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Knicks should acquire Dajuan Wagner
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Bonn1997
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7/25/2004  3:11 PM
If we give up Nazy to get those two players and don't make other trades to improve at center, we'll get abused so badly at center that we'll probaly go like 30-52

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/25/2004 15:12:34]
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TMS
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7/25/2004  3:45 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

If we give up Nazy to get those two players and don't make other trades to improve at center, we'll get abused so badly at center that we'll probaly go like 30-52

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/25/2004 15:12:34]

at least we still have our 1st round pick next year.
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tkf
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7/25/2004  3:53 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

rip was the main reason why ct won the ncaas in 1999 and almost to the final four in 1998. rip is probably the games best mid range shooter[shoots 45% with most of his shots coming from the outside] and at 6-7 with long arms and high character fits in perfect with a team who plays defense first. there is no comparison between crawford and hamilton-if you traded hamilton for crawford, detroit likely wouldve lost to the Bucks in the 1st round.

that is absolute BS, if crawford was on the pistons the pistons would still win, crawford is a scoring maching and could give that team what billups and Rip gave them combined, he could play pG or SG and can score in a hurry.... I mean all of a sudden RIP Is this great SG when none of you were singing his praises in washington and still losing.... come on man, stop jumping on the bandwagon...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
simrud
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7/25/2004  7:43 PM
All I'm sayin is that Diop is a bust already, he has been the league for 3 years on an awful team and has not been able to even get backup mintues.

Wagner I'm not to high on, Craw is def much better if only because Wagner is 6 0 and Craw 6 5. Craw can also play PG and Wagner can't. The only 6 0 SG I can think of is AI, and I think we all agree that Wagner is no Iverson.

So that's why I don't think Wanger is worth our best center or KT who is just a good player. (Mohammed I have a hard time calling a good player with all his deffeciences, but he is our best center still, exatcly why I want Dampier so much).
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TMS
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7/26/2004  8:38 AM
i agree, Diop HAS been a bust so far...but what are you really giving up in that trade? Nazr Mohammed? do you think Vin Baker as a starting C would do THAT much worse? is Nazr the key piece to making the playoffs next year? not in my mind...

i think Wagner can still grow into a very good player in this league w/the right coaching & development...& there's no other situation that i think he could succeed in better than in NY, under the tutorlage of Isiah Thomas, Lenny Wilkens, Stephon Marbury & Allan Houston (a close family friend of his).

if the Knicks are going to get Jamal Crawford, then obviously there's no need to think about getting Wagner, but if they still need a backup SG, instead of going after guys like Aaron McKie, i think i would much rather take a flyer on a young guy like Wagner & have a higher potential gain in the long run.
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firefly
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7/26/2004  11:39 AM
I agree with simrud. It dosnt work position-wise. I mean, we give up our starting C, for a guy whos done nothing in this league to show hes worthy of a contract at ALL, and a tiny SG who seems to be more fragile than Houston. I dont think Nazr is good enough to start either, but until we get a better option, were stuck with him. And trading him hoping Vin will be healthy and sober all year is VERY dangerous!!

Besides, theres no point getting picks if were not at least gonna support them, and help them improve. FWill has a lot of upside too. Hes done nothing so far for us to discard him for another "potential" player
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
trevor
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7/26/2004  11:48 AM
Posted by KNICKSdom:

I am not opposed to bring Wagner over to NY. He can make a nice three guard rotation of Marbury, Houston. That's a mix of speed, athleticism and perimeter offense. Plus the rotation mades for good guard press on D. I like Frank too but Wagner has more potential to put up better numbers than Frank could.
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djsunyc
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7/26/2004  1:45 PM
now somebody tell me again, what's the difference between dujuan wagner and shawn respert or mark macon?
TMS
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7/26/2004  3:06 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

now somebody tell me again, what's the difference between dujuan wagner and shawn respert or mark macon?
why don't you post a comparison of their stats in their 1st 2 years & let's make a comparison...i have no idea on those guys personally.
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crzymdups
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7/26/2004  3:26 PM
Dajuan Wagner is a disaster.

Diop is a flop.

The Knicks DO NOT need to make a move just to make a move. I think this trade would be sheer idiocy.

The only reason to get rid of Frank, or to supplant him as third guard in the lineup is if you can IMPROVE. Wagner is a step back. Crawford is a step forward, so you do it.

The only reason you get rid of Nazr, who is a servicable starting center in this league is if you can get a better center (last year he outplayed Bosh, Dalembert and Blount - not great players, but that's the point: they were opposing starting centers). Dampier is an improvement, so you do it. Diop is a huge gamble. HUGE. Don't do this trade, Isiah, where ever you are!
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djsunyc
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7/26/2004  3:46 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:

now somebody tell me again, what's the difference between dujuan wagner and shawn respert or mark macon?
why don't you post a comparison of their stats in their 1st 2 years & let's make a comparison...i have no idea on those guys personally.

those guys are from the early 90's. two undersized combo guards that were great scorers in college (respert w/ michigan state and macon w/ temple) but amounted to pretty much nothing in the nba. so far dujuan wagner fits that mold. kurt is more valuable than diop and wagner but it's not a bad secondary deal IF we made the dampier deal first.
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  3:50 PM
This trade is not a good one, but not a complete disaster for the Knicks either. I mean, TMS definitely has a point that Nazy is crap and losing him isnt exactly going to put us on the street scrounging for quarters. At the same time, Wagner and Diop are also crap presently, we can only hope that crap turns to gold. But, I wouldn't bet on that one. Actually, I like Diop better than Wagner. Wagner is a permanent defensive liability and, while compared to Iverson, he can't really do anything as well as him - quickness, athleticism, shooting, durability. In my opinion, Wagner has talent but he's gonna struggle to find a consistent role on a team because of his deficiencies. Diop is atleast a big man (and I mean Ruben Studdard would be envious) and has potential to a defensive stalwart down the line.

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TMS
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7/26/2004  4:25 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:

now somebody tell me again, what's the difference between dujuan wagner and shawn respert or mark macon?
why don't you post a comparison of their stats in their 1st 2 years & let's make a comparison...i have no idea on those guys personally.

those guys are from the early 90's. two undersized combo guards that were great scorers in college (respert w/ michigan state and macon w/ temple) but amounted to pretty much nothing in the nba. so far dujuan wagner fits that mold. kurt is more valuable than diop and wagner but it's not a bad secondary deal IF we made the dampier deal first.

did either of them even have a respectable rookie year or show any signs of having some potential early on? i think Wagner had a solid rookie year except for the injuries.

i remember Respert's name from the draft a while back, but i don't remember hearing anything about him at all after that.

[Edited by - TMS on 07/26/2004 16:25:54]
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simrud
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7/26/2004  5:37 PM
I'v seen Diop play and I just don't understand what some people see in him. He plays like a total stiff. He has no touch, is slow of the ground, can harldy dunk, displays no timing for blockshots, has no footwork, does not run the floor, I mean I could just keep going on listing bball qualites of bigmen and he wount have any of them either. All he got is his size and height. He had 3 years to show SOMETHING and he has not done so. I mean if he at least showed an ability to do something during those 3 full NBA seasons I could see how someone might like him. But he literally has not done anything.

As for Wagner, he reminds of Eddie House, a guy who was on the Heat his rookie year. He was a huge scorer in college. putting 40pts every other game. He had some good scoring games for the Heat who were really bad that year. Just like Wanger had some good scoring games for the Cavs who were also really bad that year. House is actually bigger then Wagner. I beleave he is still in the league, but he hardly gets of the bench, still lookin for a consistent roel with any team.

The thing is, unless Wagner proves years of NBA experiene wrong, like Iverson did, he just can't be an NBA 2 guard by definition, and he refuses to learn to play the point. His atitude is prolly a bigger problem then his size.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
codeunknown
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7/26/2004  5:53 PM
Posted by simrud:

I'v seen Diop play and I just don't understand what some people see in him. He plays like a total stiff. He has no touch, is slow of the ground, can harldy dunk, displays no timing for blockshots, has no footwork, does not run the floor, I mean I could just keep going on listing bball qualites of bigmen and he wount have any of them either. All he got is his size and height. He had 3 years to show SOMETHING and he has not done so. I mean if he at least showed an ability to do something during those 3 full NBA seasons I could see how someone might like him. But he literally has not done anything.

Lol. Thats funny. I think you're wrong about the dunking though. The picture of him on NBA.com shows him throwing it down, not quite in style, but slamming one down nonetheless. Naturally, he has no footwork and all those other abilities, thats because he can't play offense! I think his timing on blocked shots isn't all that bad though. As has been repeated, right now his play is about as good as Will Hung's singing and Shaq's rapping. But, he's a big ol' dynamo and that counts for something.
Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
VDesai
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7/26/2004  7:03 PM
The one difference between Wagner and Respert and House is the guy has the ability to drive to the hole while the other two guys were/are pure shooters. The caveat, of course is Wagner doesn't have the consistent J those two guys had/have. It's easy to fall in love with these undersized two's who got it done on the amateur level. I loved Respert's shooting and I was a big fan Iverson and Wagner. But Wagner simply isn't in Iverson's league and he certainly hasn't shown me the same kind of toughness and clutchness (though he still has time to).

I don't know if I agree that Wagner had a good rookie year. He shot under 37% and in the low 30's on the 3's. He scored a decent amount but that was really a poor, poor team. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he's been hurt though. He could still find a role in this league....I'm just not sure it will be as a star or a starter. He has the makings of a 6th man type if he can get the scoring going...

Diop on the other hand I wouldnt touch. He can block shots a little, but as I said before, he has some years to go before he even resembles Jerome James. You can't teach size, and you can teach the game, but you have to some skill to start with...

[Edited by - VDesai on 07/26/2004 19:04:59]
TMS
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7/26/2004  7:48 PM
that's fair enough...i just don't place much value on Nazr, & a restricted 1st rounder is a price i'd be willing to pay for the potential gain if both these kids worked out well under some good coaching & development.

to each their own.
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