Here is a website that lists Phil's PGs through the years.
http://www.82games.com/uy4.htm

Take out the Gary Payton year, and 4.4 from Derek Fisher is the top APG that you get. Pippen, Jordan, Bryant, that's who had the ball, that's who gave out the assists. I believe that's why Grant struggles in the system, and Calderon is great except for the fact that his defense is atrocious. He doesnt get the assists anymore, and can hit the outside shot, and thats what you need out of a triangle PG.

The last 4 years, Batum has averaged 4.9, 5.1, 4.8 and this year 5.4. Why couldn't he run the point?

The issues I could see are: He's great defensively, but at 6'8 may have trouble covering some of the smaller PGs in the league. And, his outside shot is not amazing. But I just don't see why the Knicks can't have Afflalo and Batum start in the backcourt, 6-8 and 6-5, with a 6-8 SF, 7'3 PF, and 7'0 C. Lot's of length, and since I don't see Calderon here next year, I think Galloway and Grant come off the bench, so we still have enough traditional PGs.

Defensive PG - maybe grant steps in? maybe Wroten? Murry? Beverly?
Batum - playmaker
Melo - playmaker
KP6 - basketgod
Rolo - hookman, defensive guy

bench
Grant
Galloway
Afflalo
Lance
DWill
KOQ

wargames wrote:Batum would likely be signed to be a better version of Lance and would take his role and minutes. In a best case scenario he might become the starter and AA would move to the bench as the 6th man since AA is the best iso player on the roster behind Melo.

As a PG I doubt it would work. He would be run down chasing all those small fast players and he doesn't have a post game to really take advantage of his size. However he would be a great upgrade to Lance (who isn't a bum but not nearly as good as Batum) and would give the Knicks another defensive weapon to throw at teams that rely on wing players for scoring like Indy, Miami, and the Cavs.

He's had some great assist games this year, though his turnover to assist ratio has increased as his APG has gone up with his added role as the leader in assists on the Hornets.

nyknickzingis wrote:The Triangle doesn't have a point guard. It has a 2 guard front that bring the ball up. Make an initiation pass, then go into the Triangle.
What's needed is guys from the wing able to make plays - make passes.

This is where Batum fits in really well. He's someone that when the guard brings the ball up, initiates the offense, Batum can be in position to make passes or go to work himself. Afflalo in contrast can't really pass like that. He can go to work - he can score real well, maybe as good as Batum even. But he doesn't see the cutters or open guys much. Too much tunnel vision.

Also the flexibility of the Triangle is that Melo or any of the 5 players could bring the ball up. They're trying to get Derrick Williams to start doing this. If Batum is on the roster - the Knicks now could play lineups with Galloway, Afflalo, Batum, Melo and KP or Lopez at 5, and you have 4 of those guys (Gallo, AA, Melo or Batum) able to bring the ball up and initiate the offense.

It's also why I'm not sure Phil Jackson will pay someone like Mike Conley 80-100 million when he really just wants the PG to being able to do what Galloway does, just with a more consistent level than Gallo has shown. In contrast he wants wing players just like Melo, Batum, Derrick Williams, as they can do the playmaking once the offense has been initiated.

I generally agree with everything above. Realistically I only pay attention to Batum and Conley through boxscores and it seems that Batum would do just as much or more within the Triangle as Conley.

The one thing I would say in regards to the bolded statement is that if you have someone like Westbrook, ie Conely on steroids, Phil would definitely pay max to have that cat on the Knicks to play PG. In the end, you still need superstars to win.

nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah if Russell were serious about coming I think Phil would sign him, but I'd guess that Phil would view him as the 2 in that scenario, and ask others to initiate the offense. He'd be putting Russell in a very uncomfortable spot if he were to bring the ball up and initiate the offense only to go cut to the corner or dump the ball in the post. It's not something Russell would thrive with. If the Knicks ever had a player like that, you would want Grant or Galloway doing that aspect of the Triangle and Westbrook playing the Afflalo role - obviously with higher usage and a different style of scoring than Afflalo does.

In principle though a ball dominant high usage point guard is the worst type of player for Triangle culture. I don't think they'll be high on trying to recruit any of those guys nor would they think those guys would love to be point guards in the Triangle. If you look at the Knicks the way they're built, very similar front line to Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Kobe type of team or the Bulls teams that were long, big and very skilled with their wing and bigs. In contrast the point guards have been just designated offense starters who spot up mostly. I think Galloway is our best prospect in this regard. He fits in real well. Has defensive talent. The position I keep stressing the Knicks need to upgrade is the 2 spot. Afflalo is solid, but if they can get a star at the 2, the Triangle and this team's offense will hit another gear and truly reach contender status.

Your operating on a bit of a misconception about the triangle. In the triangle there are lead guards and off guards positions but the players who are in that position don't even have to be guards. They just have to perform the task that position requires. For example Melo plays the same position in the offense Kobe and Jordan played which was the title of "lead guard" but Melo is usually at the SF/PF position.

The off guard position has traditionally been the PG on Phil's team who brings the ball up, passes it to initiate the offense and then cuts to try and get a 3 pt shot. The Off-guard doesn't have to initiate the offense, but they have to be able to pass, cut, and shoot a 3 (and in the best case scenario, defend well). Right now Calderon is the off guard, but AA, Gallo, and Grant have played that role at times when they are on the court. In the next two Free Agencies ('16 & '17) the PG's who would fit the Off Guard best would be Conley, and George Hill. Both those guys could be great off guards.

However if the knicks got Batum, he would mostly play the off guard's "role" even if he paying SF in the lineup. He has the handle to initiate a half court offense, shoot the 3 ball off of screens (his specialty) and cut. Pippen passing ability allowed him to play off of Jordan in a similar way though Batum would be asked to do a lot less offensively.

The Lead guards job is to ISO score (by driving or shooting), or Post score or Post Pass to a open shooter, or get open and shoot the 3. Melo and AA have taken turns doing this this season. AA mostly by posting (and he's been killing it this year doing that) and Melo by shooting and driving. It basically requires a player who can create for himself and shoot. Russell Westbrook would thrive at that role. Guys like Lowry, Teague and CP3 (if he passed quicker) could also operate in that spot. Especially with a guy like Batum playing the off guard spot from the SG/SF position. AA could still play alongside Melo and Russell, he would be the 3rd option though but could play the lead guard position with both Melo and Russell slashing to get open for a 3.

Its why I think a lineup/core of Russell, AA, Batum, Melo, and KP would be nasty. It has great Triangle potential because all 5 are what you want in triangle players. They can shoot, pass, and defend. Especially with guys like RoLo (who lets the knicks play a big line up), D Will and Grant (who let them play a fast lineup ) and Lance and Gallo (who can come in and play hard Defense for spot minutes). I also like the idea of O'quinn and Willy since they can bring big man depth throughout the season in case of an injury. The only thing they would need to make that a great triangle lineup is a spot up 3 pt shooter (maybe freddette?) to keep defenses from focusing to much on the lead guard.

So basically Batum would be great in the Off guard position but would not be the PG on the team. He would come in and basically do what Fisher did for LA, but from the SG/SF position. I hope after reading what I wrote you would understand the difference between the two.

yellowboy90 wrote:Yes, Batum could run the team if he learns the triangle. He can't defend pgs so you need someone who can. Be would make it easier to start Gallo at pg.

Exactly!! because Gallo could focus on scoring more like he did last year with Batum beside him doing the stuff needed from the Offguard.