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Boy Phil Jackson and his writer are awful quiet
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BRIGGS
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12/29/2015  11:54 AM
Last year they were bi monthly contributors and graders to our shtty team.

Now that we spent 100mm in the offseason and had 6 draft picks in 2 years--hes gone very quiet.

RIP Crushalot😞
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martin
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12/29/2015  12:03 PM
that's cause they didn't start to come out until the end of the year (end of June):

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13135724/phil-files-part-1-jackson-opens-knicks-training-camp

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13418999/the-phil-files-part-9-new-beginning

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GustavBahler
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12/29/2015  12:13 PM
I thought Phil was going to be more involved. When things were going well, a case could be made for staying in the background. Not time to cue Micheal Ray Richardson just yet, but I do believe its time for Phil to follow through on his pledge.

Its been a while since Fisher has seen Phil work with players for an extended period, maybe having him around will help Fisher retool his approach. Im sure the players would love to see Phil around more, they were saying it in SL.

Im guessing Phil is concerned about upstaging Fisher and hearing calls to return to coaching. Still, KP's and Grant's development have to be considered, Melo's remaining prime, and the ability to attract free agents.

Upper echelon FAs probably want to see more than one season of stability, or growth. The sooner Phil works the problem the better IMO.

Nalod
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12/29/2015  12:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2015  12:18 PM
Jump to conclusions quick do we?

Today Charley Rosen was quoted and does mention those very insights...........

Knicks coach Derek Fisher got off scot-free Monday after the NBA concluded its investigation into his love-triangle fight with Matt Barnes in Los Angeles.

Now Fisher has to do a better job in fixing the Knicks’ triangle offense, which he finally acknowledged is broken after Sunday night’s fourth straight loss.

In an interview Monday with The Post, Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson’s confidant and his former Continental Basketball Association assistant coach, confirmed the Knicks’ system offense is lagging under Fisher’s watch, riddled with bad picks, a lack of proper movement, too much dribbling and not enough backdoor cuts.

The question is, whose fault is this? According to a source, there’s a growing sense among some players in the locker room Fisher is viewed more as a “preacher’’ and “motivator’’ than an expert in-game tactician or Xs-and-Os master.

That probably should be expected, considering Fisher has 1 ¼ seasons of coaching experience on any level. Bucks coach Jason Kidd, now on a medical leave, also is considered to be in the same boat, well behind as a tactician.

According to the source, Fisher’s assistant coaches, including Brian Keefe, Kurt Rambis and Jim Cleamons, are more versed in the strategic concepts. The source said Carmelo Anthony has come to Fisher recently to lobby for rookie Kristaps Porzingis to be more involved in the offense late in games to take the burden off him. Indeed, Porzingis had plays run for him down the stretch in Boston on Sunday.

“If you run the triangle, you have to make a total commitment to the triangle,’’ said Rosen, who writes a technical basketball column for todaysfastbreak.com. “It’s not like a part-time thing that you just use some of it. If that’s your offense, you got to commit to it. It doesn’t look like they’re really committed to it.

“They’re running it in a half-assed way. It’s not creating the kind of shots it would normally create.’’

Rosen is working on an online series detailing the Knicks’ season through Jackson’s eyes, to be published on his website after the campaign. Rosen said Jackson is still committed to the triangle.

Asked about Jackson’s mood, with the Knicks at 14-18 and falling into 12th place in the Eastern Conference, four games out of the eighth seed, Rosen said: “He enjoys wins, doesn’t enjoy the losses. He’s not a good loser.’’

Jackson last spoke to the media three days before training camp, his silence growing odder by the week. With the Knicks on the road, Jackson spent Christmas week in New York, with his kids flying into town. Jackson had promised to be more involved with the coaching staff this season, with film work.

Asked if Fisher still is learning on the job and had not mastered teaching basketball Xs and Os, Rosen said: “I think that’s valid. How much did he learn from coaching a team that won 17 games? What he did do last year was kept them playing hard, a monumental accomplishment.’’

Fisher wasn’t pleased with the offensive flow Sunday, when the team shot 37 percent. Unsolicited, he said the offense is not being run with enough commitment. Of the loss, Fisher said, in part: “It was more about our inability to work offensively as a group. We have to find a way to play offense together, and it will make it easier and allow everyone to contribute.’’

Because of the stigma developed last season over the triangle, Fisher rarely talks about it with the press.

“I don’t know if he’s not harping on them or they are resistant,’’ Rosen said. “It’s 32 games. They should be running it better, unless Fisher isn’t fully committed to it.

“I see the weak-side picks are awful. They are loose. Nobody’s headhunting or looking for somebody. It’s just very, very loose.’’

Rosen, one of the game’s staunchest triangle advocates, had a laundry list of things he doesn’t see happening, including the big men not cutting to the free-throw line where they can help out a wing player with the ball.

Though the Knicks lead the league in post-ups, using Arron Afflalo and Carmelo Anthony, they aren’t getting enough out of them. Rosen said Porzingis, even though he has gotten stronger, isn’t “holding the space in the low post. He gets pushed out, and it ruins the spacing.”

Center Robin Lopez, according to Rosen, is holding his space in the post, but “has to relearn his footwork,” saying that has caused a lot of his off-balance shots in the paint.

Finally, Rosen sees too many double-teams on Anthony, which wouldn’t occur if the triangle was crisper.

“It should be difficult for teams to double someone like Melo,’’ Rosen said. “If it’s functioning and Joe Blow is designated to double Melo, Joe Blow should never know where [Joe Blow] will be.’’

On Sunday night, Anthony didn’t want to hear about the triangle when told about Fisher’s remarks.

“I don’t know where he’s coming from with that statement,’’ Anthony said. “I’d rather him get in the gym with us and show us what he’s talking about.’’

nixluva
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12/29/2015  12:21 PM
It's days before 10 days contracts and they have the trade deadline ahead. I can understand the quiet approach so far. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Before the season the media and some fans were down on this teams prospects and after the team played better than expected they were quiet! now they are starting to look for threads to pull on and start some negative crap! It's still early in the process of refining this roster. Phil didn't bring in any superstars so ups and downs were the most likely scenario IMO.

The recent struggles are very concerning but this is something Phil and everyone on the team have to figure out. Phil left an open roster spot for a reason. Clearly he anticipated needing to add some help at some point.

Malcolm
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12/29/2015  12:49 PM
Nalod wrote:Today Charley Rosen was quoted and does mention those very insights...........

Knicks coach Derek Fisher got off scot-free Monday after the NBA concluded its investigation into his love-triangle fight with Matt Barnes in Los Angeles.

Now Fisher has to do a better job in fixing the Knicks’ triangle offense, which he finally acknowledged is broken after Sunday night’s fourth straight loss.


Ah, the art of the segue in NYC tabloids . . .
Malcolm
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12/29/2015  12:57 PM
Nalod wrote:Today Charley Rosen was quoted and does mention those very insights...........

In an interview Monday with The Post, Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson’s confidant and his former Continental Basketball Association assistant coach, confirmed the Knicks’ system offense is lagging under Fisher’s watch, riddled with bad picks, a lack of proper movement, too much dribbling and not enough backdoor cuts.

I take this to be among the first authoritative commentaries on what's happening with the Knicks and the Triangle.

Does anyone disagree that this is from someone who knows Jackson, knows the Triangle, and is sympathetic to both (?)

Malcolm
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12/29/2015  12:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2015  12:59 PM
nixluva wrote:The recent struggles are very concerning but this is something Phil and everyone on the team have to figure out.

Nixluva . . . will you please comment in detail on the remarks attributed to Charley Rosen (?)
gunsnewing
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12/29/2015  1:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2015  1:02 PM
Malcolm wrote:
Nalod wrote:Today Charley Rosen was quoted and does mention those very insights...........

In an interview Monday with The Post, Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson’s confidant and his former Continental Basketball Association assistant coach, confirmed the Knicks’ system offense is lagging under Fisher’s watch, riddled with bad picks, a lack of proper movement, too much dribbling and not enough backdoor cuts.

I take this to be among the first authoritative commentaries on what's happening with the Knicks and the Triangle.

Does anyone disagree that this is from someone who knows Jackson, knows the Triangle, and is sympathetic to both (?)

Yea fisher won't make it last this week where we will lose every single game until January 13 when we play the Nets. Might win that one

Nalod
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12/29/2015  1:12 PM
Malcolm wrote:
Nalod wrote:Today Charley Rosen was quoted and does mention those very insights...........

In an interview Monday with The Post, Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson’s confidant and his former Continental Basketball Association assistant coach, confirmed the Knicks’ system offense is lagging under Fisher’s watch, riddled with bad picks, a lack of proper movement, too much dribbling and not enough backdoor cuts.

I take this to be among the first authoritative commentaries on what's happening with the Knicks and the Triangle.

Does anyone disagree that this is from someone who knows Jackson, knows the Triangle, and is sympathetic to both (?)

I agree with Rosen. I don't agree with some of the posters on the UK reactions that assume things are static and Fish is a finished product. He is not.

I'd be curious to know what Fish thinks is the cause? Players not evolved yet to instinctively play in the triangle? The great Jordan did not win a chip in his first year with Phil. I think phil coached 20 years and did not win a chip in 9 of those years. Ok, they were still some pretty good teams!!! If you read his books, he says not all teams got the triangle for many reasons. After 30 games and 9 new members I think its ACCEPTABLE to not expect much more.

Rosen is correct. Also, I agree that Fish is not yet a good x's and O's guy. He was not hired as one. Im ok with this. Mark Jax, Doc Rivers and Kidd were in the same boat. Kerr had Alvin Gentry to lean on. Fish has Rambis and Cleamons.

Malcolm
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12/29/2015  1:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2015  1:25 PM
Nalod wrote:Rosen is correct. Also, I agree that Fish is not yet a good x's and O's guy. He was not hired as one. Im ok with this. Mark Jax, Doc Rivers and Kidd were in the same boat. Kerr had Alvin Gentry to lean on. Fish has Rambis and Cleamons.

No one cares that I've been pretty "let's-wait-and-see-since-we-don't-really-know-what's-going-on" all along.

That's just part and parcel of being a Triangle admirer.

But this Charley Rosen commentary I take seriously.

I'm now open to serious criticism of Fisher and open to the possibility that he has to go.

BRIGGS
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12/29/2015  1:44 PM
I think he forgot to mention that we cant guard opposing PG's. That the other team PGs dictates opponents shots--not our D once they figured it out a bit.
Also I see a lot of open shots we point blank miss and we have no players who can drive to the basket. Other teams can adjust to us easily--they know whats coming and are ready for it. Its the players not the system.
RIP Crushalot😞
martin
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12/29/2015  2:31 PM
Malcolm wrote:
Nalod wrote:Rosen is correct. Also, I agree that Fish is not yet a good x's and O's guy. He was not hired as one. Im ok with this. Mark Jax, Doc Rivers and Kidd were in the same boat. Kerr had Alvin Gentry to lean on. Fish has Rambis and Cleamons.

No one cares that I've been pretty "let's-wait-and-see-since-we-don't-really-know-what's-going-on" all along.

That's just part and parcel of being a Triangle admirer.

But this Charley Rosen commentary I take seriously.

I'm now open to serious criticism of Fisher and open to the possibility that he has to go.

Wait, why? I don't understand you leap. Fish is definitely open to serious criticism, no doubt. Possibility he has to go?

Did Rosen set a specific timetable that every team that starts to incorporate the Triangle had to make it work by? 10 games? 20? 40?

My understanding is that the Triangle is an offensive system that also allows the defense to get back quickly because of its formation. How's the Knicks D doing all things considered?

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nixluva
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12/29/2015  3:00 PM
Here's my biggest thing about the Fish Bashers! How is pushing the ball and getting transition baskets about his ability to coach the Triangle??? We literally have the worst transition PG starting and Gallo isn't a PG and has only OK handles. When Gallo does push he can be somewhat effective but he doesn't do it enough. Afflalo isn't a threat to beat teams down the floor or constantly attack the basket and Jerian tho he has some ability to drive, can't shoot well enough to make teams pay for backing way off him so he can't drive. Jerian is the biggest disappointment IMO since he was not looking like he was gonna be this lost or shoot this bad. There was some hope that Jerian could help give the team some speed at PG.

NONE OF THESE THINGS is about the Triangle!!! This is really on Phil to fix cuz sure Fish has his problems with in game decision making and adjustments but being one of the worst Transition teams has nothing to do with Triangle and is all about the roster!!! Phil is the one that has to fix this huge flaw in the team.


NBA Team Fastbreak Points per Game

Rank Team 2015 Last 3 Last 1 Home Away 2014
1 Golden State 21.7 23.3 30.0 25.1 18.3 20.5
2 Sacramento 18.0 23.7 31.0 18.7 17.2 14.9
3 Washington 17.9 15.3 15.0 18.7 17.1 15.5
4 Okla City 16.5 22.0 22.0 16.7 16.2 17.0
5 Houston 16.2 9.7 12.0 14.8 17.7 18.8
6 Phoenix 15.5 13.0 10.0 16.8 13.8 18.2
7 Indiana 14.5 14.0 14.0 14.5 14.6 9.5
8 Boston 13.4 11.3 14.0 12.5 14.3 13.6
9 Atlanta 12.9 11.3 10.0 13.5 12.1 13.4
10 Cleveland 12.4 9.3 7.0 12.9 12.0 10.4
11 Memphis 12.4 9.7 17.0 13.6 11.2 11.6
12 Denver 12.4 9.0 11.0 13.7 11.2 15.0
13 Orlando 12.3 5.7 0.0 10.5 14.4 11.3
14 Minnesota 12.0 8.3 10.0 10.9 13.1 12.9
15 Milwaukee 11.9 14.3 10.0 13.7 10.4 14.9
16 New Orleans 11.8 5.7 8.0 13.0 11.0 10.7
17 Dallas 11.8 16.3 19.0 13.1 10.7 16.3
18 Detroit 11.5 8.0 9.0 11.9 11.2 13.4
19 LA Clippers 11.3 7.7 10.0 12.5 10.2 14.5
20 Miami 11.2 10.7 9.0 10.9 11.6 9.8
21 Toronto 11.1 13.0 21.0 11.4 10.9 11.8
22 Chicago 10.8 11.0 12.0 10.8 10.9 11.0
23 LA Lakers 10.8 12.3 17.0 9.1 11.7 12.2
24 Philadelphia 10.7 9.3 3.0 12.5 9.5 14.8
25 San Antonio 10.7 11.0 11.0 12.2 8.9 10.9
26 Brooklyn 10.5 10.7 4.0 10.9 10.1 9.2
27 Utah 10.2 6.3 11.0 10.1 10.2 12.2
28 Charlotte 10.1 19.0 23.0 11.2 8.6 9.2
29 Portland 9.9 8.7 9.0 9.6 10.1 10.1
30 New York 8.2 5.0 6.0 8.3 8.0 8.4
blkexec
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12/29/2015  3:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2015  3:30 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I think he forgot to mention that we cant guard opposing PG's. That the other team PGs dictates opponents shots--not our D once they figured it out a bit.
Also I see a lot of open shots we point blank miss and we have no players who can drive to the basket. Other teams can adjust to us easily--they know whats coming and are ready for it. Its the players not the system.

Thats a big issue right there.....We have no efficient shooters or the slashers that get to the rim are Grant and D.Will, but they are getting inconsistent minutes.

In general, our defensive players can't shoot and our offensive players can't defend.
Thats a bad combination to have on a team.

The year of linsanity, we had a starting PG who gets to the rim.....And Steve Novak a 3pt shooting specialist. JR was a knuckly head, but him and Shump can get to the rim, and JR can shoot.

The skill level on this team is worse...eventhough they are better character guys. It's like Phil built this team thinking he can add KD or some other superstar and instantly turn us into the Jordan and Pippen Bulls. The problem is Jordan and Pippen are light years ahead of Melo and KP.....And the Bulls role players would run circles around our role players.

And don't forget the Phil vs Fisher comparison as a head coach.....

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
nixluva
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12/29/2015  3:40 PM
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think he forgot to mention that we cant guard opposing PG's. That the other team PGs dictates opponents shots--not our D once they figured it out a bit.
Also I see a lot of open shots we point blank miss and we have no players who can drive to the basket. Other teams can adjust to us easily--they know whats coming and are ready for it. Its the players not the system.

Thats a big issue right there.....We have no efficient shooters or the slashers that get to the rim are Grant and D.Will, but they are getting inconsistent minutes.

In general, our defensive players can't shoot and our offensive players can't defend.
Thats a bad combination to have on a team.

The year of linsanity, we had a starting PG who gets to the rim.....And Steve Novak a 3pt shooting specialist. JR was a knuckly head, but him and Shump can get to the rim, and JR can shoot.

The skill level on this team is worse...eventhough they are better character guys. It's like Phil built this team thinking he can add KD or some other superstar and instantly turn us into the Jordan and Pippen Bulls. The problem is Jordan and Pippen are light years ahead of Melo and KP.....And the Bulls role players would run circles around our role players.

And don't forget the Phil vs Fisher comparison as a head coach.....

When building a team you have to accept that you will have some holes as you start the process of building a team. You can have money to bring in players but that doesn't mean you'll be able to get the players you want. Phil could only get the players who were willing to come for the money we had on offer. We had so many holes to fill and I think he tried to fill as many of them as he could.

SO you start the season and take a look at what works and what you need to fix. We now know clearly what we need to add in order to make the team better and it's also clear what moves didn't really work out the way they were intended. So now it's up to Phil to make the decision to stick with some players of move them.

martin
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12/29/2015  3:45 PM
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think he forgot to mention that we cant guard opposing PG's. That the other team PGs dictates opponents shots--not our D once they figured it out a bit.
Also I see a lot of open shots we point blank miss and we have no players who can drive to the basket. Other teams can adjust to us easily--they know whats coming and are ready for it. Its the players not the system.

Thats a big issue right there.....We have no efficient shooters or the slashers that get to the rim are Grant and D.Will, but they are getting inconsistent minutes.

In general, our defensive players can't shoot and our offensive players can't defend.
Thats a bad combination to have on a team.

The year of linsanity, we had a starting PG who gets to the rim.....And Steve Novak a 3pt shooting specialist. JR was a knuckly head, but him and Shump can get to the rim, and JR can shoot.

The skill level on this team is worse...eventhough they are better character guys. It's like Phil built this team thinking he can add KD or some other superstar and instantly turn us into the Jordan and Pippen Bulls. The problem is Jordan and Pippen are light years ahead of Melo and KP.....And the Bulls role players would run circles around our role players.

And don't forget the Phil vs Fisher comparison as a head coach.....

The way your formed your response sounds like to me you are expecting more after the past offseason or that there was some precedent that the Knicks should be ready for KD or Jordan or Pippen to be here next year, but I know that to not be the case. Right?

How do you get players like KOQ, DWill, Grant to get better? More minutes and just keep telling them the same things? Restrict minutes and hope they'll have enough learner-within to do things differently? All 3 of those guys have either not demonstrated previously that they can excel or are new.

If you give them long leashes, are you OK with losing more now to gain in the long run? Are you OK with the longer arc of the entire team to suffer for a few more months so that those guys can get minutes? Does that effect KP and AA and some other players who are also trying to perform and get their games better.

My feel has always been to give KP and only KP enough playing time to do his thing. He competes and when he makes mistakes he learns from them. Other young guys gotta earn it and sit until they get it right.

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blkexec
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12/29/2015  4:02 PM
martin wrote:
blkexec wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:I think he forgot to mention that we cant guard opposing PG's. That the other team PGs dictates opponents shots--not our D once they figured it out a bit.
Also I see a lot of open shots we point blank miss and we have no players who can drive to the basket. Other teams can adjust to us easily--they know whats coming and are ready for it. Its the players not the system.

Thats a big issue right there.....We have no efficient shooters or the slashers that get to the rim are Grant and D.Will, but they are getting inconsistent minutes.

In general, our defensive players can't shoot and our offensive players can't defend.
Thats a bad combination to have on a team.

The year of linsanity, we had a starting PG who gets to the rim.....And Steve Novak a 3pt shooting specialist. JR was a knuckly head, but him and Shump can get to the rim, and JR can shoot.

The skill level on this team is worse...eventhough they are better character guys. It's like Phil built this team thinking he can add KD or some other superstar and instantly turn us into the Jordan and Pippen Bulls. The problem is Jordan and Pippen are light years ahead of Melo and KP.....And the Bulls role players would run circles around our role players.

And don't forget the Phil vs Fisher comparison as a head coach.....

The way your formed your response sounds like to me you are expecting more after the past offseason or that there was some precedent that the Knicks should be ready for KD or Jordan or Pippen to be here next year, but I know that to not be the case. Right?

How do you get players like KOQ, DWill, Grant to get better? More minutes and just keep telling them the same things? Restrict minutes and hope they'll have enough learner-within to do things differently? All 3 of those guys have either not demonstrated previously that they can excel or are new.

If you give them long leashes, are you OK with losing more now to gain in the long run? Are you OK with the longer arc of the entire team to suffer for a few more months so that those guys can get minutes? Does that effect KP and AA and some other players who are also trying to perform and get their games better.

My feel has always been to give KP and only KP enough playing time to do his thing. He competes and when he makes mistakes he learns from them. Other young guys gotta earn it and sit until they get it right.

Yes, I was expecting more.....These holes arent new. Same holes different players. And Phil was around all year to understand this. It seems like he focused more on high character team players, which is fine. But these guys are effective when mixed in with high talent. It's a building process, so I understand its going to take time. But it's ok if I was expecting more than what we have.

One thing that we all are forgeting is that the east is much better than the past few years.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
knickscity
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12/29/2015  5:01 PM
martin wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Nalod wrote:Rosen is correct. Also, I agree that Fish is not yet a good x's and O's guy. He was not hired as one. Im ok with this. Mark Jax, Doc Rivers and Kidd were in the same boat. Kerr had Alvin Gentry to lean on. Fish has Rambis and Cleamons.

No one cares that I've been pretty "let's-wait-and-see-since-we-don't-really-know-what's-going-on" all along.

That's just part and parcel of being a Triangle admirer.

But this Charley Rosen commentary I take seriously.

I'm now open to serious criticism of Fisher and open to the possibility that he has to go.

Wait, why? I don't understand you leap. Fish is definitely open to serious criticism, no doubt. Possibility he has to go?

Did Rosen set a specific timetable that every team that starts to incorporate the Triangle had to make it work by? 10 games? 20? 40?

My understanding is that the Triangle is an offensive system that also allows the defense to get back quickly because of its formation. How's the Knicks D doing all things considered?

He somewhat did put a timetable on it.....

I don’t know if he’s not harping on them or they are resistant,’’ Rosen said. “It’s 32 games. They should be running it better, unless Fisher isn’t fully committed to it.
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12/29/2015  5:55 PM
Fisher's problem has been lineups. He's ok with strategy. He doesn't have a great roster to work with - a decent one. But his main issue is that he misses a lot of the lineups that someone like Phil or a smarter coach would catch on. For instance - KP/Melo as a 5/4 combo. You haven't seen him commit to that lineup, when it has shown multiple times how effective it can be.

He hasn't done bad, but he hasn't exactly impressed. He's been ok. He needs to improve. The positive is that he is 1 1/4 into his coaching career and unlike some veteran coaches who are what they are,, Fisher could improve. I've seen some improvements in year 1 to year 2. The one thing that drives me nuts is the lineups. He has to improve his sub patterns moving forward in his career.

Boy Phil Jackson and his writer are awful quiet

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