc
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7/29/2004  11:17 AM
capitulate?

let's keep this at a 4th grade reading/writing level, shall we?

isiah proposed his deal and paxson doesn't want it. end of story. who knows what the exact deal/players being discussed are. no loss of sleep here. although i like crawford alot, isiah may be better off holding on to the $10 mil in expiring deals and waiting till the deadline.
TMS
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7/29/2004  11:22 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the bulls wont trade us crawford because we arent giving them enough. after two months and 100 different scenarios, the knicks just wont give the Bulls the reasonable request they made---hence there is no deal and not likely to be one. either we give them harrington williams deke and othella or we dont have a deal. if the knicks havent capitualted to the demand-then they wont. the trade proposal the knicks offer give very little. to give up crawford the bulls want ending contracts including FW+3mm. the word impatient in a transaction like this is moot. It's either the Knicks will capitulate to the Bulls demands or they won't. It isnt going to hurt the Bulls if they dont do anything. The person in the driver seat is the Bulls Jamal craford will risk going into the season with a 1 year 3mm $ contract and the knicks lose out on opportunity to get a young player. Case closed.

well everyone...BRIGGS has officially declared this case closed...let's all log off now.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/29/2004  11:27 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Let's look at the deal from their perspective. If they actually were going to spend $76 mil over the next six years ($36 mil over 4 years on Kurt including his 20% trade kicker and $40 mil on Foyle over six years), wouldn't they have forgotten about Foyle and Kurt and given $60 mil (that's probably all it would take) to Dampier, who is clearly the best of these three players we're discussing, and still saved the remaining $16 mil or spent it on another free agent? If they were going to spend $76 mil on PF/Cs, I think they would have approached the entire summer differently, making Dampier their first option. Like I said when I questioned the Nazy and Othella deal (in the Zone forums), I hope I'm dead wrong because I would love to get Dampier.

looking at things from GS's perspective, why would they lock Adonal Foyle up to the contract they did & allow their best C to opt out of his deal & not offer him a contract extension? why would they lock up Derek Fisher to the contract they did? do those moves make any sense whatsoever? not to me...obviously they don't think as highly of Dampier as we may, or else they would have signed him outright & not be putzing around w/this whole sign & trade business...either that, or they knew that Dampier wouldn't re-sign w/them from the very beginning

[Edited by - TMS on 07/29/2004 11:30:41]
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islesfan
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7/29/2004  11:30 AM
The $3M that Isiah is offering the Bulls is similar to the Lucky C-Note that the Rosato Brothers offered to Frank Pentangeli in The Godfather Part 2. It's an insult. In the world of professional sports it's not a great deal of money and it's not like that money is taken off the cap which is the Bulls biggest concern.

I don't think that this deal is dead but I think that if it's going to get done it'll have to be done on the Bulls terms with Norris being left out of it and Othella being put in.

It's amazing, all this back and forth for a $10M backup for their 2 highest paid players.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/29/2004  11:42 AM
I don't think $3 mil cash considerations (the max you're allowed to give) are viewed as an insult; they're actually included in MANY trades, including the one that brought Stephon Marbury here.

If we have to replace Norris and the $3 mil with Othella, I'd very gladly do it and eventually I think Isiah will too. (We'd still be getting the most talented player in the 8 player deal--Jamal--and they'd still get the one with the worst contract--Shandon)
BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  11:44 AM
someone had to step up:>)


i've come to reasonable conclusion that this is no longer a viable deal since the knicks wont go past the sticking point.

Im thinking about different guys we can obtain---and although i dont like small players, dajuan wagner has enough skill and speed to deserve a shot. i think he could fit the bill as a nice 6th man--a player like david wesley but with more speed. i'd say we move in that direction before we sit back and let to many things happen while being fixated on one player that we wont give a fair trade for.
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fishmike
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7/29/2004  11:54 AM
I would rather just give that role to Frank... go to him at the 1/2 for defense and ball handling. he's shown he can guard bigger players and score in spurts as well. I dont want anymore wing players unless Shandon is gone or its next year and Penny is in his walk year.

At this point I'm even moving KT back to center because Nazr offers a little more athleticism than Kurt and thats about it. Start Sweetney at 4 unless he totally stinks in Oct. Nazr can be the first big off the bench.
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BigSm00th
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7/29/2004  12:05 PM
I think Frank Williams will serve that role of 6th man when the trade goes down.

If anybody thinks Allan Houston is healthy after Isiah has spent so much time on this, you're crazy. Houston either isn't healthy or won't be healthy enough to play an entire season, that's why Crawford wants to be a Knick and thats why the Knicks want him.

I'd imagine the 3 guard rotation of Marbury, Crawford, and Williams, with Houston on the IL. If he's not, his minutes should be reduced greatly.

Giving $3 mil. in a deal to make contracts work isn't an insult at all, it's essentially paying for a contract like you do in baseball. The Bulls have to pay Norris 1 year and Anderson 2 years, instead of JYD and ERob both 2 years at a higher price.
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islesfan
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7/29/2004  12:29 PM
It's an insult when the sticking point is cap money and not actual money. The Bulls basically declined Isiah's offer and Isiah came back and said "Ok, here's $3M for you to make the deal." Bribing somebody like that is pretty insulting.

Including money in a deal is fine but as a bribe for making a deal that a team has already declined is insulting.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  12:33 PM
people dont understand that there is no great incentive here to do the deal

just think about it from the Bulls perspective

they are giving up Crawford who has a salary of 3.5mm--it doesnt matter what the knicks would be willing to pay him. in the worst case scenario the bulls would have a first year salary of 4.8mm from the mle, but if they are trading him that is moot.

so you are talking
3.5 for craw
32mm for williams and e-rob
for a total of 35.5mm

the knicks want them to take back
andersen 3 years 25 mm
deke 1 4.8mm
williams 1 year 1mm
norris 8mm for an aggregate of 39mm subtract the 3mm from the cash considerations and you have an even money deal

it doesnt take a brain scientist to figure out that this has no chance of getting done. subtracting for othella and keeping the 3mm in cash atleast saves them roughly 5mm--still a low figure. i dont give much valididty to this deal in almost any form--it doesnt make much sense. i guess if chicago saves 5mm gets FW and swaps andersen who they likely value higher than the other two guys--it's worth it to them but the only way it gets done is with expiring contracts cash consideration. since it hasnt been done it's not likely it will get done.
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Andrew
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7/29/2004  12:44 PM
I think part of the Bulls incentive is to rid themselves of 2 players (ERob and JYD) that the coach doesn't like and have reportedly caused problems for the team.

If I were Isiah I'd try a little longer and then sign Crawford to a mid level deal with a player option after year 1 and see if the Bulls match. If they do you try for Crawford mext year when he opts out.
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BRIGGS
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7/29/2004  1:01 PM
you can only sign a deal where you can opt out after year 3 if its a 6 year deal
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Andrew
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7/29/2004  1:03 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

you can only sign a deal where you can opt out after year 3 if its a 6 year deal

And if it is less than a 6 year deal would that be ok?
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fishmike
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7/29/2004  1:31 PM
Briggs... there is probably political stuff also. How many Bulls also have Aaron Goodwin for an agent? This stuff matters... if Eddie Curry and Tyson Chandler have the same agent he can make life miserable for the Bulls.

Also how much of what you read do you believe? You know you have to take everything that comes from the Post with a grain (bag) of salt.

Getting Crawford for 6 years $42mm is a good deal. Getting rid of Shandon is a better one.

Use the $3mm and the roster space to buy out Moochie. Wash needs a veteran PG that can get their young bigs involved.. send him there.
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