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A little levity-porzingus not a top 5 draft pick
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dacash
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2/9/2016  6:00 PM
with all the heavy duty phil stuff stuff going round i found this on sheridan hoops
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/06/18/mitnick-kristaps-porzingis-is-not-a-top-five-pick/
made me giggle in hindsight
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nixluva
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2/9/2016  6:10 PM
Yeah I remember reading this one.

Mitnick: Kristaps Porzingis Is Not a Top-Five Pick

June 18, 2015 by AJ Mitnick


image: http://i2.wp.com/www.sheridanhoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Mitnick.jpeg?resize=100%2C100

Mitnick

porzingisLatvian big man Kristaps Porzingis is flat-out not worth a top-five pick in the 2015 NBA draft. He’s not even the best European prospect this year; that would be Mario Hezonja.

With the draft just 10 days away, Porzingis’ stock has taken a dramatic rise that has put him in the conversation to be among the first three players selected, with some even debating if it may be worth it to take him first overall ahead of Karl-Anthony Towns.

While Porzingis is a lottery lock with great potential, after seeing him a great deal these past two years, I can tell you he is being overvalued right now.

This season for Spanish club Baloncesto Sevilla, Porzingis made big strides in his game – improving his skills, his body and his confidence – on his way to being named the European rising star of this year’s Eurocup. While Sevilla had a rough season in the Spanish ACB League, it played well enough in the Eurocup to qualify for the round of 32 (the competition’s second stage), where Porzingis got extremely valuable experience for someone still shy of his 20th birthday.

For a 7-1 player, Porzingis possesses incredible mobility with great legs. Not only is he an excellent catch-and-shoot player, he can set a screen for a high pick-and-roll and end up finishing with a sweet alley-oop dunk. Porzingis gets out very quickly in transition, where he is a quality finisher, and does a great job coming from outside for offensive rebounds. There is no question that Porzingis should be a lottery prospect in this draft, but the hype surrounding him over the past few days since his ballyhooed Las Vegas workout is way over the top.

ASM, the agency spearheaded by Andy Miller, made a brilliant move running its own workout and inviting every NBA team, rather than having Porzingis work out individually for teams. With full control over the environment, ASM put Porzingis in the perfect situation to showcase his strengths, and he hit the ball out of the park, leaving both NBA staffers and media drooling over his potential. Unfortunately for the Pistons, Bucks and Nuggets – who used lottery picks on Darko Milicic, Yi Jianlian and Nikoloz Tskitishvili, respectively, mostly on the merit of how they looked in workouts – a predraft workout is almost irrelevant when looking at the potential of a player.


The reality is that Porzingis was a 20-minute per game player for a Spanish team that failed to make the playoffs and did not have an American at his position. American coach Scott Roth, a former NBA player who had multiple stints as an NBA assistant, was fired in January and essentially paid the price for giving Porzingis a bigger role instead of building a team that could reach the postseason.

Last season, Dario Saric played on a Cibona team that was struggling financially and didn’t have the strongest roster. But Saric was able to put the team on his back and singlehandedly lead it to great heights. If you have the type of length and mobility of Porzingis, what excuse do you have for grabbing three rebounds or fewer in 19 of 50 games this season, especially when you are second on your team in minutes?

ESPN draft expert Chad Ford said that if Porzingis were in college this past season, “I have no doubt – and a number of scouts have said this – we’d be talking about him as a potential No. 1.”

PorzingisTo be honest, I would say absolutely the opposite. If Porzingis played in college and had lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, maybe he would be going back to school because he didn’t think he would be a lottery pick. I don’t buy the idea that he would have been as dominant as Towns, Jahlil Okafor and Frank Kaminsky were in college this season. I would even go one step further and say that if Hezonja played for Sevilla instead of Porzingis, Sevilla would have made the playoffs and Hezonja would’ve been on the All-ACB First Team.

A lot of American journalists like to label European players as unknown because they don’t watch international basketball. The average reader doesn’t, either. But in 2015, every NBA team has access to every European league game, and with Google Translate, you can follow everything going on with every top prospect in every country. NBA teams have had every chance to see Porzingis many times, and anyone tasked with making a draft decision has been watching Porzingis for a while.

So how could a workout just two weeks before the draft greatly impact the stock of a player that teams have had many opportunities to see over the past years?

The answer is the herd mentality. If you put enough basketball personnel in one room to see a player in an ideal, controlled environment and he impresses, teams not only are more interested because of his potential, but also because they saw that other teams were impressed. For what it’s worth, the biggest winner of the workout was ASM, because their pre-draft strategy for Porzingis was brilliant. I’m sure other players and agents will take notice.

Porzingis certainly is no draft bust like Milicic or Tskitishvili, but he doesn’t seem to be Dirk Nowitzki, either. Whichever team drafts him likely will be very happy, but at this point it doesn’t look like a good idea to pick Porzingis ahead of Towns, Okafor, D’Angelo Russell, Emmanuel Mudiay, Justise Winslow, Willie Cauley-Stein or even Hezonja.


Read more at http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/06/18/mitnick-kristaps-porzingis-is-not-a-top-five-pick/#reOOW5UrTKwDx5em.99

NardDogNation
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2/9/2016  6:46 PM
To be fair, Porzingis' game and physique seemed to improve dramatically from before the draft. I had grave doubts about him before he permanently shut me up and made me a believer.
nyknickzingis
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2/9/2016  8:09 PM
The thing about KP, few saw that he was that hard a worker in the offseason. He improved his strength from the time he was drafted. He improved his understanding of the NBA game fast. He came in and quickly understood where to be in the offense. To Phil and Fisher's credit, they put 4 vets around him who wouldn't leave him out to dry too much. It was a good situation they put him in and he also was a very very quick learner.

Perhaps the biggest thing no one saw coming was his ability to stay with a high motor at the NBA level for 30 minutes a night right away. Few lottery picks have that, let alone guys who are expected to come in as a project.

Still a long road ahead for KP to reach his ceiling. Got to go to work in the offseason on upperbody strength and also the post game.

Jmpasq
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2/10/2016  8:38 AM
NardDogNation wrote:To be fair, Porzingis' game and physique seemed to improve dramatically from before the draft. I had grave doubts about him before he permanently shut me up and made me a believer.

Yep, he really improved dramatically from his Euro league games to now. I was scared after I started watching his Euro games and even the summer league. I dont know what happened all of a sudden but he got much better

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Chandler
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2/10/2016  8:43 AM
This is up there with Kiper's praise of Jarmacus Russel

Thanks for the posr

(5)(7)
fishmike
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2/10/2016  10:17 AM
NardDogNation wrote:To be fair, Porzingis' game and physique seemed to improve dramatically from before the draft. I had grave doubts about him before he permanently shut me up and made me a believer.
actually not true at all. He played professionally against men and his numbers were very good, especially per 36/minutes.

Also I looked at his old instagram pics and last year playing in Spain he was cut and strong. Lots of pics of him lifting with Willy so I have to refute your points about his improvement. Guys that were wrong just didnt research him very well. There was not a ton of data and the trend was that these players dont pan out. Most people just went with that figured he was another bust in the making without actually learning about the player.

If you look back at his #s, his story, how he trained, his family, his work ethic and his love for basketball you would have known the only thing that was going to keep this kid from being a good NBA player was health. Few people had that information or worked very hard to research it. Much easier to just say he's another euro-bust.

If there was a big improvment it was between summer league and the regular season.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knixkik
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2/10/2016  10:48 AM
Shows how clueless some "experts" really are.
Bonn1997
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2/10/2016  10:58 AM
I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).
Allanfan20
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2/10/2016  11:11 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).

Yup. Nobody had a clue. Obviously since he was a top 5 pic, we all felt a lot more confident but you just don't know. Work ethic, training methods, skills. Those things matched a lot of foreign players and they still don't make it. Others do.

KP still has a ton of work to do but right now, the biggest concern is keeping him healthy. I missed the game but it looks like he played decently last night. He also seems to hit another wall. Don't overload the kid and if he's hurt, don't make him tough it out if he doesn't need to. "Toughing it out" is super overrated.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
WaltLongmire
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2/10/2016  1:31 PM

Interesting response by him to someone who Tweeted him in response:

Carlos Orrego ‏@CarlosHDTV 16h16 hours ago
@BobbyMarks42 Over reaction to a good game. He's a good player. Has a way to go to be called Franchise Level Talent.
0 retweets 0 likes


Bobby Marks ‏@BobbyMarks42 16h16 hours ago
@CarlosHDTV BS. Have watched him in person all season.
0 retweets 3 likes

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fishmike
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2/10/2016  1:34 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).

Yup. Nobody had a clue. Obviously since he was a top 5 pic, we all felt a lot more confident but you just don't know. Work ethic, training methods, skills. Those things matched a lot of foreign players and they still don't make it. Others do.

KP still has a ton of work to do but right now, the biggest concern is keeping him healthy. I missed the game but it looks like he played decently last night. He also seems to hit another wall. Don't overload the kid and if he's hurt, don't make him tough it out if he doesn't need to. "Toughing it out" is super overrated.

some had a clue... I cant fault anyone *here* for being wrong. We dont have the inside scoop, dont talk to scouts and have limited tools to research. Except for Briggs who needs only see 3 minutes of game footage to determine a player's entire career the rest of us are making semi-educated guesses at best. Thats us.

Donkeys like Sheridan and SAS are paid to have better information. That is their job. As wrong as Chad Ford has been over the years at least ESPN flew him out to see guys. Do these guys even do their due diligence before trashing guys? Pretty sure no...

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
WaltLongmire
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2/10/2016  1:53 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).

Yup. Nobody had a clue. Obviously since he was a top 5 pic, we all felt a lot more confident but you just don't know. Work ethic, training methods, skills. Those things matched a lot of foreign players and they still don't make it. Others do.

KP still has a ton of work to do but right now, the biggest concern is keeping him healthy. I missed the game but it looks like he played decently last night. He also seems to hit another wall. Don't overload the kid and if he's hurt, don't make him tough it out if he doesn't need to. "Toughing it out" is super overrated.


I think the real issue is somebody dismissing/rejecting someone out of hand with some criticisms they got from another source.

There were good discussions about KP, with strong feelings on both sides, but it was annoying to me when some people spoke with absolute certainty that this or that was going to be the case, with no exceptions.

When you continue to hear the Fredric Weiss stuff or see him compared to every white Euro-bust, you have to question where certain people are coming from...and then you find out that they have never really watched the guy play.

Took a philosophy of law class as an undergrad, and the Prof had us take a case and do short papers supporting each of the 2 competing sides. Might be a good thing for some to do- force yourself to take the side you don't agree with and argue for it. Could be a learning experience.

This is true for evaluating any player, by the way.

There was a lot of stuff out there to use in evaluating KP...many simply did not want to look at it, or chose to emphasize his weaknesses.

I think I did this with Booker, who seems to be a much more complex player than we got to see at Kentucky- and a better player all-around player than I thought he was. I also did it with Stanley Johnson, who seemed very overrated to me based on what he showed in college, but looks like a very good player at this point.

Live and learn, I guess.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
WaltLongmire
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2/10/2016  1:55 PM
fishmike wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).

Yup. Nobody had a clue. Obviously since he was a top 5 pic, we all felt a lot more confident but you just don't know. Work ethic, training methods, skills. Those things matched a lot of foreign players and they still don't make it. Others do.

KP still has a ton of work to do but right now, the biggest concern is keeping him healthy. I missed the game but it looks like he played decently last night. He also seems to hit another wall. Don't overload the kid and if he's hurt, don't make him tough it out if he doesn't need to. "Toughing it out" is super overrated.

some had a clue... I cant fault anyone *here* for being wrong. We dont have the inside scoop, dont talk to scouts and have limited tools to research. Except for Briggs who needs only see 3 minutes of game footage to determine a player's entire career the rest of us are making semi-educated guesses at best. Thats us.

Donkeys like Sheridan and SAS are paid to have better information. That is their job. As wrong as Chad Ford has been over the years at least ESPN flew him out to see guys. Do these guys even do their due diligence before trashing guys? Pretty sure no...

Cruel...very cruel.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
Knixkik
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2/10/2016  2:03 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:

Interesting response by him to someone who Tweeted him in response:

Carlos Orrego ‏@CarlosHDTV 16h16 hours ago
@BobbyMarks42 Over reaction to a good game. He's a good player. Has a way to go to be called Franchise Level Talent.
0 retweets 0 likes


Bobby Marks ‏@BobbyMarks42 16h16 hours ago
@CarlosHDTV BS. Have watched him in person all season.
0 retweets 3 likes


I can't believe there are people still saying "overreaction to a good game." No one is calling him a sure-fire superstar yet, but i think it is pretty universally accepted that he is just scratching the surface of other-worldly potential and has franchise player talent. I don't think there is any disagreement with that, other than maybe 1% of the population which includes this guy that responded.
fishmike
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2/10/2016  2:17 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not going to laugh at someone for a bad prediction about how an international player would do in the NBA. It's hard enough to project how NCAA players will do. It's exponentially harder to try to project international players' performances to the NBA. Even when you do get the projection right, you might be a genius or you might just be lucky (or some combination).

Yup. Nobody had a clue. Obviously since he was a top 5 pic, we all felt a lot more confident but you just don't know. Work ethic, training methods, skills. Those things matched a lot of foreign players and they still don't make it. Others do.

KP still has a ton of work to do but right now, the biggest concern is keeping him healthy. I missed the game but it looks like he played decently last night. He also seems to hit another wall. Don't overload the kid and if he's hurt, don't make him tough it out if he doesn't need to. "Toughing it out" is super overrated.

some had a clue... I cant fault anyone *here* for being wrong. We dont have the inside scoop, dont talk to scouts and have limited tools to research. Except for Briggs who needs only see 3 minutes of game footage to determine a player's entire career the rest of us are making semi-educated guesses at best. Thats us.

Donkeys like Sheridan and SAS are paid to have better information. That is their job. As wrong as Chad Ford has been over the years at least ESPN flew him out to see guys. Do these guys even do their due diligence before trashing guys? Pretty sure no...

Cruel...very cruel.

it was a compliment!
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
meloanyk
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2/10/2016  2:50 PM
I actually find the euphoria a month ago after comeback win agaisnt Celtic to be more humorous . Think we hit .500 and hysterics began w. Even ESPN move us up in rankings. Think we saw .500 once more before collapsing. Team is more entertaining and less toxic than last years raw sewerage but needs an injection of additional talent . Conley fits a need but Batum wouldnt be a bad consolation
WaltLongmire
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2/10/2016  2:55 PM
Knixkik wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:

Interesting response by him to someone who Tweeted him in response:

Carlos Orrego ‏@CarlosHDTV 16h16 hours ago
@BobbyMarks42 Over reaction to a good game. He's a good player. Has a way to go to be called Franchise Level Talent.
0 retweets 0 likes


Bobby Marks ‏@BobbyMarks42 16h16 hours ago
@CarlosHDTV BS. Have watched him in person all season.
0 retweets 3 likes


I can't believe there are people still saying "overreaction to a good game." No one is calling him a sure-fire superstar yet, but i think it is pretty universally accepted that he is just scratching the surface of other-worldly potential and has franchise player talent. I don't think there is any disagreement with that, other than maybe 1% of the population which includes this guy that responded.

There is almost an assumption that last night was the only decent game he's had this year by the CarlosHDTV fellow.

Reminds me of the Vegas audition Porzingis did, and some saying it was the reason franchises were now seeing him as a top 5 pick (yeah, I'm talking about you, holfresh, wherever you are.), as if he had not been scouted extensively for at least 2 years.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
WaltLongmire
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2/10/2016  2:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/10/2016  2:57 PM
meloanyk wrote:I actually find the euphoria a month ago after comeback win agaisnt Celtic to be more humorous . Think we hit .500 and hysterics began w. Even ESPN move us up in rankings. Think we saw .500 once more before collapsing. Team is more entertaining and less toxic than last years raw sewerage but needs an injection of additional talent . Conley fits a need but Batum wouldnt be a bad consolation

Funny thing is that we began to fall after the game, and the Celtics regrouped and went on a run.
EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
matt
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2/10/2016  3:16 PM
Sheridan and his site have lost a lot of credibility in my opinion the last few years. He was right about Lebron going back to Cleveland, but other than that, most bold predictions they make end up being wrong.
A little levity-porzingus not a top 5 draft pick

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