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we need to do something!!
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nadavshomron
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7/22/2004  6:15 AM
i saw here guys saying they would be happy with the roster we have right now, and that we would be .500 team (maybe).
i think we must add 1-2 players before training camp because we need to give them time to be a "team"-UNIT.
last season we heard about the fact the team needed time and a training camp to be as good as they can be, i don't want that to happen this season with a mid season trade.
we have two needs a starting center and a backup shoting guard.
we must get at least one before training camp.
we still can get "damp" for frank williams+deke or somthing like that.
jamal crawford is still in reach and if moochy is the problem keep him and buy him out(we already agreed to pay chicago for him).
if we get both before traning camp we would be 1-4 team in the east and a very talented team that has a chance to be an NBA campions.
the bottom line is to make deals before training camp
LJ FOR 4!!!!
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Silverfuel
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7/22/2004  7:43 AM
Posted by nadavshomron:

we have two needs a starting center and a backup shoting guard.
we must get at least one before training camp.
we still can get "damp" for frank williams+deke or somthing like that.
Agree with everything you say except those two.
1) We don't need a backup SG, we need a starting SG. We already have a backup SG in H2O.
2) I dont want to trade frank williams and deke for Dampier. I would trade them for Z though.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
TMS
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7/22/2004  11:14 AM
we don't HAVE to do anything...are the Knicks going to win a championship this season w/Dampier & Crawford? maybe, but chances are probably not...so why is Isiah so wrong in not bending over backwards & forfeiting all his viable future options by giving in & overpaying for 2 players who might or might not help this franchise win a title?

if you can get Dampier &/or Crawford at reasonable dollars, go for it...but to overpay a guy like Dampier 7 years at $75 mil when Rasheed Wallace looks like he's going to sign w/DET for 5 years at $57 million is totally unjustifiable...& Okur didn't get close that much from the Jazz either, so i don't see where Dampier & his agent are drawing his "market value" from here.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Nalod
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7/22/2004  11:22 AM
Seems every GM we have had in the last 30 years finds a new found sense of urgency and panic. These lead to compromise moves. Even during the 1990's, with the execption of Cartwright-Oakley trade, we always have the next year in mind only rather than build up a talent base, and a talent base that is flexible for trades also.

I am convinced we could have provided Ewing with the right players with a little more patience. Looking at this roster, we don't have that kind of caliber, nor a valid shot of being a SERIOUS contender.

I hope Isiah does not feel like he has to do it all in one year! Then its about him, not us: the fans!
Knicksfan
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7/22/2004  11:43 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Seems every GM we have had in the last 30 years finds a new found sense of urgency and panic. These lead to compromise moves. Even during the 1990's, with the execption of Cartwright-Oakley trade, we always have the next year in mind only rather than build up a talent base, and a talent base that is flexible for trades also.

I am convinced we could have provided Ewing with the right players with a little more patience. Looking at this roster, we don't have that kind of caliber, nor a valid shot of being a SERIOUS contender.

I hope Isiah does not feel like he has to do it all in one year! Then its about him, not us: the fans!

This post looks familiar to me... Hmmm.....
Knicks_Fan
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7/22/2004  12:00 PM
Posted by TMS:

we don't HAVE to do anything...are the Knicks going to win a championship this season w/Dampier & Crawford? maybe, but chances are probably not...so why is Isiah so wrong in not bending over backwards & forfeiting all his viable future options by giving in & overpaying for 2 players who might or might not help this franchise win a title?

if you can get Dampier &/or Crawford at reasonable dollars, go for it...but to overpay a guy like Dampier 7 years at $75 mil when Rasheed Wallace looks like he's going to sign w/DET for 5 years at $57 million is totally unjustifiable...& Okur didn't get close that much from the Jazz either, so i don't see where Dampier & his agent are drawing his "market value" from here.

I agree with you. We don't really have to make a move. If a deal comes in our way and makes sense in talent and in money, then we should take it. But making a deal just for the sake of dealing and changing the team a bit is a big mistake. This way of thinking is what has us in this situation. The best way is to make intelligent deals that helps our future and gives us financial flexibility. If that deal doesn't happen, then don't make a panic move. Just stay put and something will happen later. I would like the Crawford deal to happen because its a move for now and for the future, we lose bad contracts and get players that can produce. But if that doesn't happen, we'll move on.

Dampier isn't really worth that much money compared to what Sheed got. If you can get him with a contract like that one then ok, but more is a bad deal. With the MLE he would look to go someplace else so we don't play on that.
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TMS
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7/22/2004  12:09 PM
the Hawks are only offering Damps 3 years, so they're pretty much out of the running...so what other options does Dampier have at this point? sign elsewhere for less money, less years & less prestige, or sign w/the Knicks for the same amount that another allstar bigman is signing for this year & play on a team in the largest market w/a chance at making the postseason as well? why should Isiah overpay for him? it doesn't make any sense at all...like you just said, if nothing happens now, there WILL be other options open at the trading deadline...it's moronic to bid against yourself & overpay for a guy who can't get nearly the same offer from any other team...don't any of you remember what happened w/the whole Allan Houston fiasco? why would you want that repeated here?

the same situation applies to Jamal Crawford...if he isn't going to lower his salary demands, then let him stay in Chicago! are the Knicks going to fold as a franchise if they don't get Jamal Crawford making more money than any other team would be willing to pay him?

[Edited by - TMS on 07/22/2004 12:10:18]
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fishmike
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7/22/2004  12:15 PM
Dampier's options are crap and its a blessing in disguise. Unless the Clippers or some team comes out of nowhere we have as good a shot as any, and being that we were willing to give him bigtime $$$ might count for something.

Hopefully (for us) his agent screwed him like Olowakandi's did and he takes a 2 year MLE offer, or the 6 year deal. That would be a hell of a pickup, then we could move some of our bigs for a variety of options.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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7/22/2004  12:21 PM
the only other option Dampier really has is maybe a sign & trade w/the Grizzlies for Stro Swift, since i have heard that the Warriors were amenable to that deal...but again, how much is he going to make in that scenario that would be so much better than taking a comparable offer to Rasheed's deal w/the Pistons in a sign & trade w/the Knicks?

if Isiah succeeds in getting the Bulls to include Pippen in that sign & trade for Jamal Crawford, then i think he'll have the necessary pieces to get a deal done w/the Warriors, & hopefully, he won't have to overpay for him & give in to Dampier & his agent's ridiculous ideas of his actual "market value".
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simrud
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7/22/2004  1:32 PM
Dampier options are dwindling by the minute.

Originally there were 4 teams in the runnin for him, LA, Indy, Grizz, and NY. LA used up the MLE on Divac. Indy used up half of there MLE on Anthony Johnson. Grizz have used up the MLE on Cardinal. Out of the original 4, NY is the only team with the full MLE remaining.

The rest of the teams in the NBA either are rebuilding and not lookin to pick up a 30 year old expensive center, already have centers, or have no money to spend anymore.

So what can Dampier do at this ponit if the Warrios simply don't want any more payroll like they seem they don't. Unless I'm missing something NY's full MLE is his only option.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TMS
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7/22/2004  1:38 PM
he can sign w/ATL for the 3 years if he wants, but he'd still be getting a worse package than he would if he just reduced the amount of years he's asking for in this Knicks sign & trade proposal.

forget about getting him for the MLE...that's not going to happen.
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djsunyc
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7/22/2004  1:56 PM
sometimes waiting is the best thing. i think toine didn't get traded till september or october of last year. and i think we got x-man at the end of august back in 91.

dampier is definitely screwed. the knicks deal looks to be off the table and now he's scrambling for a suitor. atlanta came up BIG and actually made a GREAT decision by offering only 3 years. if the clippers match Q's contract, and they probably will, then i think the suns will throw $50 or so million at him. if it is in fact the MLE dampier is left with, then i bet jerry west is kicking himself in the head for signing cardinal.

but this leaves us in a good position. i think our expiring deals of deke, othella, and cezary will land us a really good player at the break so i'd like to hold on to them till then.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07/22/2004 14:03:09]
Knicksfan
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7/22/2004  1:58 PM
Posted by TMS:

he can sign w/ATL for the 3 years if he wants, but he'd still be getting a worse package than he would if he just reduced the amount of years he's asking for in this Knicks sign & trade proposal.

forget about getting him for the MLE...that's not going to happen.

But I think that simrud is right in the fact that Dampier doesn't really have a lot of options. Indiana, Memphis, and LA have used their MLE so if Dampier can't get a sign-n-trade done and he doesn't want to be in a rebuilder in Atlanta, what other choices he has? If you can get him with the MLE thats a great pickup, but for more I don't think so.
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fishmike
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7/22/2004  2:16 PM
TMS... its certainly not likely but it happens to good players every year. Remember Swift is an RFA and the Grizz need to keep payroll in a manageable zone as Gason is due for an $8 mill raise next year. They have some young players still in rookie deals. I'm sure they could do better than a MLE but how much better? How much doe West want to pay a 30 year old center?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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7/22/2004  2:20 PM
Posted by TMS:

forget about getting him for the MLE...that's not going to happen.
If the Warriors don't want to take on more money via sign and trade, his only option is the MLE or a shorter deal (3 years with Atlanta) unless a team like the Bobcats or Clippers decide to give him a better deal (which seems unlikely). A few weeks ago, I would have said forget about Dampier for the MLE, but now it looks like that may end up being his best option.

Every year a few players get screwed by their agents and end up getting less than they could have. That may happen to Dampier this summer.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/22/2004 14:21:09]
VDesai
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7/22/2004  2:24 PM
Its either Atlanta or the MLE, and its entirely concievable that he doesnt want to play for the Hawks who won't be contenders for quite along time, and who aren't really offering a deal that knocks his socks off anyway. I can see Dampier signing the MLE for 1 year (with a possible player option year) and trying his luck again next year. Why not in NY where he'd be most visible? And the other option is that he takes a full 6 year MLE so he can have some long term security before he retiries...but I'd give that a slim to none.
VDesai
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7/22/2004  2:26 PM
As I said on another thread, Dampier should fire his agent once he signs.
TMS
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7/22/2004  3:32 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

forget about getting him for the MLE...that's not going to happen.
If the Warriors don't want to take on more money via sign and trade, his only option is the MLE or a shorter deal (3 years with Atlanta) unless a team like the Bobcats or Clippers decide to give him a better deal (which seems unlikely). A few weeks ago, I would have said forget about Dampier for the MLE, but now it looks like that may end up being his best option.

Every year a few players get screwed by their agents and end up getting less than they could have. That may happen to Dampier this summer.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 07/22/2004 14:21:09]

why would ANY player agree to play 6 years for MLE money when he could make the same net amount over 3? does that make any sense to anyone?
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CTKnicksfan
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7/22/2004  3:54 PM
Posted by TMS:

why would ANY player agree to play 6 years for MLE money when he could make the same net amount over 3? does that make any sense to anyone?

The deal Atlanta is offering I thought was 24-26mm for 3 years. The full MLE is 38 mm for 6 years. Now, If Damp signed for 26mm for 3 years he would be guaranteed less but would be a FA sooner. How much do you think Damp will pull down in his next deal at 33 years old? Who knows what will happen in those 3 years? He could suffer a career ending injury for all we know, or he could flourish, but it's a risky proposition for him.

For argument's sake, lets say he performs like his career averages 10-12 pts and 8-10 rebounds per game. At 33 maybe he could get a MLE offer for 3 years 16mm. That's a total of 42mm over the 6 years as opposed to 38mm if he just took someone's MLE. But the 2nd contract is not guaranteed. He'd essentially be risking 12mm of guaranteed money to maybe make an extra 4mm over the next 6 years. Risky.

Not to mention the fact that he'd be on a bad team, and you'd think he'd like to see the playoffs before he retires.

[Edited by - ctknicksfan on 07/22/2004 16:00:05]
TMS
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7/22/2004  4:16 PM
i had thought the 3 year offer was for more annual value, but if what you said is true then i can see the logic behind this line of thinking...i still don't think Dampier would take the MLE though...i think the Knicks have more of a realistic shot to get Crawford to sign for the MLE than they do Dampier.

i still say it will take a sign & trade to get Dampier on the Knicks...if he chooses to take less to play here, then i will be thoroughly shocked & impressed.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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