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Game thread: Knicks vs Le-Cleveland - No Melo
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HofstraBBall
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12/23/2015  9:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/23/2015  9:46 PM
blkexec wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:And the last three minutes show why you need Melo, a go to scorer on your team who is not afraid of the pressure. No matter how good or bad a game a player has, the great players want the ball. The okay players disappear and run away from it. Great all around effort besides the last 3 or 4 minutes. A game we should of won though as the Cavs shot so poorly.

The last three minutes show why you need a floor leader at the pg position......he sets the stage and he's the echo of what the coach prefers. Can't give Melo too much responsibility, because his impact tends to drop.

He can set up all he wants but you still have to have someone that is not afraid and accustomed to taking the shot. Point is, people can't complain how no one steps up and also complain when you have a guy in Melo that takes the pressure from others to do so.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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fitzfarm
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12/23/2015  9:44 PM
dk7th wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:How many games are we going to lose because of bad coaching.... Why KP gets no shots and making aa play the Melo role are you funking kidding me we should be well over 500 if we had a good coach

afflalo has no court vision and he doesn't pass the rock. how is that fisher's fault?

Why would we make AA play the Melo role vs there best defender, That's all on the coach. not getting KP the ball at all in the fourth, that's on the coach. Not drawing a successful play off the inbounds , that's on the coach... Playing Jose 18 minutes in the first half ???
nyknickzingis
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12/23/2015  9:46 PM
broadwaystorm wrote:I ask myself... why did we lose tonight? The answer is we lack good offensive players outside of Carmelo and KP. And KP needs to take over this **** already. There is no universe in which Galloway and Afflalo should be taking clutch shots [and missing] over him. And Calderon is still a stupid player. I don't care what anybody says he needs to go.

KP is a big guy. You have to get him the ball in his spots. In the 1st-3rd they were setting a lot of P/R's with him and Calderon and giving him the ball in the elbows even. In this 4th, he barely was involved. I was saying Fisher is screwing up by running the lineup he did in the 4th Q with the way they were playing. As a head coach you're supposed to see these things. You're supposed to see that the offensive execution is shifting and that they're going too much into ISO/Post up ball. He did nada.

Shame because this was a fantastic effort from them the first 3 Q's on O, and all 4 Q's on D. The 4th Q offense showed quite obviously why I've lost alot of faith in Fisher as a head coach. He doesn't recognize situations quick enough.
nyknickzingis
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12/23/2015  9:50 PM
OldFan wrote:
magicTs wrote:Terrible from Fisher. Left KP (who was having his best game given the opposition as a Knick)out way too long losing all his and the teams momentum. Fisher again came up short despite some very decent performances.

Yes KP only played 38 minutes, he should have played the whole game. Never mind that he has been playing more basketball than he's ever played in his life and he is the future of the franchise - play him until he breaks (than you can turn around and complain about how Fish overplayed him and that led to him being injured...)


No you sit him 3 minutes, then you play him at the 4th Q start. You bring in Lopez or Lou mid-way through the 4th to give KP a breather. He was having the best first 3 Q's of a game of his life. He was on fire. He was defending well. You don't sit a guy playing like a 2-way superstar for 6 minutes of game action when your offense is dry. I'd have a totally different opinion if Melo were playing. We had 1 guy who was a star tonight - KP. And Fisher completely botched the way to utilize the star to close the game. How many S/R's did the team even run with Calderon/KP in the 4th? Should have ran at least 8-10. Instead? Afflalo ISO, ISO, ISO. Silly predictable offense. Afflalo isn't a superstar, he's a role player. I have a different opinion of Melo is in the game.
HofstraBBall
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12/23/2015  10:01 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
broadwaystorm wrote:I ask myself... why did we lose tonight? The answer is we lack good offensive players outside of Carmelo and KP. And KP needs to take over this **** already. There is no universe in which Galloway and Afflalo should be taking clutch shots [and missing] over him. And Calderon is still a stupid player. I don't care what anybody says he needs to go.

KP is a big guy. You have to get him the ball in his spots. In the 1st-3rd they were setting a lot of P/R's with him and Calderon and giving him the ball in the elbows even. In this 4th, he barely was involved. I was saying Fisher is screwing up by running the lineup he did in the 4th Q with the way they were playing. As a head coach you're supposed to see these things. You're supposed to see that the offensive execution is shifting and that they're going too much into ISO/Post up ball. He did nada.

Shame because this was a fantastic effort from them the first 3 Q's on O, and all 4 Q's on D. The 4th Q offense showed quite obviously why I've lost alot of faith in Fisher as a head coach. He doesn't recognize situations quick enough.

Would have liked to see how KP handled the pressure down the stretch. He did look a bit gassed as I thought he was not moving to the ball as much as in the first half but did seem like the play was geared towards AA. Probably coaching but also as the vet he seemed to want/go to the ball a bit more aggressively. Maybe something KP will become better at as he gets over the rookie role. Great game by him. Also have to give credit to Cleveland, their defense stepped up in the last 3 as did Lebron's aggressiveness.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
dk7th
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12/23/2015  10:01 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
dk7th wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:How many games are we going to lose because of bad coaching.... Why KP gets no shots and making aa play the Melo role are you funking kidding me we should be well over 500 if we had a good coach

afflalo has no court vision and he doesn't pass the rock. how is that fisher's fault?

Why would we make AA play the Melo role vs there best defender, That's all on the coach. not getting KP the ball at all in the fourth, that's on the coach. Not drawing a successful play off the inbounds , that's on the coach... Playing Jose 18 minutes in the first half ???

fisher is "making" afflalo play the melo role? what do you mean? the inbounds play was not executed properly. it was another shyt inbounds pass by, who was it, lance thomas once again?

the only thing that you said which makes any sense is playing calderon. everything else is up to the players and their skills.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
nixluva
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12/23/2015  10:03 PM
It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!
Clean
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12/23/2015  10:05 PM
This is what I meant about the superstar mentality I thought KP was missing in that thread I made a few weeks back. KP is a little too willing to play in the background. He did the same thing during the Rockets game that Melo missed. He was the best player that game and then got nothing in the 4th/OT.
nyknickzingis
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12/23/2015  10:06 PM
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

It's the status. He's a rook. They've got vets they've assured and schemed the season towards. Even admitted as much.

I'm not just frustrated with his usage of KP, but also Derrick Williams. Derrick Williams even played fanastic D today. He was on fire. Derrick is slowly starting to show signs of being a quality 6th man. Fisher needs to recognize mismatches on his side as well. Guys like Porzingis and Willliams are mismatch hell. It's not just Melo/Afflalo.
nixluva
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12/23/2015  10:08 PM
Clean wrote:This is what I meant about the superstar mentality I thought KP was missing in that thread I made a few weeks back. KP is a little too willing to play in the background. He did the same thing during the Rockets game that Melo missed. He was the best player that game and then got nothing in the 4th/OT.

Bigs must get the ball fed to them! It's on KP's mates to look for him and get him the ball as a Primary Scorer. If they don't that's on FISH!!! You ever see the team fail to look for MELO in the 4th qtr? Teams practice getting the ball to Primary Scorers and giving them picks etc to get them open shots!
fitzfarm
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12/23/2015  10:08 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
OldFan wrote:
magicTs wrote:Terrible from Fisher. Left KP (who was having his best game given the opposition as a Knick)out way too long losing all his and the teams momentum. Fisher again came up short despite some very decent performances.

Yes KP only played 38 minutes, he should have played the whole game. Never mind that he has been playing more basketball than he's ever played in his life and he is the future of the franchise - play him until he breaks (than you can turn around and complain about how Fish overplayed him and that led to him being injured...)


No you sit him 3 minutes, then you play him at the 4th Q start. You bring in Lopez or Lou mid-way through the 4th to give KP a breather. He was having the best first 3 Q's of a game of his life. He was on fire. He was defending well. You don't sit a guy playing like a 2-way superstar for 6 minutes of game action when your offense is dry. I'd have a totally different opinion if Melo were playing. We had 1 guy who was a star tonight - KP. And Fisher completely botched the way to utilize the star to close the game. How many S/R's did the team even run with Calderon/KP in the 4th? Should have ran at least 8-10. Instead? Afflalo ISO, ISO, ISO. Silly predictable offense. Afflalo isn't a superstar, he's a role player. I have a different opinion of Melo is in the game.

Yep we need a better coach .. It's ashame because I and a lot of others had a lot of high hopes for fish.. he still hasn't corrected his rookie mistakes...this team is talented and should be over 500... Way to many losses because of amateur coaching. Clueless timeouts,clueless rotation, not aware that your making AA play the iso Melo vs there best defender? Low coaching IQ to not feed KP the ball in the fourth ? And it's one thing to give aa the ball once or off a drive but to force feed AA vs shump esp after two badly failed attemps shows me how low fish's coaching IQ really is.. KP was wide open on a lot of iso AA a good coach would say .. Hey when our hottest 3 point shooter is open from 3 get him the dam ball!!!
blkexec
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12/23/2015  10:08 PM
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

Coaches coach....leaders lead.

Melo and Afflalo are leaders....Mature veterans know to lead and demand the ball. They have that confidence. KP is a rookie....He's learning on the job. Fisher is a rookie also learning on the job. This team needs more leadership to succeed, which is why we faulter down the stretch of most games. For example, I'm sure Fisher didn't call a full timeout, just to have someone throw the ball to no one, and allow them to get an easy fast break shot. You still need talented leaders on your team to succeed.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
NYDiva
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12/23/2015  10:09 PM
I love that KP refuses to give himself the smallest of props whenever the Knicks lose, despise his having a good game. In the postgame, he pointed out that he'd missed some 2P% shots, and that maybe if he'd hit those, they'd have won.
fitzfarm
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12/23/2015  10:11 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

It's the status. He's a rook. They've got vets they've assured and schemed the season towards. Even admitted as much.

I'm not just frustrated with his usage of KP, but also Derrick Williams. Derrick Williams even played fanastic D today. He was on fire. Derrick is slowly starting to show signs of being a quality 6th man. Fisher needs to recognize mismatches on his side as well. Guys like Porzingis and Willliams are mismatch hell. It's not just Melo/Afflalo.

Yes 100% agree Williams needs a bigger role
nixluva
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12/23/2015  10:13 PM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

Coaches coach....leaders lead.

Melo and Afflalo are leaders....Mature veterans know to lead and demand the ball. They have that confidence. KP is a rookie....He's learning on the job. Fisher is a rookie also learning on the job. This team needs more leadership to succeed, which is why we faulter down the stretch of most games. For example, I'm sure Fisher didn't call a full timeout, just to have someone throw the ball to no one, and allow them to get an easy fast break shot. You still need talented leaders on your team to succeed.

I agree but I'm talking about how players are used in this offense. Primary scorers aren't floating around but rather are put in the Primary Scoring spots i.e. The Pinch Post or Side Triangle! Also running a Down Screen for a shooter or working Off a Curl. It's obvious MELO gets most of the Pinch Post Looks! They have to practice KP in the Primary Scoring role like MELO, Kobe, Shaq or MJ!
nyknickzingis
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12/23/2015  10:18 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

It's the status. He's a rook. They've got vets they've assured and schemed the season towards. Even admitted as much.

I'm not just frustrated with his usage of KP, but also Derrick Williams. Derrick Williams even played fanastic D today. He was on fire. Derrick is slowly starting to show signs of being a quality 6th man. Fisher needs to recognize mismatches on his side as well. Guys like Porzingis and Willliams are mismatch hell. It's not just Melo/Afflalo.

Yes 100% agree Williams needs a bigger role


Porzingis/Williams/Melo would be IMO one of the hardest covers in the league, front court wise. On certain nights you can't roll with that because of defense, but many nights you can. Williams D in NY has been improving. His ability to push the ball and get early offense is an asset. And the fact is, he's one of the few guys who doesn't always look to shoot. He's a guy looking to see if there's an open teammate. I feel the 3 guys with the biggest potential to grow in the next 2 years are Porzingis, Williams and Grant (in that order). But it won't happen unless Fisher puts them in more situations to succeed. I appreciate he's giving them minutes, but in the case of Williams/Porzingis they've been ready for a bigger role for ages. In Grant, it needs time and I understand because a) his jumper isn't good enough and you need that as a guard in the Tri and b) as a rookie his recognition of the Tri is still very weak.
NYDiva
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12/23/2015  10:19 PM
I know why they went to Afflalo during the Rockets game; he was red-hot and being defended by that All-NBA Defensive stopper, James Harden . But, today, with Shump bottling him up repeatedly, they should have found KP in the 4th. I was fine with the rest. With 38 minutes, he still played the most of anybody on the team. They just needed to get him the ball with the game on the line, and they didn't. They went to Afflalo, who didn't have it, had some turnovers in key moments, and the Cavs capitalized. I think they will get better down the stretch with experience, however.
markvmc
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12/23/2015  10:20 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

It's the status. He's a rook. They've got vets they've assured and schemed the season towards. Even admitted as much.

I'm not just frustrated with his usage of KP, but also Derrick Williams. Derrick Williams even played fanastic D today. He was on fire. Derrick is slowly starting to show signs of being a quality 6th man. Fisher needs to recognize mismatches on his side as well. Guys like Porzingis and Willliams are mismatch hell. It's not just Melo/Afflalo.

Williams was taken out after three terrible plays in quick succession. While he played well early, he wasn't switched on at all later in the game.
nyknickzingis
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12/23/2015  10:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/23/2015  10:28 PM
markvmc wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
nixluva wrote:It's really on Fish to have the team treat KP as a Primary Scorer! KP in the Pinch Post, Off Curls, Off Down Screens etc. It seems Fish hasn't really focused on this in practice so that it carries over into games! You don't see the Knicks forget MELO or even AFFLALO. So it seems to me Fish hasn't focused on this enough!

It's the status. He's a rook. They've got vets they've assured and schemed the season towards. Even admitted as much.

I'm not just frustrated with his usage of KP, but also Derrick Williams. Derrick Williams even played fanastic D today. He was on fire. Derrick is slowly starting to show signs of being a quality 6th man. Fisher needs to recognize mismatches on his side as well. Guys like Porzingis and Willliams are mismatch hell. It's not just Melo/Afflalo.

Williams was taken out after three terrible plays in quick succession. While he played well early, he wasn't switched on at all later in the game.


He's got a very tight leash, while others don't. Don't quite get it - because Williams PER and his play has been exactly the type of basketball you see successful NBA teams play. Multiple ballhandlers, guys able to penetrate a D and kick out, stretch bigs. Versatile. Athletic. He's able to do many things. He fits in very well with the Triangle even. His biggest weakness is the jumpshot. Can't really hit it, but still takes it. I can live with it personally. When he's out there with either Quinn or Porzingis, he's been fantastic most of the last few weeks.
y2zipper
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12/23/2015  10:43 PM
Porzingis can't quite create for himself yet, which is the step he needs to take to become an elite player. Once the Cavs turned up the D in the fourth quarter, they basically shut down what the Knicks were trying to do offensively. The Knicks manufactured offense a lot for Porzingis early and then for Afflalo after the Cavs shut down Porzingis, but once Afflalo got shut down there was nowhere else for New York to go. That's about as good as the Knicks are gonna do without Melo.

And yeah, Calderon is a terrible player.
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