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if the knicks stay realtively healthy next year
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Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  4:39 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

I don't understand how there is such a discrepancy over the definition of the word, "rebuild." If by rebuilding you mean making significant changes to improve the team, every team is trying to do that except San Antonio, Sacramento, Indiana, Detroit and Minnesota. These teams are already very good. Teams that have assets can trade or sign free agents and draft, teams that don't have assets can only draft. Simple as that. If you have assets and can improve more quickly via trades or signings, drafting players is not an absolute necessity.
I view rebuilding as trying to get young talented players who can help you for many years (like Marbury, Sweetney, and hopefully Jamal Crawford)
AUTOADVERT
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  4:44 PM
Im not opposed to that definition. But, if you're going by that, every team in the league should constantly be rebuilding. There is never a disadvantage to adding and developing young talented players.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
TMS
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7/26/2004  5:23 PM
you guys don't know anything! rebuilding is only good when you trade away all your veteran players & get as many draft picks as possible.

look how successful the Bulls, Hawks & Clippers have been! it's the only way to go!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  7:21 PM
Turning over your roster with lateral moves that don't get you out of mediocrity isn't rebuilding to me.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  7:36 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Turning over your roster with lateral moves that don't get you out of mediocrity isn't rebuilding to me.
I agree; that's why I'm so glad that that is NOT what Isiah is doing. No knowledgable fan could claim that replacing Ward and Eisley with Marbury is a lateral move or that replacing Shandon with Jamal Crawford (if the deal goes through) is a lateral move; they're both huge upgrades. Most GMs cannot make that kind of upgrade even once. If Isiah makes that kind degree of upgrade twice in about 7 months, I'll be extremely impressed with his rebuilding/upgrading the roster with young talent while avoiding lateral moves.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  8:51 PM
Ward and Eisley were traded for Marbury? Anderson would be traded straight up for Crawford? We traded a ton to get Marbury and we'd be giving up some of our best tradeable assets for Crawford. Now throw in the bad contracts that put us hopelessly over the cap for the next decade and it looks like a lateral move if we only become a 1st rd and out team every year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  9:06 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Ward and Eisley were traded for Marbury? Anderson would be traded straight up for Crawford? We traded a ton to get Marbury and we'd be giving up some of our best tradeable assets for Crawford. Now throw in the bad contracts that put us hopelessly over the cap for the next decade and it looks like a lateral move if we only become a 1st rd and out team every year.
If we add one young star each year at a new position, I couldn't care less about being over the cap. And if we add one young star each year by repeating Marbury type trades, you can't expect the team to be only a 1st round team.


And it's becoming clear now that we traded VERY LITTLE for Marbury; we gave up the 16th pick in a very weak draft (which would be like an early 2nd rd pick in a strong draft), a center with some potential in Lampe, a PG who will probably never come to the US, and a 1st rd pick for next year. We also got a great role player who will soon have an awesome expiring contract in Penny. (Because of his soon-to-be-expiring contract and team-first attitude, I'm very glad Penny was included in the trade.)
Anderson would be traded straight up for Crawford?

You're right; we'd also be getting an awesome role player in JYD and a soon expiring contract in E-Rob and be getting rid of veterans we don't need. It's actually much better than an Anderson for Crawford deal.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/26/2004 21:09:31]

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/26/2004 21:12:11]
TMS
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7/26/2004  9:11 PM
how many times do you 2 have to argue the EXACT same topic w/each other before you realize that you 2 will never agree on this topic?

[Edited by - TMS on 07/26/2004 21:11:31]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  9:17 PM
If we add one young star each year at a new position, I couldn't care less about being over the cap.

Yes, because it's just so easy to add one young star every year at a new position, especially when you're hopelessly over the cap and used most of your trading chips (young players and #1 draft picks) in the first trade.

how many times do you 2 have to argue the EXACT same topic w/each other before you realize that you 2 will never agree on this topic?

I don't know, how many are we up to?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  9:24 PM
Posted by TMS:

how many times do you 2 have to argue the EXACT same topic w/each other before you realize that you 2 will never agree on this topic?

[Edited by - TMS on 07/26/2004 21:11:31]

I already realize that he'll always hate Isiah no matter how steadily the Knicks continue to improve. It'll be fun to see the Isiah bashers become more and more frustrated as the team continues to improve
islesfan
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7/26/2004  9:24 PM
You're right; we'd also be getting an awesome role player in JYD and a soon expiring contract in E-Rob and be getting rid of veterans we don't need. It's actually much better than an Anderson for Crawford deal.

Wow, now I can't wait to get a one dimensional backup for $10 million a year for 7 years.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  9:26 PM
Yes, because it's just so easy to add one young star every year at a new position,
yup; all you need are expiring contracts and draft picks after next summer the Knicks have an indefinite # to offer in trades) or young players to offer
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  9:32 PM
Just curious, Islesfan, what would your plans be to improve the team?
And, are there any players on our team you like?
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  9:37 PM
Indefinite? They owe the Suns 1 more and since you can't trade consecutive #1 picks that means the Knicks can't trade their pick the year before or after that pick. That's one 3 year stretch and if they trade another you can take the picks the year before and after that one off the market as well. It's hardly an indefinite supply.

As for expiring contracts, all they get you are players whose current teams don't want to re-sign. Questionable players like Dampier, Crawford and Walker who inevitably become overpaid albatrosses that destroy your cap.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  9:42 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Indefinite? They owe the Suns 1 more and since you can't trade consecutive #1 picks

Wrong, Isles; you CAN trade consecutive #1 picks (in fact the Knicks did just that to get Marbury); you just can't trade consecutive 2nd rd picks


As for expiring contracts, all they get you are players whose current teams don't want to re-sign. Questionable players like Dampier, Crawford and Walker who inevitably become overpaid albatrosses that destroy your cap.

You conveniently forgot that we got Marbury with expiring contracts; if that's the kind of player we continue to get, you can call them questionnable all you want; I'll be very happy to be adding stars every year with expiring contracts like the Marbury trade.
TMS
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7/26/2004  9:42 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Just curious, Islesfan, what would your plans be to improve the team?
And, are there any players on our team you like?

my guess would be whatever Isiah does but the exact opposite.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  9:42 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Just curious, Islesfan, what would your plans be to improve the team?
And, are there any players on our team you like?
Don't ask him such a hard question; he comes here just to bash Isiah.
islesfan
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7/26/2004  9:54 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Just curious, Islesfan, what would your plans be to improve the team?
And, are there any players on our team you like?

I'd blow it up completely. Rebuild from the ground up by doing whatever they could to get under the cap and collect draft picks and young players with talent. I'd much rather stink for a few years while positioning ourselves to make some big moves (with cap space, draft picks and young talent) in 3-4 years than be mediocre with only expiring contracts to improve ourselves because we're hopelessly capped out. Nobody should be untouchable, including Marbury.

I really like Sweetney, I like Marbury, I like Houston, I like FW. It's not about liking players on the team, it's about liking the direction of the team as it hopefully becomes a legitimate championship contender. At this rate I see Dolan being content with being a 1st rd and out team as long as he gets his playoff sellouts.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TheloniusMonk
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7/26/2004  10:03 PM
"I'd blow it up completely. Rebuild from the ground up by doing whatever they could to get under the cap and collect draft picks and young players with talent. I'd much rather stink for a few years while positioning ourselves to make some big moves"

If you've been following New York sports for any amount of years you'd understand that that's impossible in this market. The plan you're talking about is incompatable with the New York money machine. You may be able to take that game plan to Memphis or a city like that. With that said, what would be your plan B if you were running the Knicks...obviously plan A wouldn't make the cut.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  10:13 PM
It's not about liking players on the team, it's about liking the direction of the team as it hopefully becomes a legitimate championship contender.

I didn't ask you whether you liked the players on our team so I could set you up with them, I asked if you liked them to gauge your assessment of their trade value. And the reason I want to know that is because I would like to know who you would like to obtain in exchange.
Another comment of yours by which I was intrigued was that you think it is necessary for us to stink for 4 years in order to become legitimate contenders. On another thread, I posted that "rebuilding" can be accomplished relatively quickly by maximally utilizing economic assets and scouting talented young players. Suppose, for a second, that we end up with a group including Marbury, Houston, Crawford, Tim Thomas, Ant. Walker, Dampier and Sweetney. That is a good team, right? Or is it not?
I think that team is a legitimate contender.
In terms of blowing up the team, Im not sure what that accomplishes or guarantees. Please be more specific as to what you would "blow" up and who you would target.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
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