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Forget Dampier, better trade with Cavs.
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TLover
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7/21/2004  9:05 PM
We should let someone else over-pay for Dampier and trade
Kurt Thomas for DeSegana Diop & Dejuan Wagner.

Diop is 7 ft 300 lbs and only 21 years old. He is a good rebounder, shotblocker and most importantley match-up in size with Shaq.
A coach like Mark Aguirre can help him reach his ultamate potential.

Wagner is an exciting combo guard who can work in with Marbury and Allan. He has a little Iverson in him and a backcourt with him and Starbury can be very exciting. Also Allan Houston is a family friend and can serve as a great mentor.

Kurt would replace Boozer perfectly and the Cavs would have the potential to be a very good playoff team.

Pg: Snow, McKinnis
Sg: Lebron
SF: Eric Williams (if re-signed)
PF: Kurt
C: Big Z, Tony Battie

The knicks would still have the pieces to make a trade for Crawford, Walker, or even Vince Carter.

The Knicks should keep Deke around to not only mentor Diop but he will be a valuable trading chip at mid-season.
AUTOADVERT
JayNYC
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7/21/2004  9:10 PM
I like that move.. no question. But I think they'd deal Big Z before dealing away youth and potential for KT; nah mean

But If i'm gonna trade for an underachiever, I'd target a young one as opposed to overpaying for one whos 30.... feel me! Your trade is more inline with my suggestions. Good One!
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mintyfreshness33
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7/21/2004  9:13 PM
A coach like Mark Aguirre can help him reach his ultamate potential.

im tired of hearing how our big-men coach can turn just about anyone into some super star, i know agguire is nice, but diop aint prove nothin to me yet.

Degjun wagner is nice, young atheletic loads of potential.

The knicks would still have the pieces to make a trade for Crawford, Walker, or even Vince Carter.

not if kurt is gone. maybe for crawford, but w/o kurt we aint getting toine or vince.
TLover
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7/21/2004  9:25 PM
mintyfreshness33 quote:
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A coach like Mark Aguirre can help him reach his ultamate potential.
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im tired of hearing how our big-men coach can turn just about anyone into some super star, i know agguire is nice, but diop aint prove nothin to me yet.

_____________________________________________________________________


Well he worked with Jermaine O'neal, Ron Artest, and Al Harrington and they turned out pretty good - don't you think.


This is not such a big gamble because if one or both fail (which I don't think will happen) it is at a minimial cost. As opposed to having Dampier stuck on the cap for 7 years.


We still have plenty of players to make a trade for a player like Walker, Shariff Abdul Rahim, and I would still look to do the Crawford trade because I believe you could never have enough young players with potential. They will either pan out for your team or be used as trade bait with another team. (i.e. Frank Williams)
kam77
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7/21/2004  9:40 PM
Dejuan Wagner is a bust. Did you guys read that writeup on him in summer league. They were killing this guy for dribbling the air out of the ball if he could. He doesn't pass when he penetrates yo uknow he's shooting.
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Bonn1997
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7/21/2004  9:59 PM
Posted by TLover:

We should let someone else over-pay for Dampier and trade
Kurt Thomas for DeSegana Diop & Dejuan Wagner.

Here's some great news: Kurt is not part of any of the proposed trades to get Dampier, meaning we can try to get Dampier and ALSO pursue the trade you suggested above
Vmart
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7/21/2004  10:10 PM
I feel this trade. Diop would be a great move and maybe better move than Dampier. With Kareem and Agguire along with Herb they can teach the kid the game the way it suppose to be played. I just Like the idea of giving Kareem a young player with size and athleticism to teach. He can teach him the hook. Just as Ewing played a part in developing of Ming although Ming was light years ahead of Diop. I think Kareem can make a difference and make Diop into an impact player.
technomaster
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7/22/2004  2:28 AM
Interesting trade idea. Wouldn't that be a major coup, trading Kurt Thomas for 2 lottery picks?!! 22 year old Diop and 21 year old Wagner...

However, given that both of them have looked like major busts in the NBA, their value is waaaaay down (so much for showcasing their abilities in the summer leagues, eh?).

On principle, this would make up for the draft picks we've traded away in recent years. Knee ailments aside, don't these two guys still have loads of untapped potential, the very same potential that got them drafted in the lottery in the first place?

The argument is that maybe under the right tutelage, they'd both be capable of unleashing their inner talent. They're serious projects, folks, and it'll take a lot of mentoring to get them up to speed. With Isiah, Kareen, & Aguirre on staff, maybe, just maybe they'd be able to get their careers on the right track. It seems to be working w/ Sweetney.

It would be sad to see Wagner not even reach the level of success of a Terry Dehere or Shawn Respert, let alone live up to the hype of being the next Iverson/Francis... or even a Chauncey Billups.

Diop is a mess with a lot of young potential.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
TMS
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7/22/2004  11:09 AM
Posted by kam77:

Dejuan Wagner is a bust. Did you guys read that writeup on him in summer league. They were killing this guy for dribbling the air out of the ball if he could. He doesn't pass when he penetrates yo uknow he's shooting.

funny how you can come up w/that conclusion after he's only been in the league for 2 years & has been injured for much of that time...did you conclude that Jamal Crawford was also a bust after his 1st 3 years in the league as well? compare the both of their stats their 1st 2 years & re-think your words here...i don't get how anyone can say that Wagner's a bust based on the limited sample of 2 injury filled seasons.
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Bonn1997
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7/22/2004  2:14 PM
Crawford's never been a 36% shooter like Wagner. His FG% dropped this year as he was asked to take on too big a scoring role, but otherwise he's always been in the low 40s. I think it's a little generous to write off two full seasons due to injuries. I'm not saying he's a bust yet; he does have a lot of skills. But he has been a huge disappointment so far.
simrud
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7/22/2004  3:14 PM
If anybody is a bust its Diop. Dude just can't ball. He stunk it up in the summere league too. I don't want no part of him. He mabye 7 feet and 300 but he's got no game. Wagner is another bust, he stunk it up in the summre league, if you can't dominate there you are done. So essentially you are poposing tradin KT for 2 busts. Great idea.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
TMS
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7/22/2004  3:38 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Crawford's never been a 36% shooter like Wagner. His FG% dropped this year as he was asked to take on too big a scoring role, but otherwise he's always been in the low 40s. I think it's a little generous to write off two full seasons due to injuries. I'm not saying he's a bust yet; he does have a lot of skills. But he has been a huge disappointment so far.

Wagner's played in a total of 91 games over 2 seasons...so that's a fair sample to judge unequivacally that this kid is a bust or not?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/statistics?statsId=3120

have you guys bothered to check out Jermaine O'Neal's #'s over his 1st 4 seasons? did he qualify as a bust too under this type of logic?

...maybe people should wait a little before making such assumptions...the kid was taken in the top 5 only 2 years ago...he must have some talent & ability...i think i would wait til i see him play some more games before i proclaim him to be a bust.
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Bonn1997
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7/22/2004  4:44 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Crawford's never been a 36% shooter like Wagner. His FG% dropped this year as he was asked to take on too big a scoring role, but otherwise he's always been in the low 40s. I think it's a little generous to write off two full seasons due to injuries. I'm not saying he's a bust yet; he does have a lot of skills. But he has been a huge disappointment so far.

Wagner's played in a total of 91 games over 2 seasons...so that's a fair sample to judge unequivacally that this kid is a bust or not?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/statistics?statsId=3120

have you guys bothered to check out Jermaine O'Neal's #'s over his 1st 4 seasons? did he qualify as a bust too under this type of logic?

...maybe people should wait a little before making such assumptions...the kid was taken in the top 5 only 2 years ago...he must have some talent & ability...i think i would wait til i see him play some more games before i proclaim him to be a bust.
Agreed; I specifically said that I would NOT call him a bust yet, but that his first two years have been a huge disappointment. Crawford played well in limited minutes before last year (when he finally got a lot of minutes). I wouldn't compare Jamal and Wagner
TMS
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7/22/2004  5:04 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Agreed; I specifically said that I would NOT call him a bust yet, but that his first two years have been a huge disappointment. Crawford played well in limited minutes before last year (when he finally got a lot of minutes). I wouldn't compare Jamal and Wagner

i was addressing kam77 when he said Wagner was a bust...not you Bonn...i know his 1st 2 seasons haven't been great, but there have been many young players who've posted similar or worse stats in their 1st few years in the league who have gone on to have good NBA careers...to say he's a bust already is short sighted.
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crzymdups
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7/22/2004  8:10 PM
uh....getting back to the subject...

Diop is a piece of crap. If you go to Hoopshype.com they have reviews of players in the summer league and there's a couple of scouts who say that Diop is one of the worst players they've ever seen. I don't think we need him. Also, Wagner is small and can't shoot. Jamal Crawford is big and long armed and he can shoot better. Dampier will be the second or third best center in the East, Diop is a project at BEST. I say keep up the good fight for Damps and Craw and oh yeah... BE MORE PATIENT!!!! Good things take time to put together.
¿ △ ?
Bonn1997
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7/22/2004  8:26 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

Also, Wagner is small and can't shoot. Jamal Crawford is big and long armed and he can shoot better.
That's a good point. I still don't mind getting Wagner if we don't have to give up anything valuable, though. At this point, I wouldn't give up one of our expiring contracts for him
TMS
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7/22/2004  8:40 PM
you wouldn't give up Othella Harrington for him? i sure as hell would...i'd even throw in a 2nd round pick if need be...i doubt the Cavs would agree to it, but if his value is as low as you guys think it is, i don't see why they wouldn't considering how thin they are at the PF position now.

i think Wagner could work out real well for the Knicks...he's a close family friend of Allan Houston, so he can teach him the ropes here...& Isiah loves small, quick G's w/potential, which he is...he had a bad Sophomore season & his rookie year was decent but injuries prevented him from fulfilling the expectations placed on him as a high lottery pick...i think if you put him behind a couple of veteran G's like Houston & Marbury & w/some good coaching by Lenny & Isiah, that he would develop into a good player in time.

an ending contract would be a small price to pay for a young talent of his calibre...& if he didn't work out, you can simply not exercise the team option for '05, so his contract would be in effect an expiring deal anyway...what's the risk as compared to the potential gains here?
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Bonn1997
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7/23/2004  2:20 AM
There are other ways I'd prefer to use our expiring contracts. Using any of them to get Wagner might be my plan D or E.
Rich
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7/23/2004  2:55 AM
If the Knicks keep Penny and TT, they will have enough expiring contracts next Summer to be players. They just have to hold the fort until then.
TMS
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7/23/2004  8:56 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

There are other ways I'd prefer to use our expiring contracts. Using any of them to get Wagner might be my plan D or E.

but i just got done telling you that Wagner has a team option for '05, so in essence, he has an expiring contract as well...if he doesn't work out, you simply don't pick up the option & he becomes a FA...if he does, you pick up the option & you have yourself a good young player that you got for peanuts...it's a low risk proposition w/big potential rewards.

i don't think the Cavs would go for it, but it's worth asking them about...they could use some depth at the PF afterall.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Forget Dampier, better trade with Cavs.
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