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3 million + a year for Baker?
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Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  10:16 AM
Posted by VDesai:

Calm down Nalod. BTW, the heart surgery thing was only picked up by 1 paper and people in Vin Baker's camp denied that it happened.

Really? Do you have links to the articles where they denied it?
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raven
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7/26/2004  10:25 AM
never heard of baker denying the surgery.

And i really think he's worth the risk.
VDesai
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7/26/2004  10:42 AM
Could swear I saw something on ESPN.com or Hoopshype the next day that had Goodwin denying the reports, but couldn't find anything...guess I have a poor memory. The only thing I could find was this Newsday article that said the Knicks had no comment on the Post report and that team doctors hadn't examined him all offseason. I do know that the Post was the only NY paper that picked that surgery story up.

http://www.nynewsday.com/sports/basketball/ny-spknix113888383jul11,0,2516964.story?coll=ny-basketball-headlines
VDesai
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7/26/2004  10:45 AM
Even with the surgery (which we don't really know how major or minor it was and how much recovery time it needs), how much of his game do you think can he reclaim at his age? I'd hope he can score 13 and grab 8 boards, but that might be too much to ask.
raven
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7/26/2004  10:59 AM
13 and 8 ? Man if he could give us that for 3 M a yr, we'd be blessed. How many teams in the league have a center that can give them that ? He would play in the post and that alone would help us tremendously.
bernard
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7/26/2004  11:09 AM
I'm with Nalod in rooting for Vinnie, and not just cause he's a Knick. He is a good guy who's gone through a lot.

But let's be realistic about what he can do, and, more importantly, what his signing means if it happens. No one will argue that his best ball is behind him. If he's healthier than he's been (physically and mentally), if he stays off the sauce, if he truly gets in good shape, then he'll give us a number of solid games over the length of his contract and be well worth the $3m per. But those are a lot of big if's and the upside is only over 2 or 3 years. Knicks won't likely be competing for a championship over that time.

Vinnie signing feels like treading water move. Hope to help us be a little more competitive now, but little chance of helping us when, if all the stars allign, we have a legit shot. That's my problem with the signing. I'd rather take risks that have a chance of panning out when we need them to, not before we're ready.
VDesai
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7/26/2004  11:11 AM
Indeed that would be awesome, but he's probably more likely to do what he did for us last year. I think 13 and 8 would be the best he could do, but its a very small chance. His rebounding was down for the Celtics early in the year. And his defense was never anything special.
GoNyGoNyGo
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7/26/2004  11:28 AM
Baker is well worth $3M per season. The guy was an all-star for many years and he did show some flashes of what he can do in the low post last year. As a backup PF/C, he could be really effective and a bargain at that price. He is depth at 2 spots. The problem is that the front line C is not good enough and he is a backup too (nazr). KT and Sweets can do fine at PF.

I don't ind having Baker. Gadz will never have the low post game Baker has. He is more of a Camby type player. I could understand a Gadzuric as an Energy guy off the bench, but I would NEVER count on him for serious minutes or a serious low post guy.

I would like to see NY get Damps in a reworked deal with Dallas or Toronto as a 3rd partner. if NY could get Damps and Walker or Carter for a combo of TT/Anderson/Harrington and whatever, that would be real nice. I can only imagine a Vinsanity and Starbury/H20 perimeter. Talk about matchup problems!!! Sweets and Damp get the ball and create many second opps, NY would be pretty darn good.
firefly
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7/26/2004  11:48 AM
I read somewhere that he would have taken the lle, except for the contract length (2 yrs max?). Then why are we giving him 3mm of the mle? Why not just 1mm for 3 years. The mans making a lot of money from the Celts anyway.

I think giving him a contract is a good thing. Supporting a guy whos only problems are in his mind will make him want to do the best he can for us. Dont forget, before his relapse, he was averaging better numbers then KT last year. But 3mm? seems like he didnt even expect that.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Vmart
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7/26/2004  12:00 PM
We have no choice but to root for Baker. He is a Knicks and that what counts. If he did have heart surgery lets hope he really is a 100% recovered from the surgery because I would hate to see a Hank Gathers or Reggie Lewis thing. But three Mill on him is a risk at best 1.5 would suffice because he still gets paid by the celtics. He is actually making more money now then he would have if he stayed a celtic.

Vdesai is correct that his crew denied having heart surgery or atleast his parents did. I also read it, it was in the Newsday a while ago.
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  12:44 PM
Posted by firefly:

I read somewhere that he would have taken the lle,
Sounds like reliable info
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  12:49 PM
Maybe Isiah feels that if we keep Baker, we have enough depth at the center position to include Dikembe in the Crawford trade
crzymdups
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7/26/2004  12:50 PM
I think this move may seriously backfire. If it gets us Crawford, it might be worth it (keeping Goodwin happy, etc.).

But Erick Dampier is still available. He's said that if Atlanta doesn't increase their offer and no one he wants can work out a sign and trade, he will take the MLE for two years. Indiana and Memphis and Dallas and Sacramento and Philly and Boston and most other teams that are going to use their MLE have already USED IT. The NYK HAVE NOT. They are the only team that Dampier has been rumored to who haven't used, so when he says he'll play for the MLE - he means he'll play HERE for the MLE.

If you can get Erick Dampier for the MLE, YOU DO IT. You don't screw yourself over to sign VIN BAKER. I don't care about his problems, I hope they've been worked out, but on his best day, he isn't the shot blocker and two way player Dampier has been throughout his career.

I'll say this again, getting Dampier is not about the offense, it's about the DEFENSE.

You simply CANNOT give up a chance to get Dampier, no matter what route it may be. You simply CANNOT lengthen what ae already long odds. If Damps has said he might take the MLE, you leave it open until he signs somewhere! This is madness!
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islesfan
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7/26/2004  1:13 PM
Re-signing Baker isn't going to preclude us from trading Dikembe. He's gone as soon as Isiah can decide who he wants to overpay. If they want to sign Baker to the LLE for a year that's fine but to sign him for a piece of the MLE and for multiple years is ridiculous. There's little to no interest in an addict on the downside of his career so there's no reason at all to overpay. And if there's even the slightest chance of him taking away minutes from Sweetney, then don't even bother.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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7/26/2004  1:35 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

I think this move may seriously backfire. If it gets us Crawford, it might be worth it (keeping Goodwin happy, etc.).

But Erick Dampier is still available. He's said that if Atlanta doesn't increase their offer and no one he wants can work out a sign and trade, he will take the MLE for two years. Indiana and Memphis and Dallas and Sacramento and Philly and Boston and most other teams that are going to use their MLE have already USED IT. The NYK HAVE NOT. They are the only team that Dampier has been rumored to who haven't used, so when he says he'll play for the MLE - he means he'll play HERE for the MLE.

If you can get Erick Dampier for the MLE, YOU DO IT. You don't screw yourself over to sign VIN BAKER. I don't care about his problems, I hope they've been worked out, but on his best day, he isn't the shot blocker and two way player Dampier has been throughout his career.

I'll say this again, getting Dampier is not about the offense, it's about the DEFENSE.

You simply CANNOT give up a chance to get Dampier, no matter what route it may be. You simply CANNOT lengthen what ae already long odds. If Damps has said he might take the MLE, you leave it open until he signs somewhere! This is madness!
I agree; if this move helps us get Jamal, then that's great. But otherwise I'd rather wait to see if we can get Dampier. BTW, it's only a NY POST rumor.
fishmike
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7/26/2004  1:35 PM
Baker had some nice moments last year but I dont know if I want him back. Its not a bad stop gap move until next year's deadline when we have real chips to work with, but he just doesnt do it for me. Its a bit silly to base discussion on what our local papers say, so I will hold my complaints until a deal is announced.

Something tells me Isiah has a player on the radar that HASNT been in the papers. Either way it doesnt matter... I think we are in a waiting game anyhow. There is no reason to think we cant win this division as is if we stay reasonably healthy.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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7/26/2004  1:40 PM
Vin goes near a drink his contract is toast. That must be written in.

IF he had a proceedure to correct a problem, then he is a new player.

If that is the case, he will be starting by Christmas at center if we don't make a move.

You are not getting damp on a MLE. By signing Vin, it enables us to trade either or all of Othella, Nazr,Kurt or Deke.

I doubt Isiah would goof to give 3/5ths of his MLE and then find out he could have had damp.

We have one roster spot open. He must make trades if he wants to add, he must reduce the contracts.

The Vin deal was likely promised a long time ago.

Whats up with Ales? Will he get to camp this year?
Knicksfan
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7/26/2004  2:06 PM
I think signing Vin is a good thing because we really need si8ze and post presence if any of the deals happen, and even if they don't we still need it. With the Knicks helping him on his personal situation I think he can be a very productive player for us. He didn't do much last season, but the truth is that we haven't seen all the things this team can do yet. With training camp, roles established and a better use of the talents on the team, the new players, including Vin, will be more productive. About the age, we aren't talking about a 50 year old player, and we aren't talking about a 6 year deal. He isn't that old for a 2-3 year deal for around 3 millions. I do agree that I would like to wait to see what happens with Dampier. Phoenix could get in the game and Atlanta still has its offer, but If somehow Dampier has to take a 2 year MLE deal to improve his value, I would like the Knicks to be there to offer him their MLE. There is still a chance so lets wait.

I wonder if Baker would accept the LLE because if he could it would really help us get into play for another player to help us. If we aren't in the run for another player with the MLE, giving him part of it isn't bad because we would still have part of the MLE and the LLE to bring a player like Gadz.
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Rich
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7/26/2004  3:04 PM
Posted by Nalod:

One more time. ++

THe guy had an UNDIAGNOSED HEART VALVE PROBLEM AND HAD A MAJOR SURGERY TO REPAIR IT. HE WILL RECOVER 100%! THIS CONDITION LEADS TO BOUTS OF FATIGUE. IF YOUR AN ALLSTAR PLAYER WITH THIS CONDITION AND THE WORLD IS COMING DOWN ON YOU FOR "LAZY" OUTPUT ON THE COURT, THAT ALCOHOLISM GENE SWITCH GETS TURNED ON AND ITS A BAD SPIRAL FOR HIM. VERY BAD. THIS GUY HAS BEEN THRU HELL, AND A HIGHLY PUBLIC CELTIC LAWSUIT TO KILL HIS CONTRACT. THIS IS A GOOD GUY, NOT SOME CRASS IDIOT. HE IS WORTH ROOTING FOR.

IF THE SURGERY IS THE CULPRIT TO HIS FATIGUE,AND HE HAS KICKED THE BOTTLE, THIS GUY CAN BE A MONSTER AGAIN.

AT 3 MILLION, THIS COULD BE A BARGAIN. MUCH LESS RISK THAN PAYING 68MILLION TO DAMP! DAMP HAS A REP FOR BEING LAZY AND ONLY MOTIVATED BY MONEY. OUTSIDE OF VIN'S BOOZE AND FATIGUE, HE IS AN ALLSTAR WITH SKILLS. DAMP HAS NEVER ACHIEVED THIS!

FOR ONCE, LETS ROOT FOR THIS BEATEN DOWN FORMER ALLSTAR TO COME HOME, PLAY FOR THE ONLY TEAM HE CARES ABOUT, AND SPUR HIM ON TO THE COMEBACK PLAYER OF THE YEAR INSTEAD OF WHINING ABOUT DEJAUN WAGNER AND DREW "THE PARTY ANIMAL WHO UNDERACIEVES" GOODEN.

Post it ten times. I still diagree. Get over yourself.
crzymdups
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7/26/2004  3:04 PM
Speaking of Isiah going after someone not on the radar (and I love how he's stopped talking to the NY media, seriously), do you think he's going for Shareef? He has Tim Thomas to offer, their salaries are comparable, Tim angered Zeke in the playoffs with Fugazi non-sense, Tim's deal is much shorter in years than Reefs and Portland has low-balled Darius Miles meaning they need a starting small forward. The conventional thinking has been that when the Nets deal fell through, Portland would be starting Reef and Zach side by side, but maybe there's something else going on here...

I don't think the move would answer any needs, as I think the Knicks truly need some shot blocking and Houston insurance and additional play making skills and little else. But it seems like a possibility. Also, Zeke has coveted Ruben Patterson for a while now, so the deal could be expanded, who knows?
Posted by fishmike:

Baker had some nice moments last year but I dont know if I want him back. Its not a bad stop gap move until next year's deadline when we have real chips to work with, but he just doesnt do it for me. Its a bit silly to base discussion on what our local papers say, so I will hold my complaints until a deal is announced.

Something tells me Isiah has a player on the radar that HASNT been in the papers. Either way it doesnt matter... I think we are in a waiting game anyhow. There is no reason to think we cant win this division as is if we stay reasonably healthy.
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