holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mreinman wrote:win shares are stupid! Why can't people just stick to typewriters and FG? UGH

anyways, Harden sucks! All he can do is flop hahhahahahhahah

Does players benefit from being on better teams??.U know, they win more games??..So better players on better teams should have higher win shares???

not really. I first thought that when I used to argue about it with bonn but I saw that it was not the case.

however, playing with a guard who sets you up for efficient shots will of course help.

Efficient players have high WS's. And of course, we are talking about WS48 not WS.

Compare Jimmy Butler's(2.6 pts per) win shares(.144) in his rookie season on a 50 win team versus Kemba Walker(12 pts per) win shares(.009) on at 7 win team..Both rooks in 2011-12...

how about we compare jennifer capriati to lance armstrong? Who is a better bowler?

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

So DK

If melo passes the ball to tony douglas a 100 times and he consistently misses wide open shots, and decides to stop passing and forces shots despite being covered by both his man and dougles man that make him in efficient ?

how about he pass to prigs who was often wide open and leading the league in 3 point efficiency?? THIS HAPPENED ALL THE TIME!

melo does not care who he doesn't pass to.

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

So DK

If melo passes the ball to tony douglas a 100 times and he consistently misses wide open shots, and decides to stop passing and forces shots despite being covered by both his man and dougles man that make him in efficient ?

you're using a smart phone to type? i think i know what you're asking me.

this is the crux of the matter and my core belief: great basketball players use the regular season to work on keeping others involved from the very beginning of games, with the goal of raising their comfort level. if these others do not prove themselves worthy then it's up to the coach to get someone in there who will deliver... provided the investment of effort to work *with* others is put in. beyond that it is on the gm to find players with actual skills.

there are several level of performance in the beautiful, balletic team sport of basketball:

1) players with an "i gotta get mine" approach who are chemistry and coach killers but whose talent level is so high they continue to fool stupider gms with their fool's gold, jayvee season prowess
2) players who simply cannot see the floor and who can only play "alongside" others-- these players tend to get traded regularly
3) players who have patiently studied the habits and comfort zones of teammates and try to use the skills they themselves have to make plays, ie reaching the level of being able to play WITH others
4) a championship-level team of players who each have learned how to play with one another and are capable of acheiving greatness by playing FOR one another

this can be fleshed out some but this is a basic paradigm by which to measure a player and the team her plays on.

your question is again invalid: it is up to melo as the self acclaimed underrated superstar to improve his game in a manner where he enables others, ie the so-called "best player" should be best at making others around him better. of course he doesn't do that but the triangle will enable him to do what he himself has not been able to do.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

No what I'm saying is that I don't care about Melo's behavior..I could care less what he is doing off the court...Seem like his cash moves bother you, what happens in TMZ and social media..I care when the refs toss up the basketball to when they blow the final whistle...

and when his behavior and business decisions affect the quality of his teams/teammates and the morale of the teams/teammates, what then?

By business decisions, you mean the instances you feel he should act against his own self interest?

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

No what I'm saying is that I don't care about Melo's behavior..I could care less what he is doing off the court...Seem like his cash moves bother you, what happens in TMZ and social media..I care when the refs toss up the basketball to when they blow the final whistle...

and when his behavior and business decisions affect the quality of his teams/teammates and the morale of the teams/teammates, what then?

knicks1248 wrote:If melo passes the ball to tony douglas a 100 times and he consistently misses wide open shots, and decides to stop passing and forces shots despite being covered by both his man and dougles man that make him in efficient ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

False dilemma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A false dilemma ..... is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option. The opposite of this fallacy is argument to moderation.

The options may be a position that is between two extremes (such as when there are shades of grey) or may be completely different alternatives. Phrasing that implies two options (dilemma, dichotomy, black-and-white).....

False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice or outcome such as, in some contexts, the assertion that "if you are not with us, you are against us."

.....Additionally, it can be the result of habitual, patterned, black-and-white and/or intensely political/politicized thinking whereby a model of binary (or polar) opposites is assigned or imposed to whatever regarded object/context, almost automatically--a process that may ignore both complexity and alternatives to more extreme juxtaposed archetypes; binary opposition is explored extensively in critical theory.

Notice the pattern of the Melo Ball Lickers Club?

1) Try to change the subject. Talk about Ewing, talk about historical comparisions, talk about anything else than the fact that Melo doesn't give consistently solid effort on defense.

2) Outright attack the poster.

3) Push their agenda with random sources, but usually against no type of actual context to how the game is played/how the league
operates

4) Simply ignore what they don't want to hear

Melo puts effort into defense when he feels like it. If he wants respect, part and parcel, he needs to actually commit to playing defense on a consistent basis and on a consistent level.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

No what I'm saying is that I don't care about Melo's behavior..I could care less what he is doing off the court...Seem like his cash moves bother you, what happens in TMZ and social media..I care when the refs toss up the basketball to when they blow the final whistle...

and when his behavior and business decisions affect the quality of his teams/teammates and the morale of the teams/teammates, what then?

By business decisions, you mean the instances you feel he should act against his own self interest?

you're way too black and white as usual. there's a reason why contracts are negotiated. if you end up with a boatload of cash but a paucity of talent then that's going to be a problem. or, if you are afraid if missing that boat on a big payday and force a trade that pays you well but costs the team you are going to a bunch of human assets in exchange for your services then that too is going to be a problem.

that's why being a savvy negotiator who is finding a balance between money and work atmosphere is so important. melo lacks the savvy because he only sees dollar signs. so he is actually working against his own self interests as an nba player. the money he makes comes ata significant price-- can you understand that statement?

what i have resented about the knicks is that there was an opportunity to build something in 2010. we had ALL the leverage to keep a patient rebuild going, and then completely sabotaged that process. hre we are 4-5 years later and essentially nothing has changed... although i believe we will see signs of that progress that we could have witnessed in 2011-2012 had the melo deal not occurred as it did.

melo as a free agent in 2011-2012 would have been a much better scenario. but yeah he acted in his own perceived self-interest even though it was self-destructive.

He acted based on the labor situation at the time and Ujiri also wasn't going to not trade Melo and let him walk. The scenarios where Melo makes less, the Nuggets get nothing for Melo and the Knicks get him without giving up anything only benefit the Knicks. The world doesn't work that way.

sure it does.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

No what I'm saying is that I don't care about Melo's behavior..I could care less what he is doing off the court...Seem like his cash moves bother you, what happens in TMZ and social media..I care when the refs toss up the basketball to when they blow the final whistle...

and when his behavior and business decisions affect the quality of his teams/teammates and the morale of the teams/teammates, what then?

By business decisions, you mean the instances you feel he should act against his own self interest?

you're way too black and white as usual. there's a reason why contracts are negotiated. if you end up with a boatload of cash but a paucity of talent then that's going to be a problem. or, if you are afraid if missing that boat on a big payday and force a trade that pays you well but costs the team you are going to a bunch of human assets in exchange for your services then that too is going to be a problem.

that's why being a savvy negotiator who is finding a balance between money and work atmosphere is so important. melo lacks the savvy because he only sees dollar signs. so he is actually working against his own self interests as an nba player. the money he makes comes ata significant price-- can you understand that statement?

what i have resented about the knicks is that there was an opportunity to build something in 2010. we had ALL the leverage to keep a patient rebuild going, and then completely sabotaged that process. hre we are 4-5 years later and essentially nothing has changed... although i believe we will see signs of that progress that we could have witnessed in 2011-2012 had the melo deal not occurred as it did.

melo as a free agent in 2011-2012 would have been a much better scenario. but yeah he acted in his own perceived self-interest even though it was self-destructive.

You fail to illustrate the bad management we had in the process..U fail to see the bad management in place right now..Donnie and MDA signed Amare..The team was doomed from that single act..Melo or no Melo...Amnestying Billups was a disaster after picking up his option a few months earlier..Bringing in Chandler, another disaster..MDA was a disaster...But you continue to moan about Melo's contract and trade..Gallo turned out to be nothing...Will is just an ok player..Moz the same..They didn't help Denver do anything...

Donnie wanted DWill over Melo..We would have been so hosed with Amare, DWill and MDA...We just paid the wrong Lopez 13/14 mil per...DWill 5 mil per and Affalo 8 mil ..We resigned Admunson and Thomas and u are worried about Melo at 22/23 per...If I were Melo, I would be pissed I gave up money for this...

The false narrative is that Melo would just force shots when playing with good players which has never been shown to be true. That's why Olympic Melo is so good. I think Phil has done a decent job of addressing the roster around Melo. They should improve as we move along this season and next.

Many of the players we have now are more efficient than the guys we had last year. There were some players we have who had lower than usual production last year due to injury and hopefully being healthy they can perform much better.

2014-15 Points Per Shot Leaders - All Players                                                                           Adj
PLAYER	                TEAM	GP	PPG	FGM	FGA	FGM	FGA	FG%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	FG%
Carmelo Anthony, SF	NY	40	24.2	9.0	20.2	358	806	.444	297	627	.474	1.20	.482
Kristaps Porzingis, PF  ??
Jerian Grant, PG        ??
Robin Lopez, C	        POR	59	9.6	4.0	7.4	234	437	.535	234	436	.537	1.30	.535
Derrick Williams, PF	SAC	74	8.3	2.9	6.6	217	485	.447	168	329	.511	1.27	.498
Kyle O'Quinn, PF	ORL	51	5.8	2.3	4.7	119	242	.492	107	199	.538	1.21	.517
Arron Afflalo, SG	DEN/POR	78	13.3	4.8	11.3	375	884	.424	257	551	.466	1.17	.491
Kevin Seraphin, PF	WSH	79	6.6	2.9	5.7	231	450	.513	231	448	.516	1.16	.513
Langston Galloway, PG	NY	45	11.8	4.5	11.4	204	511	.399	142	335	.424	1.04	.460
Lou Amundson, PF	CLE/NY	53	4.9	2.1	4.8	109	255	.427	109	254	.429	1.02	.427
Lance Thomas, SF	NY/OKC	62	7.1	2.9	7.1	182	442	.412	175	420	.417	1.00	.420
Cleanthony Early, SF	NY	39	5.4	1.9	5.5	76	214	.355	54	130	.415	0.98	.407
Alexey Shved, PG	NY/PHI	42	10.3	3.2	8.0	133	335	.397	86	196	.439	1.30	.467	
Quincy Acy, SF	        NY	68	5.9	2.2	4.9	152	331	.459	134	271	.494	1.20	.486
Andrea Bargnani, C	NY	29	14.8	5.7	12.4	164	361	.454	149	320	.466	1.19	.475
Cole Aldrich, C	        NY	61	5.5	2.4	4.9	144	301	.478	144	301	.478	1.12	.478
J.R. Smith, SG	        CLE/NY	70	12.1	4.5	10.8	315	755	.417	152	329	.462	1.12	.525
Tim Hardaway Jr., SG	NY	70	11.5	4.0	10.2	279	717	.389	158	363	.435	1.12	.474
Jason Smith, PF	        NY	82	8.0	3.1	7.2	257	592	.434	242	550	.440	1.11	.447
Shane Larkin, PG	NY	76	6.2	2.5	5.7	187	432	.433	152	316	.481	1.09	.473
Jose Calderon, PG	NY	42	9.1	3.5	8.4	147	354	.415	88	212	.415	1.08	.499
Iman Shumpert, SG	CLE/NY	62	8.0	3.1	7.6	193	471	.410	126	275	.458	1.05	.481
Samuel Dalembert, C	NY	32	4.0	1.8	4.1	57	130	.438	57	130	.438	0.98	.438

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Still having problem assigning ownership...Dolan did this Dolan did that..Dolan told Phil to resign Melo..Dolan is the bad bank..Your fav GM and coach are to good bank...

the fish rots from the head down. this is an inescapable fact. the day that dolan admitted he did not know what he was doing was the dawn of hope. but please do continue to crap on jackson and fisher and lopez and o'quinn and porzingis and grant.

i am looking forward to this season.