callmened wrote:patience is a virtue! the knicks were a 17 win lottery team last yr. they brought in new players to fit in with younger players. i was not expecting contending for a title or even making the playoffs. all i asked for was development

in terms of needs; this is now a PG league...need a young PG. id "settle" for BJennings (young, something to prove and could be cheap coming off the injury)

PS i used to baby sit for Kyle anderson when he was a kid

see what you can do to pry him loose from the spurs, if you can. fundamentally sound and should continue to improve defensively.

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

I agree and i think everyone should agree that KP is a gigantic plus for us but i gotta say, i'm a little nervous about how long it could take to be a team ready to contend for deep playoff runs or championship runs cause we don't have the assets to make a big enough trade to get that next significant player in here unless we want that player bad enough to give up a future 1st round pick which most of us don't and we don't have any draft picks in this next draft and i don't really see us getting that big PG in the off season cause we're not getting Rondo or Conley and if we stay with this team we have now we'll only have like 18/19 million to spend in the off season which won't be enough to get us a big name like we need to put with Melo and KP.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

Championship caliber teams take a while, with few exceptions. It's gonna take awhile unless a dominant player bucks the trend like LeBron did, or if Phil has some connections out there to swing hook-up deals like Ainge and Mitch did.

Your'e gonna have to sit and chill.

But I'm not exactly sure what tough situation Phil entered into. Every player on the team was set to expire after his very first year. He could have had 100% cap space minus holds AND a top pick to work with...he chose otherwise, most notably Calderon and a maxed out Melo.

Phil wont have enough cap space because of decisions he made himself. I cant think of too many teams in the league that has a maxed out player in their prime and sitting 7 games under .500. Phil likely wont be here when the team reaches contender status, but hopefully he keeps the groundwork of a solid foundation. He's lacking in that overall. KP is the only true piece at the moment.

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

I agree and i think everyone should agree that KP is a gigantic plus for us but i gotta say, i'm a little nervous about how long it could take to be a team ready to contend for deep playoff runs or championship runs cause we don't have the assets to make a big enough trade to get that next significant player in here unless we want that player bad enough to give up a future 1st round pick which most of us don't and we don't have any draft picks in this next draft and i don't really see us getting that big PG in the off season cause we're not getting Rondo or Conley and if we stay with this team we have now we'll only have like 18/19 million to spend in the off season which won't be enough to get us a big name like we need to put with Melo and KP.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

Quite a of negativity in an overall positive building thread, but anyway...

Championship caliber teams take a while, with few exceptions. It's gonna take awhile unless a dominant player bucks the trend like LeBron did, or if Phil has some connections out there to swing hook-up deals like Ainge and Mitch did.

Your'e gonna have to sit and chill.

But I'm not exactly sure what tough situation Phil entered into. Every player on the team was set to expire after his very first year. He could have had 100% cap space minus holds AND a top pick to work with...he chose otherwise, most notably Calderon and a maxed out Melo.

Phil wont have enough cap space because of decisions he made himself. I cant think of too many teams in the league that has a maxed out player in their prime and sitting 7 games under .500. Phil likely wont be here when the team reaches contender status, but hopefully he keeps the groundwork of a solid foundation. He's lacking in that overall. KP is the only true piece at the moment.

The bad situation Phil was given was Amare' and his bad contract, Tyson Chandler and his big contract and he didn't want to be here, R.Felton and his horrible play and contract, A.Bargnani and his horrible contract, JR.Smith and his horrible everything bad he brought to this team (you do remember all the crap we had to deal with with him right?) Shump was always hurt and angry. You don't think that's a lot of bad to be given?? This is the team Phil had to deal with.
Melo--He was an ISO only player and was getting ready to hit free agency and we neede him.
Amare"--He had to go
T.Chandler--disgruntled and didn't want to be here
JR.Smith--brought nothing but bad to this team on and off the court
A.Bargnani--do i need to say anything about him??
Shump--Always angry and hurt
R.Felton--brought nothing to this team and had a bad contract that we all wanted gone
T.Hardaway--never gave us what we hoped and was very inconsistent with his shot and played no defense
K.Martin--i actually like K-Mart but he was old
P.Prigioni--another guy i liked but again old
And then just a bunch of bench players that weren't worth a damn and you don't think he was given a bad team full of bad salaries?? OK I'd also like to add that all those players that had to go weren't worth a damn to try to get anything for them cause they were all so bad for us the prior year. We all thought there was nobody that would want Tyson or Felton or JR Smith and we knew we weren't gonna get anything for those guys if we could get rid of them which is just what happened. The only really good thing that came out of trading those guys was L.Thomas and a couple 2nd round picks but those picks don't come for a few years. That's a very bad situation to be given.

Knixkik wrote:

dk7th wrote:i believe you earn or you make your luck and i believe in karma.

the team had been managed poorly for 14 years, and that's tantamount to *almost* two "basketball generations," as it were. this gives rise to a level of impatience-fueled irrationality and overly-high expectations. "playoffs?!? we talkin' 'playoffs!?!'" both jackson and fisher have earned and deserve leeway so long as some progress is made, and we have made great strides this season. i also respect fisher's character and intelligence... and i get annoyed by the crapping on he gets constantly.

patience is a virtue... and yields results. no-trade clause notwithstanding, i would not trade melo, i would trust him to continue developing an all-around role but at much fewer minutes-per-game. if he agrees to that-- say 24-26 minutes a game next season-- he remains effective for the rest of his contract with the knicks. that's a win. if he doesn't like a reduced role he can waive the no-trade clause.

make no mistake: that TOO is a win. it's a win-win! that's how all this should be played out, i reckon.

most champions do indeed have multiple all-stars. but with melo being effective in limited minutes like ginobili (and perhaps pierce) is, it helps alleviate the necessity for MORE than two all-star level knick starters.

kp is destined for all-stardom, and i pray he stays healthy and durable. it's always in the back of my mind. but if he stays healthy he is going to be a great knick and perhaps will achieve greatness.

the question is where we need to upgrade most, and my selection is shooting guard. i'd swap afflalo for EVAN TURNER if some sort of trade were available. he is similar in size to lance thomas and can play either the 2 or the 3 like thomas does too. valuable triangle type player because he is a terrific passer around and in the lane, which is where the most valuable passes take place. while not in an all-star capacity in boston, i believe he would thrive in the triangle and raise his game to all-star or near all-star level.

second choice: a player who most impressed me in summer league who is now with the spurs (big surprise): KYLE ANDERSON

i would not be concerned with getting rid of calderon, as i'd reduce his minutes to 20 per game next season and put galloway/grant out there. right now it's galloway for me.

Great post. We have our building block in KP and our mainstay in Melo. We can build from there. I believe Phil will be resourceful in finding a 3rd star to play alongside them and help to chop down on Melos usage over time so he can continue to play this way and be efficient for the next few years without wearing him down.

I believe in Phil and what he can do for this team but my problem is how the heck is he gonna get that 3rd star for us with no assets to trade, no draft picks in this draft and only $18/$19 million to spend if he doesn't get rid of certain players or if DW and AA don't use their opt outs and if they do then if he re-signs then then that will drop us down off of that $18/$19 million. He's got a lot of work to do and i'm still standing by what i've been saying that he needs to put everyone but Melo and KP on the trade block and get whatever he can in draft picks for whoever.

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

I agree and i think everyone should agree that KP is a gigantic plus for us but i gotta say, i'm a little nervous about how long it could take to be a team ready to contend for deep playoff runs or championship runs cause we don't have the assets to make a big enough trade to get that next significant player in here unless we want that player bad enough to give up a future 1st round pick which most of us don't and we don't have any draft picks in this next draft and i don't really see us getting that big PG in the off season cause we're not getting Rondo or Conley and if we stay with this team we have now we'll only have like 18/19 million to spend in the off season which won't be enough to get us a big name like we need to put with Melo and KP.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

Quite a of negativity in an overall positive building thread, but anyway...

Championship caliber teams take a while, with few exceptions. It's gonna take awhile unless a dominant player bucks the trend like LeBron did, or if Phil has some connections out there to swing hook-up deals like Ainge and Mitch did.

Your'e gonna have to sit and chill.

But I'm not exactly sure what tough situation Phil entered into. Every player on the team was set to expire after his very first year. He could have had 100% cap space minus holds AND a top pick to work with...he chose otherwise, most notably Calderon and a maxed out Melo.

Phil wont have enough cap space because of decisions he made himself. I cant think of too many teams in the league that has a maxed out player in their prime and sitting 7 games under .500. Phil likely wont be here when the team reaches contender status, but hopefully he keeps the groundwork of a solid foundation. He's lacking in that overall. KP is the only true piece at the moment.

The Calderon trade wasn't all about just getting rid of Tyson who needed to go cause he didn't want to be here but it also got rid of Felton and his bad contract which this year is the last year of the deal so we would of had to deal with having him all this time. Now did Calderon bring us what we hoped he'd bring?? No he didn't but he was injured most of his first year with us.

The bad situation Phil was given was Amare' and his bad contract, Tyson Chandler and his big contract and he didn't want to be here, R.Felton and his horrible play and contract, A.Bargnani and his horrible contract, JR.Smith and his horrible everything bad he brought to this team (you do remember all the crap we had to deal with with him right?) Shump was always hurt and angry. You don't think that's a lot of bad to be given?? This is the team Phil had to deal with.
Melo--He was an ISO only player and was getting ready to hit free agency and we neede him.
Amare"--He had to go
T.Chandler--disgruntled and didn't want to be here
JR.Smith--brought nothing but bad to this team on and off the court
A.Bargnani--do i need to say anything about him??
Shump--Always angry and hurt
R.Felton--brought nothing to this team and had a bad contract that we all wanted gone
T.Hardaway--never gave us what we hoped and was very inconsistent with his shot and played no defense
K.Martin--i actually like K-Mart but he was old
P.Prigioni--another guy i liked but again old
And then just a bunch of bench players that weren't worth a damn and you don't think he was given a bad team full of bad salaries?? OK

I disagree because every single one of these players were coming off the books....except Felton who could have been stretched for basically vet min salary. Phil didn't inherit the Brooklyn Nets, but that's how you're basically trying to portray things.

Phil could have opted for and here it is. 100% free cap space and a top pick. He chose something else.

New York Knicks president Phil Jackson said one of the reasons he wanted to ship Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to the Dallas Mavericks was to "change some of the chemistry" of his team.

"To do that we felt (it was) important to bring in some new personnel and start with some character guys that we feel can carry this forward," Jackson said on Thursday evening.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

I agree and i think everyone should agree that KP is a gigantic plus for us but i gotta say, i'm a little nervous about how long it could take to be a team ready to contend for deep playoff runs or championship runs cause we don't have the assets to make a big enough trade to get that next significant player in here unless we want that player bad enough to give up a future 1st round pick which most of us don't and we don't have any draft picks in this next draft and i don't really see us getting that big PG in the off season cause we're not getting Rondo or Conley and if we stay with this team we have now we'll only have like 18/19 million to spend in the off season which won't be enough to get us a big name like we need to put with Melo and KP.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

Quite a of negativity in an overall positive building thread, but anyway...

Championship caliber teams take a while, with few exceptions. It's gonna take awhile unless a dominant player bucks the trend like LeBron did, or if Phil has some connections out there to swing hook-up deals like Ainge and Mitch did.

Your'e gonna have to sit and chill.

But I'm not exactly sure what tough situation Phil entered into. Every player on the team was set to expire after his very first year. He could have had 100% cap space minus holds AND a top pick to work with...he chose otherwise, most notably Calderon and a maxed out Melo.

Phil wont have enough cap space because of decisions he made himself. I cant think of too many teams in the league that has a maxed out player in their prime and sitting 7 games under .500. Phil likely wont be here when the team reaches contender status, but hopefully he keeps the groundwork of a solid foundation. He's lacking in that overall. KP is the only true piece at the moment.

The Calderon trade wasn't all about just getting rid of Tyson who needed to go cause he didn't want to be here but it also got rid of Felton and his bad contract which this year is the last year of the deal so we would of had to deal with having him all this time. Now did Calderon bring us what we hoped he'd bring?? No he didn't but he was injured most of his first year with us.

The bad situation Phil was given was Amare' and his bad contract, Tyson Chandler and his big contract and he didn't want to be here, R.Felton and his horrible play and contract, A.Bargnani and his horrible contract, JR.Smith and his horrible everything bad he brought to this team (you do remember all the crap we had to deal with with him right?) Shump was always hurt and angry. You don't think that's a lot of bad to be given?? This is the team Phil had to deal with.
Melo--He was an ISO only player and was getting ready to hit free agency and we neede him.
Amare"--He had to go
T.Chandler--disgruntled and didn't want to be here
JR.Smith--brought nothing but bad to this team on and off the court
A.Bargnani--do i need to say anything about him??
Shump--Always angry and hurt
R.Felton--brought nothing to this team and had a bad contract that we all wanted gone
T.Hardaway--never gave us what we hoped and was very inconsistent with his shot and played no defense
K.Martin--i actually like K-Mart but he was old
P.Prigioni--another guy i liked but again old
And then just a bunch of bench players that weren't worth a damn and you don't think he was given a bad team full of bad salaries?? OK

I disagree because every single one of these players were coming off the books....except Felton who could have been stretched for basically vet min salary. Phil didn't inherit the Brooklyn Nets, but that's how you're basically trying to portray things.

Phil could have opted for and here it is. 100% free cap space and a top pick. He chose something else.

No GM is perfect and overall Phil has changed the direction of the franchise for the better. Some of his moves worked and others haven't but this team isn't as far off as the recent losses make it seem. We all see the games and there's clearly a path to improving this team for Phil. Just how successful he'll be is the question.

Everyone can see we need improvement at the guard spots and perhaps another quality SF and just better depth overall. Phil doesn't want to kill his cap situation for this summer either, unless he can get what he wants in a trade right now, which seems unlikely. Either way we'll learn soon enough.

He's made a few nice moves, I fully admit so, now whether those moves have WORKED...debatable. At the end of the day results matter, not hopes and dreams, and so far the results aren't there. The team is very behind the scope of being progress.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

knickscity wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

nixluva wrote:KP has changed my entire mood regarding the Knicks. All I want is for him to stay healthy and continue to grow as a player. He's been such a revelation that even these tough losses are somewhat mitigated by his promise as a future franchise player. It's all about KP's development as well as our other young players. Phil will have many more upgrades to make to the roster. Soon enough we'll see what Phil can get done. Hopefully he surprises us with s great move.

I agree and i think everyone should agree that KP is a gigantic plus for us but i gotta say, i'm a little nervous about how long it could take to be a team ready to contend for deep playoff runs or championship runs cause we don't have the assets to make a big enough trade to get that next significant player in here unless we want that player bad enough to give up a future 1st round pick which most of us don't and we don't have any draft picks in this next draft and i don't really see us getting that big PG in the off season cause we're not getting Rondo or Conley and if we stay with this team we have now we'll only have like 18/19 million to spend in the off season which won't be enough to get us a big name like we need to put with Melo and KP.

This for me is bad news and i don't think this is any fault of Phil cause he really came into a tough situation and he's making the best moves he's been able to with what he has but it's definitely somewhat concerning for me.

Quite a of negativity in an overall positive building thread, but anyway...

Championship caliber teams take a while, with few exceptions. It's gonna take awhile unless a dominant player bucks the trend like LeBron did, or if Phil has some connections out there to swing hook-up deals like Ainge and Mitch did.

Your'e gonna have to sit and chill.

But I'm not exactly sure what tough situation Phil entered into. Every player on the team was set to expire after his very first year. He could have had 100% cap space minus holds AND a top pick to work with...he chose otherwise, most notably Calderon and a maxed out Melo.

Phil wont have enough cap space because of decisions he made himself. I cant think of too many teams in the league that has a maxed out player in their prime and sitting 7 games under .500. Phil likely wont be here when the team reaches contender status, but hopefully he keeps the groundwork of a solid foundation. He's lacking in that overall. KP is the only true piece at the moment.

The Calderon trade wasn't all about just getting rid of Tyson who needed to go cause he didn't want to be here but it also got rid of Felton and his bad contract which this year is the last year of the deal so we would of had to deal with having him all this time. Now did Calderon bring us what we hoped he'd bring?? No he didn't but he was injured most of his first year with us.

The bad situation Phil was given was Amare' and his bad contract, Tyson Chandler and his big contract and he didn't want to be here, R.Felton and his horrible play and contract, A.Bargnani and his horrible contract, JR.Smith and his horrible everything bad he brought to this team (you do remember all the crap we had to deal with with him right?) Shump was always hurt and angry. You don't think that's a lot of bad to be given?? This is the team Phil had to deal with.
Melo--He was an ISO only player and was getting ready to hit free agency and we neede him.
Amare"--He had to go
T.Chandler--disgruntled and didn't want to be here
JR.Smith--brought nothing but bad to this team on and off the court
A.Bargnani--do i need to say anything about him??
Shump--Always angry and hurt
R.Felton--brought nothing to this team and had a bad contract that we all wanted gone
T.Hardaway--never gave us what we hoped and was very inconsistent with his shot and played no defense
K.Martin--i actually like K-Mart but he was old
P.Prigioni--another guy i liked but again old
And then just a bunch of bench players that weren't worth a damn and you don't think he was given a bad team full of bad salaries?? OK

I disagree because every single one of these players were coming off the books....except Felton who could have been stretched for basically vet min salary. Phil didn't inherit the Brooklyn Nets, but that's how you're basically trying to portray things.

Phil could have opted for and here it is. 100% free cap space and a top pick. He chose something else.

No GM is perfect and overall Phil has changed the direction of the franchise for the better. Some of his moves worked and others haven't but this team isn't as far off as the recent losses make it seem. We all see the games and there's clearly a path to improving this team for Phil. Just how successful he'll be is the question.

Everyone can see we need improvement at the guard spots and perhaps another quality SF and just better depth overall. Phil doesn't want to kill his cap situation for this summer either, unless he can get what he wants in a trade right now, which seems unlikely. Either way we'll learn soon enough.

You don't have to be perfect to be effective. The primary fault I have towards Phil is his deliberate avoidance of adding quality pg depth, and it ties directly into the system that he's forcing, and I can use that word because every component of his staff is triangle based with no variation at all. We have a ton of forwards, not sure what you mean there.

He's made a few nice moves, I fully admit so, now whether those moves have WORKED...debatable. At the end of the day results matter, not hopes and dreams, and so far the results aren't there. The team is very behind the scope of being progress.

i do wonder how delicate the balance will be between running the triangle versus folding in pick and roll stuff. the way i see things is that if the president believes in system basketball then that dictates who you sign. but the working towards "working as a unit" that fisher has kept hammering home all season would seem to indicate that he values passing and defending-- two hallmarks of working as a unit. i honestly don't foresee the knicks picking up anyone that needs the ball in his hands to be effective, especially pick and roll ball-dominant point guards.

besides, as nixluva has stated many times, and i have seen-- the triangle can only be effective for the first 10-13 seconds of a possessions before the offense "descends" to the two-man game, and then isolation only as a last resort. if we had players with better court vision and passing skills the triangle would be more effective. if we had players who were better at making simple entry passes that would help too.

that said, i like conley as a passer and defender, but i fear he is breaking down. again, the swingmen out there-- paul pierce is the paradigm and a player like evan turner is a reasonable version-- are likely to be more desirable pickups.