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if the knicks stay realtively healthy next year
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islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:14 PM
Posted by TheloniusMonk:

"I'd blow it up completely. Rebuild from the ground up by doing whatever they could to get under the cap and collect draft picks and young players with talent. I'd much rather stink for a few years while positioning ourselves to make some big moves"

If you've been following New York sports for any amount of years you'd understand that that's impossible in this market. The plan you're talking about is incompatable with the New York money machine. You may be able to take that game plan to Memphis or a city like that. With that said, what would be your plan B if you were running the Knicks...obviously plan A wouldn't make the cut.

Not really. Frankly I find that to be a bunch of B.S. I hate when columnists and talk radio people say that about NY. Personally I think NYers are more sophisticated than that. Look at the Yankees. They stunk in the early 90's after George was suspended and took the time to build up their farm system instead of depending on signing questionable free agents. How did that work out?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:18 PM
I didn't ask you whether you liked the players on our team so I could set you up with them

What are you, 10?

You asked which players I liked and I told you which players I liked. If you wanted a more specific answer then you should have said so.

I'm not sure how you plan on getting Walker, Crawford and Dampier but I'll play along. No, I don't think that's a good team. If you let them play with 5 basketballs, maybe, but having a bunch of players who need the ball and don't play much defense doesn't make me believe they're legitimate contenders.

[Edited by - islesfan on 07/26/2004 22:24:20]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
simrud
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7/26/2004  10:24 PM
Man, how many times are we gonna argue about this.

Does it really matter how you rebuild? As long as you get star players, get rid of old overpaid ones, and improve your team record/playoff advancement in the process and keep it entertaining, what more can you ask for?

So far we got Marbury for picks, prospects, expiring deals, whil also dumping some garbage (Eisly). We traded a cancer at PF in Fatspoon for Mooch, whose last year is not guaranteed, cutting down on the years of commitment to garbage. Brining in Craw would bring a great promising young stud, while sheddin once again garbage (Anderson and expiring deals) and gettin E-Rob and JYD who will expire in 2 yeas right along with Houston.

We are lookin at Penny, TT, E-Rob, JYD, Houston, Mooch, all coming of the book by '07. That is 2 max deals, 1 near max deal, and 3 rather large veteran deals.

At the same time we would be retaining onley Marbury and Crawfard as the two money guys, Marbury with a max, and Craw at like 8mil a year. That's acceptable for a very very good backcourt. Cause by them Craw will be in the starting linep putting up 16pts, 4ass, 3rbs, 1stls etc.

Throw in Sweetney resigned for a reasonable price, and FW along with Ariza and Demarr also resigned on the chip, we'd be in great shape with the guys on the contract.

We will have plenty of cap to go after a servecable C and a servecable SF, basically a shotblocker/rebounder and a defender with range on his J.

Pick up a guy with the MLE and the LLE to solidify the frontcourt and you a set.

C Cap FA/MLE-LLE FA
PF Sweetney/MLE-LLE FA
SF Cap FA/Ariza
SG Craw/Demarr
PG Marbs/FW

There is your plan. One out of many possible ones.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  10:25 PM
Hey, don't get your panties in a bunch - I was just kidding. You said that "its not about liking the players on the team" but "rather the direction of the team" as if they were mutually exclusive. They are not - so I was just pointing at that. I am sorry if you were offended though.
Nevertheless, what do you think about the team in the previous post?
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
djsunyc
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7/26/2004  10:25 PM
dun, dun, dun...another one bites the dust

and i was starting to like this board too...

can you name specific teams and years that blew it all up and then got to the championship level within the next 3-4 years?
BRIGGS
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7/26/2004  10:27 PM
no you cant trade consecutive number 1 picks thats why we have one next year otherwise it would already be gone.

this topic is not an isiah bash it's an open ended question to a potential reality. when i look at things i take into account where this team is in position to others. what we need to position ourselves above these teams. IF[and if is a bad case scenario---the other side is a serious uptick in record and playoff success] but this topic is about being stuck in a myriad of mediocrity.

By the way I view this draft as a very nice one with many impact players. I view rebuilding as getting 6-7 guys all around the same age to form a core[under the age of 25] who can hopefully play together for 8-10 years.
RIP Crushalot😞
islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:35 PM
Wrong, Isles; you CAN trade consecutive #1 picks (in fact the Knicks did just that to get Marbury); you just can't trade consecutive 2nd rd picks

I could have sworn that you couldn't but ok, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. How did they trade consecutive picks for Marbury? They traded next years pick? I thought it was a future #1, meaning not next year but sometime after that.

You conveniently forgot that we got Marbury with expiring contracts; if that's the kind of player we continue to get, you can call them questionnable all you want; I'll be very happy to be adding stars every year with expiring contracts like the Marbury trade.

How am I forgetting that we used up some big expiring contracts to get Marbury when I'm the one who's always saying that they gave up a ton of tradeable assets to get him? It seems that you're the one forgetting that we gave up a lot more than just expiring contracts to get Marbury and we don't have an indefinite supply of young prospects and #1 picks to throw in to those kinds of deals every year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:48 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

dun, dun, dun...another one bites the dust

and i was starting to like this board too...

can you name specific teams and years that blew it all up and then got to the championship level within the next 3-4 years?

I'm starting to like this board too.

Denver blew it up and now they look like they're going to be contenders pretty soon. The Spurs tanked a season to put themselves into position to get Duncan and that led to 2 championships.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  10:48 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

dun, dun, dun...another one bites the dust

and i was starting to like this board too...
He and one or two other posters annoyed people on the msg boards so much with their indiscriminate criticism of Isiah that people left the boards to post elsewhere; he'll have the same effect here if you give it enough time
islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:50 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

no you cant trade consecutive number 1 picks thats why we have one next year otherwise it would already be gone.

That's what I thought. Wasn't it because some owner back in the 80's (maybe the Cavs or Hawks) was trading his #1 picks every year for crappy old stars and basically destroying his franchise?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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7/26/2004  10:50 PM
i'm the first one to admit isiah overpaid (at the time) for marbury but that one move changed the entire state of the team. we were no longer made up of a team who put the entire weight on a pair of torn up knees and a pg tandem of eisley and ward. AND we still got a stud point guard out of it. the 2nd best in the league and a strong possibility to take over if kidd is gimpy.

hindsight is always 20/20 but so far, it turns out that the deal was in effect eisley, lampe, and a #1 (no milos b/c he's afraid to fly) for marbury, penny, and a $1.5 mil expiring deal now. that's not a bad deal considering the other options at the time were reef (whom i hate) and sheed (who is a huge gamble). and if we stayed put, then ward + dice's $14 mil would've been useless and we would've still been WAY over the cap. we still would've had lampe and milos but it looks like milos will never make it here and lampe is still a ways away to getting to even sweetney level. BUT our pg would've still been eisley and we would've had to go through an ugly offseason with dice.

i think it was a very positive first 1/2 year by isiah. if we didn't have both TT and h20 on the bench in the playoffs, we would've probably won 2 and maybe even pushed it to a game 7.

as far as pheonix goes...they wanted to go for broke and get kobe. that failed. they did pick up nash, but for an OBSCENE amount of money (even for cuban). so in effect, marbury was replaced with an older PG who's known for breaking down at the end of the season and the playoffs. was it a good trade for pheonix? only time will tell...just like with isiah.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/26/2004 22:56:10]
islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:53 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:

dun, dun, dun...another one bites the dust

and i was starting to like this board too...
He and one or two other posters annoyed people on the msg boards so much with their indiscriminate criticism of Isiah that people left the boards to post elsewhere; he'll have the same effect here if you give it enough time

That's slanderous, why would you say such a thing?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  10:54 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by djsunyc:

dun, dun, dun...another one bites the dust

and i was starting to like this board too...
He and one or two other posters annoyed people on the msg boards so much with their indiscriminate criticism of Isiah that people left the boards to post elsewhere; he'll have the same effect here if you give it enough time

That's slanderous, why would you say such a thing?
It's what people told me; sorry if it hurts
islesfan
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7/26/2004  10:56 PM
It's what people told me; sorry if it hurts

So not only is it slanderous but its hearsay as well.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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7/26/2004  10:58 PM
let's get back to the topic at hand...thanks.
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  11:04 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

no you cant trade consecutive number 1 picks thats why we have one next year otherwise it would already be gone.

Really? That's PERFECT. The Knicks got out of this year's draft, which was considered very weak (and actually managed to get someone in the 2nd round that GMs are regretting not taking in the 1st round). And now you're saying the Knicks do have a pick in next year's draft, which is expected to be very strong because many of the international players (28 actually) who pulled out at the last minute this year will be in the draft next year.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/26/2004 23:05:05]
BRIGGS
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7/26/2004  11:05 PM
it would've been dilligent to keep Lampe, i do not believe for one second that enough time was put into that particular part of the equation, nor do i believe for one second that lampe was a deal breaker because the trade was motivated by money on the suns part. that being said i personally like how many things have gone so far under isiah. you have to give him reasonable time and space. there is no doubt he is under pressure to win now, so every judgement cannot be evaluated completely fair. That being said he has turned over the roster--taken on tremendous salaries-and may continue to do so--which could leave him in a perilous corner. we'll wait to judge and PS--> lets hope that antoine walker isnt traded for and given a 5 year 50$ that would be the ultimate red flag
RIP Crushalot😞
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  11:08 PM
Isles, you will gain more credibility if you actually answer some questions. Again, what do you think about our present team + Walker + Crawford + Dampier?

On a side note, Bill Clinton was absolutely incredible tonight with his speech at the DNC.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  11:10 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

it would've been dilligent to keep Lampe, i do not believe for one second that enough time was put into that particular part of the equation, nor do i believe for one second that lampe was a deal breaker because the trade was motivated by money on the suns part. that being said i personally like how many things have gone so far under isiah. you have to give him reasonable time and space. there is no doubt he is under pressure to win now, so every judgement cannot be evaluated completely fair. That being said he has turned over the roster--taken on tremendous salaries-and may continue to do so--which could leave him in a perilous corner. we'll wait to judge and PS--> lets hope that antoine walker isnt traded for and given a 5 year 50$ that would be the ultimate red flag
We weren't around when Isiah was talking with the Suns; so, we don't know what the specifics were about Lampe. As for Walker, if we do get him, I suspect his expiring contract will be traded by the trade deadline unless Walker has an unbelievable all-star/borderline MVP season.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  11:21 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Isles, you will gain more credibility if you actually answer some questions. Again, what do you think about our present team + Walker + Crawford + Dampier?

Ummm, didn't I answer that about an hour ago?

"I'm not sure how you plan on getting Walker, Crawford and Dampier but I'll play along. No, I don't think that's a good team. If you let them play with 5 basketballs, maybe, but having a bunch of players who need the ball and don't play much defense doesn't make me believe they're legitimate contenders."

It was in the post when I asked if you were 10.

Since I did answer your question, does that mean that I have credibility now?

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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