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Woj takes down Phil
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anrst
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2/9/2016  11:51 AM
good take by Woj.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/if-phil-jackson-doesn-t-want-to-coach-the-knicks--he-ought-to-let-someone-else-061839486.html


NEW YORK – As a young NBA coach, the fastest path to losing a locker room comes this way: Behave like a player. To fly to California and visit a girlfriend in the middle of the New York Knicks' training camp – engaging Matt Barnes in a Tom-and-Jerry tussle-and-chase – cost Derek Fisher dearly. Fisher lost the moral high ground inside Madison Square Garden, lost a measure of gravitas as a leader of men.

The embarrassment of his unfilmed "Real Housewives" episode didn't cost Fisher his job as Knicks coach, but it did start him on a slippery slope toward his firing on Monday. That October weekend odyssey was Fisher's choice, and the blame for it all – including the failure to return to New York in time to conduct a Knicks practice – belongs to him.

Still, sometimes culture influences behavior inside organizations. Think Fisher never saw Phil Jackson bolting town to see Jeanie Buss? As one member of the Knicks organization wondered, "Where would [Fisher] get the idea that it was OK to fly to California on an off day to see your girlfriend?"

For better and worse, yes, Jackson's lifestyle and sensibilities set the tone with the Knicks. Fisher lost players with his discombobulated rotations and revolving roles. Inside the locker room, the Knicks had come to struggle with understanding how they fit into this team, league sources said. Above Fisher, Jackson worried about how that impacted the development of the roster. What's more, there were times Jackson felt Fisher had strayed too far from the triangle offense, still a sacred part of the Knicks president's program.

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Phil Jackson hired Derek Fisher after Steve Kerr first rejected an offer from the Knicks. (NBAE/Getty Images)

Phil Jackson hired Derek Fisher after Steve Kerr first rejected an offer from the Knicks. (NBAE/Getty Images)
For Fisher, there was no advantage to longtime Jackson disciples Kurt Rambis and Jim Cleamons getting jammed onto his coaching staff 18 months ago. The Knicks have the resources to hire elite coaches, and Jackson pursues the familiar, the comfortable. His coaching tree is too small, too unaccomplished to cling so tightly to it. Rambis and Brian Shaw have no business as candidates to coach the Knicks – but there's a world of Jackson sycophants that delivers the idea credibility.

Everyone can forget about Tom Thibodeau's candidacy, because Jackson would never cede control – never mind to someone who sees basketball so diametrically different than him. Anyway, Jackson has never hid his disdain for the Jeff Van Gundy coaching tree; in truth, most everyone else's coaching trees.

In a lot of ways, Jackson exists in a parallel universe to the NBA. He hires coaches out of his world, personnel scouts out of his world. The idea of Rambis, Shaw or Cleamons as long-term Fisher replacements is embarrassing. Jackson isn't using the Knicks' vast resources to lure the best player personnel staffs and coaches to the Knicks, just likeminded people, just his guys. Nevertheless, he probably never promised owner James Dolan a different vision. Every executive has the right to execute his vision, but this is far too narrow, too exclusive.

There are two kinds of employees with the Knicks: Jackson's guys and Dolan's guys. Jackson tried to move out some of Dolan's people, but never got his way. Within both groups, there are some real, smart, talented people. Jackson has made solid personnel decisions in free agency, and wisely kept the No. 4 pick in the 2015 draft to select Kristaps Porzingis. Still, the coach, the system, will be important in free-agent recruiting, because most believe Jackson is a short-timer on the job.

The Knicks have a real chance to sell Oklahoma City's Russell Westbrook in 2017 – New York and Porzingis have his attention, yes – and Jackson ought to start constructing an elite coaching staff to begin that process with Westbrook and with free agents beyond him.

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Warriors assistant Luke Walton will be an attractive head-coaching candidate this summer. (Getty Images)

Warriors assistant Luke Walton will be an attractive head-coaching candidate this summer. (Getty Images)
Golden State assistant Luke Walton is closest to a legitimately coveted candidate with ties to Jackson and the triangle – and he's still largely unproven, too. Walton intrigues Jackson, but truth be told: Why would Walton come East without an assurance Jackson is committed to the long run in New York? There's still a strong belief Jackson will eventually find his way to his fiancée Jeanie Buss and the Los Angeles Lakers. Walton will be competing with Thibodeau for the Lakers job in the spring, and who knows: Jackson and Walton could be reunited there.

Walton is a West Coast guy, the way his boss, Steve Kerr, is too. Kerr turned down Jackson and New York, because he had far more attractive choices. Porzingis makes the Knicks job intriguing in the long run, but make no mistake: One way or another, Jackson will be gone before the next Knicks coach has cycled through New York. To think the next Knicks president/GM – Steve Mills or Isiah Thomas – will stay true to the triangle is absurd, and so hiring one more triangle coach is almost guaranteeing him Fisher's fate.

Nine losses in 10 games – including five straight – was the end of the line for Derek Fisher on Monday. He lost credibility in the preseason and lost his grip on these Knicks in the past month. Fisher tried to push past that triangle offense, and Phil Jackson resisted those wishes. Jackson doesn't want to come downstairs and do the job himself, but yet he still demands it done his way, on his terms. His coaching tree is full of failures trying to be him, trying to run his vision. Another is on the way to New York, and history has shown: There's only one Phil Jackson, and unless he wants to coach the Knicks himself, he ought to let someone else do it his way.

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BigDaddyG
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2/9/2016  12:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/9/2016  12:03 PM
I disagree with Woj about Shaw and Cleamons, to a lesser extint. Everyone new Shaw was questionable fit in Denver. Shaw got desperate after being passed over so many times and Denver's front office doesn't appear to have a clue. I believe that Denver requested Shaw not to run the triangle. Cleamons has always been well respected around the league. His age seems to be the biggest reason people are down on him. He's kinda of right about Walton, but you have to start somewhere. The kids has paid his dues.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
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2/9/2016  12:24 PM
generally when Phil get criticized it starts with his inability to embrace other view points. Its Phil's philosophy on hoops and the buck stops there. However this is the first stop where Phil has not been wildly successful. Not to mention every place he leaves takes big steps backward.

I have no problem with anything Woj said in this article. All fair points in this world of transparency. However my biggest dose of Phil support comes from options. Has Phil saved us from Dolan? Thats hard to say, but no way does a Dolan-minion run team draft KP at 4 after the other big 3 are off the board. I just cant envision that. That and based on other moves I want to see how this turns out.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/9/2016  12:25 PM
^^^ to sum up with the cap exploding this is a critical time for team building. Much rather see Phil navigate this than Isiah or another Dolan-minion
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
helloharv
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2/9/2016  12:29 PM
wow --- tough article
crzymdups
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2/9/2016  1:18 PM
As a young NBA coach, the fastest path to losing a locker room comes this way: Behave like a player. To fly to California and visit a girlfriend in the middle of the New York Knicks' training camp – engaging Matt Barnes in a Tom-and-Jerry tussle-and-chase – cost Derek Fisher dearly. Fisher lost the moral high ground inside Madison Square Garden, lost a measure of gravitas as a leader of men.

The embarrassment of his unfilmed "Real Housewives" episode didn't cost Fisher his job as Knicks coach, but it did start him on a slippery slope toward his firing on Monday. That October weekend odyssey was Fisher's choice, and the blame for it all – including the failure to return to New York in time to conduct a Knicks practice – belongs to him.


I remain somewhat convinced that the timing of Fish's firing had something to do with the timing of having just played Memphis twice in the past three weeks. Maybe one of the players made a comment or something and Phil knew Fish had lost them.

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crzymdups
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2/9/2016  1:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/9/2016  1:20 PM
Still, sometimes culture influences behavior inside organizations. Think Fisher never saw Phil Jackson bolting town to see Jeanie Buss? As one member of the Knicks organization wondered, "Where would [Fisher] get the idea that it was OK to fly to California on an off day to see your girlfriend?"

Also this strikes me as a bad sign. And maybe that Phil isn't working. Someone INSIDE the Knicks is cracking about Phil going to CA to visit his lady all the time. Essentially someone on the Knicks is calling Phil a hypocrit. (and they're not wrong.) There is dischord in MSG. As always.

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NYKBocker
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2/9/2016  1:38 PM
crzymdups wrote:
Still, sometimes culture influences behavior inside organizations. Think Fisher never saw Phil Jackson bolting town to see Jeanie Buss? As one member of the Knicks organization wondered, "Where would [Fisher] get the idea that it was OK to fly to California on an off day to see your girlfriend?"
Also this strikes me as a bad sign. And maybe that Phil isn't working. Someone INSIDE the Knicks is cracking about Phil going to CA to visit his lady all the time. Essentially someone on the Knicks is calling Phil a hypocrit. (and they're not wrong.) There is dischord in MSG. As always.
Being a head coach and the team president is different. You can't miss a practice when you are the head coach.
nixluva
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2/9/2016  1:57 PM
Man all of this feeding frenzy from the Media is just a bit over the top. Sure they make some good points but they were going off before the draft and free agency and then they ALL HAD TO EAT CROW after he made his moves. If Fish had worked just a little bit better and Melo doesn't trip offer the damn ref things could really look a lot different. In the end Fish wasn't the right man for this job, so be it. They can move on now and get the right man and the team STILL has a lot of good things going for it. Especially if they can get back on track and win most of these very winnable games left on the schedule.

I really don't care about the side issues. What I see is an improved organization from the D League thru to the roster. Phil had Rambis in place JUST IN CASE. So he broke the glass and pulled the Rambis card and well see how this works. If it's not good you still have a shot at Thibs or Walton this summer. We still have some hope Phil can add someone at the Trade Deadline. Phil still has some cap to work with this summer. This is so much better than where we were when Phil came on board. Lets hope the team can get it going.

fishmike
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2/9/2016  2:06 PM
Nixluva thats sports and surviving adversity. If Houston's floater doesnt drop in Mia than Jeff Van Gundy is a career bench scrub and probably an assistant for Thibs.

After a joke of year 1 Phil made some good moves to turn the tide in year 2. He is going to have to turn it again. Lets see how this unfolds.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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2/9/2016  2:48 PM
fishmike wrote:Nixluva thats sports and surviving adversity. If Houston's floater doesnt drop in Mia than Jeff Van Gundy is a career bench scrub and probably an assistant for Thibs.

After a joke of year 1 Phil made some good moves to turn the tide in year 2. He is going to have to turn it again. Lets see how this unfolds.

Sure I agree that it's always a mix of luck, preparation and talent. Phil has moved this team forward and despite the Fisher fail, IMO they're still on track with the Trade Deadline and Free Agency still ahead. It's actually still exciting to know that there are some possible improvements that could be made. I felt this way last year and I think Phil made very good progress this summer. So lets see what happens from here.

GoNyGoNyGo
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2/9/2016  2:57 PM
IMO, Phil Jackson is the best thing that has happened to the Knicks since JVG, so instead of bashing him, Knick fans should be thanking him for trying to change the culture. It is starting to work. Regardless of the offensive system, the team has to have character guys and play together.

This will take time, but in reality the team is a backcourt away from being dangerous. That is a lot but then again it's not.

I have faith and really hope PJax does not leave because then its back to Dolan running things.

crzymdups
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2/9/2016  3:01 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
Still, sometimes culture influences behavior inside organizations. Think Fisher never saw Phil Jackson bolting town to see Jeanie Buss? As one member of the Knicks organization wondered, "Where would [Fisher] get the idea that it was OK to fly to California on an off day to see your girlfriend?"
Also this strikes me as a bad sign. And maybe that Phil isn't working. Someone INSIDE the Knicks is cracking about Phil going to CA to visit his lady all the time. Essentially someone on the Knicks is calling Phil a hypocrit. (and they're not wrong.) There is dischord in MSG. As always.
Being a head coach and the team president is different. You can't miss a practice when you are the head coach.

Phil is setting the tone for the organization. Mostly he's been good at it. But his lack of presence can be read as a lack of commitment. And he himself admitted he may have failed Fisher as a mentor.

Phil is not teflon here. 17 win season, several questionable trades, the Fisher thing looks very bad. The KP thing is a saving grace. He might need another saving grace real soon. Maybe that's Rambis and they make the playoffs. Maybe they can get a trade or something in FA this summer.

I really question how much he wants to be here at this point. Woj and Isola are pretty plugged in - if they're both saying he wants to go back to LA, I think you have to believe there is some truth to it.

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arkrud
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2/9/2016  3:17 PM
crzymdups wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
Still, sometimes culture influences behavior inside organizations. Think Fisher never saw Phil Jackson bolting town to see Jeanie Buss? As one member of the Knicks organization wondered, "Where would [Fisher] get the idea that it was OK to fly to California on an off day to see your girlfriend?"
Also this strikes me as a bad sign. And maybe that Phil isn't working. Someone INSIDE the Knicks is cracking about Phil going to CA to visit his lady all the time. Essentially someone on the Knicks is calling Phil a hypocrit. (and they're not wrong.) There is dischord in MSG. As always.
Being a head coach and the team president is different. You can't miss a practice when you are the head coach.

Phil is setting the tone for the organization. Mostly he's been good at it. But his lack of presence can be read as a lack of commitment. And he himself admitted he may have failed Fisher as a mentor.

Phil is not teflon here. 17 win season, several questionable trades, the Fisher thing looks very bad. The KP thing is a saving grace. He might need another saving grace real soon. Maybe that's Rambis and they make the playoffs. Maybe they can get a trade or something in FA this summer.

I really question how much he wants to be here at this point. Woj and Isola are pretty plugged in - if they're both saying he wants to go back to LA, I think you have to believe there is some truth to it.

It is always a doubt in NY.
You have to win first and only then you will be recognized.
When you starting from below 0 and crolling you way up no one cares about the bumps and setbacks.
They will spill on you and put all dogs on you until you succeed.
That's why it takes extraordinary man and extraordinary luck to win in NY.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Nalod
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2/9/2016  3:26 PM
Wojo using the Phil to Jeannie rumor and it could be all hogwash.
At the same time Phil wants to leave the franchise right and he'll want his triangle guys to follow him.
Has Luke really paid his dues? By whose measure? His tenure as Kerrs replacement is not the same as taking over his own team.
Transparency in MSG is not seen, and thus writing about is not an accurate study.

Does the Next Coach of the Knicks have to be a big name? Or can he grow into the job?

EnySpree
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2/9/2016  6:34 PM
This is a fluff article. Just something for emotional fans to help prove their doomsday predictions. Been a fan too long to give a damn
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crzymdups
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2/9/2016  6:43 PM
EnySpree wrote:This is a fluff article. Just something for emotional fans to help prove their doomsday predictions. Been a fan too long to give a damn

It feels like a personal attack by Woj on Phil. He's gone after Lebron in this fashion, too. He seems to hold personal grudges.

Though you can't argue that this doesn't look too good for Phil.

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nyknickzingis
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2/9/2016  7:36 PM
Problem is it was clear to many of us that Fisher's rotations and inexperience in coaching the Triangle were hurting the team. His rotations were wack. His coaching of the Tri very poor. He was a great talker, got good effort from the guys, but in the end it's about also knowing how to run a rotation and scheme. Can't just sit there give pep talks all the time. Not unless you have like 3 superstars in 1 lineup.
anrst
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2/9/2016  8:29 PM
Phil has to go

It's clear that all along his goal has been to use the Knicks as a forum to prove that his triangular basketball mind is/was so good that his basketball life philosophy is so transcendent and championship caliber that he is great without mj pippen shaq Kobe.

Not hiring thibs will be indefensible.

He doesn't care about winning. Winnign would just be a convenient byproduct of his own vindication.

Nalod
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2/10/2016  7:05 AM
anrst wrote:Phil has to go

It's clear that all along his goal has been to use the Knicks as a forum to prove that his triangular basketball mind is/was so good that his basketball life philosophy is so transcendent and championship caliber that he is great without mj pippen shaq Kobe.

Not hiring thibs will be indefensible.

He doesn't care about winning. Winnign would just be a convenient byproduct of his own vindication.

24 months to turn around a franchise does not make things clear.
Phil has not left us yet.
Wojo got a big contract from Yahoo and has to put out more content.
BTW, nobody wins without great players. What your point fails to mention also is none of the great players had won until phil came to town. And they won big.

What need be measured is has phil pointed the franchise in the right direction?

Woj takes down Phil

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