ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

Ouch, nice post. No, BK was not, but BK wasn't making Melo's money, and BK had a different pre-Knick career than Melo did. And the same stat mongers will point out how incredibly efficient BK was. Although, I don't quite remember Louie Orr, Rory Sparrow or anyone else being made better "at all" through that efficiency.

We have two promising rooks, Affalo, Rolo and some underachieving, relatively young, league flotsam that's at least better than what we were exposed to last season, or the last couple of seasons, actually. I will wait expectantly to see if Melo can make any of these players better "enough".

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

Have you ever thought it's what has made them who they are..It's that stubbornness that drives their careers...They aren't the greatest athletes, they weren't chiseled from Mount Olympus.. I think it's great...I never wanted MJ and I don't want LeBron on my team...I wish we had more guys like Ewing on our team, we would have won...Guys like Ewing and Melo thinks they can beat MJ and LeBrons of the world...I want these guys on my team..They are the underdog and they come to fight..Melo has gotten better over the years...He is stubborn and wants to win...I can't ask for more...

I would never put Anthony and Ewing in the same category. Always felt that Ewing fell in love with the jumper a bit too much, neglected to refine his game in the post, and he was never a good passer, but he had a significant impact on both sides of the court, and played with intensity.

As for Jordan, the guy was one of the great competitors of all time-in any sport, and was able to have an impact in every aspect of the game. Not many prolific scorers have been as intense on the defensive end like he was. There was nobody more stubborn than this guy- he took it personally if you scored on him. Hated the guy, but respected him on the court. Had an ego, but it fueled his competitiveness.

Kobe is more like Jordan than James, IMO, but James has some of the same competitiveness in him.

For one reason or another, Anthony is not in the conversation with Jordan, Ewing, or Lebron as a player.

He has his moments...usually as a scorer- but his limitations as a player are significant, and his defensive deficiencies are telling.

You guys have to stop the BS about Melo's defense..You lose me bcause I think u don't know what you are talking about..He isn't the greatest defender but he plays defense..People who don't watch him play every night will say that because they read it and it's easy to get people to agree with them..But you who claim to watch the Knicks and say Melo don't play defense it's either you don't watch the games or you are just lying...Dirk and Nash are two of the consistently worst defenders every to play the game, yet they don't have that label..Melo is a much better defender than both yet he has the label...You think it's a little press running with it??...

nash and dirk were terrible defenders but they are both far more effective than melo on offense. it's about the net result of defense and offense that matters. nash was a positive-sum player even if he was a terrible defender. dirk is a positive-sum player because of how efficient he is as a scorer, and he has since added some playmaking to his game.

melo is barely a positive-sum player in the regular season and frankly come playoff time he has been zero-sum or negative-sum.

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

different era, different game. hand checking, hard fouls, no calls at the rim, traveling and palming called more frequently. also no social media. king developed his footwork under pete newell, as had jabbar and walton before him and olajuwon and shaq after. he became a great scorer, far better than melo. but he blew out his knee and was never as effective i guess. i saw an old tape of the knicks playing the bulls in jordan's rookie year. jordan was playing at a different speed even then-- i felt a twinge of sadness for bernard king when i watched that tape. it was like the game was already passing him by.

your second question is not valid-- he is being put in a position to buy into system basketball that requires him to pass the ball more, move without the ball more, and to ramp up his defense, and take fewer shots.

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

Have you ever thought it's what has made them who they are..It's that stubbornness that drives their careers...They aren't the greatest athletes, they weren't chiseled from Mount Olympus.. I think it's great...I never wanted MJ and I don't want LeBron on my team...I wish we had more guys like Ewing on our team, we would have won...Guys like Ewing and Melo thinks they can beat MJ and LeBrons of the world...I want these guys on my team..They are the underdog and they come to fight..Melo has gotten better over the years...He is stubborn and wants to win...I can't ask for more...

I would never put Anthony and Ewing in the same category. Always felt that Ewing fell in love with the jumper a bit too much, neglected to refine his game in the post, and he was never a good passer, but he had a significant impact on both sides of the court, and played with intensity.

As for Jordan, the guy was one of the great competitors of all time-in any sport, and was able to have an impact in every aspect of the game. Not many prolific scorers have been as intense on the defensive end like he was. There was nobody more stubborn than this guy- he took it personally if you scored on him. Hated the guy, but respected him on the court. Had an ego, but it fueled his competitiveness.

Kobe is more like Jordan than James, IMO, but James has some of the same competitiveness in him.

For one reason or another, Anthony is not in the conversation with Jordan, Ewing, or Lebron as a player.

He has his moments...usually as a scorer- but his limitations as a player are significant, and his defensive deficiencies are telling.

You guys have to stop the BS about Melo's defense..You lose me bcause I think u don't know what you are talking about..He isn't the greatest defender but he plays defense..People who don't watch him play every night will say that because they read it and it's easy to get people to agree with them..But you who claim to watch the Knicks and say Melo don't play defense it's either you don't watch the games or you are just lying...Dirk and Nash are two of the consistently worst defenders every to play the game, yet they don't have that label..Melo is a much better defender than both yet he has the label...You think it's a little press running with it??...

nash and dirk were terrible defenders but they are both far more effective than melo on offense. it's about the net result of defense and offense that matters. nash was a positive-sum player even if he was a terrible defender. dirk is a positive-sum player because of how efficient he is as a scorer, and he has since added some playmaking to his game.

melo is barely a positive-sum player in the regular season and frankly come playoff time he has been zero-sum or negative-sum.

Exactly. Harden for all chucking-ness and deficiency on the defensive end, made up for it with 7 assists a game, a league leading 16.4 Win Shares and a super high .265 Win Shares per 48.

Even If we completely ignore Melo defensively, he hasn't come close to these other players in offense in efficiency or in generating win shares for his team.

Win shares..hahahahahahahahaha

anyways, Harden sucks! All he can do is flop hahhahahahhahah

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

Have you ever thought it's what has made them who they are..It's that stubbornness that drives their careers...They aren't the greatest athletes, they weren't chiseled from Mount Olympus.. I think it's great...I never wanted MJ and I don't want LeBron on my team...I wish we had more guys like Ewing on our team, we would have won...Guys like Ewing and Melo thinks they can beat MJ and LeBrons of the world...I want these guys on my team..They are the underdog and they come to fight..Melo has gotten better over the years...He is stubborn and wants to win...I can't ask for more...

I would never put Anthony and Ewing in the same category. Always felt that Ewing fell in love with the jumper a bit too much, neglected to refine his game in the post, and he was never a good passer, but he had a significant impact on both sides of the court, and played with intensity.

As for Jordan, the guy was one of the great competitors of all time-in any sport, and was able to have an impact in every aspect of the game. Not many prolific scorers have been as intense on the defensive end like he was. There was nobody more stubborn than this guy- he took it personally if you scored on him. Hated the guy, but respected him on the court. Had an ego, but it fueled his competitiveness.

Kobe is more like Jordan than James, IMO, but James has some of the same competitiveness in him.

For one reason or another, Anthony is not in the conversation with Jordan, Ewing, or Lebron as a player.

He has his moments...usually as a scorer- but his limitations as a player are significant, and his defensive deficiencies are telling.

You guys have to stop the BS about Melo's defense..You lose me bcause I think u don't know what you are talking about..He isn't the greatest defender but he plays defense..People who don't watch him play every night will say that because they read it and it's easy to get people to agree with them..But you who claim to watch the Knicks and say Melo don't play defense it's either you don't watch the games or you are just lying...Dirk and Nash are two of the consistently worst defenders every to play the game, yet they don't have that label..Melo is a much better defender than both yet he has the label...You think it's a little press running with it??...

nash and dirk were terrible defenders but they are both far more effective than melo on offense. it's about the net result of defense and offense that matters. nash was a positive-sum player even if he was a terrible defender. dirk is a positive-sum player because of how efficient he is as a scorer, and he has since added some playmaking to his game.

melo is barely a positive-sum player in the regular season and frankly come playoff time he has been zero-sum or negative-sum.

Exactly. Harden for all chucking-ness and deficiency on the defensive end, made up for it with 7 assists a game, a league leading 16.4 Win Shares and a super high .265 Win Shares per 48.

Even If we completely ignore Melo defensively, he hasn't come close to these other players in offense in efficiency or in generating win shares for his team.

Win shares..hahahahahahahahaha

You're right, his Win Shares numbers are pretty funny and pathetic to look at.

Melo:

Season      Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM  BPM VORP
2003-04      19 DEN NBA  SF  82  2995 17.6 .509 .146 .358  6.8 12.1  9.4 13.8  1.7  1.0 12.7 28.5   3.7  2.4  6.1  .098   1.2 -1.2  0.1  1.6
2004-05      20 DEN NBA  SF  75  2608 16.7 .526 .128 .466  6.3 12.5  9.4 13.1  1.3  0.9 13.1 29.2   2.3  2.6  4.9  .090   0.1 -1.3 -1.2  0.5
2005-06      21 DEN NBA  SF  80  2941 22.0 .563 .097 .451  4.9 10.7  7.8 14.3  1.5  1.1 10.4 32.0   6.8  2.6  9.4  .153   3.0 -1.6  1.5  2.6
2006-07      22 DEN NBA  SF  65  2486 22.1 .552 .103 .391  6.6 11.1  8.9 19.2  1.5  0.7 12.1 33.4   5.2  2.1  7.3  .140   3.1 -1.1  2.0  2.5
2007-08      23 DEN NBA  SF  77  2806 21.1 .568 .111 .398  7.0 14.9 11.0 16.1  1.7  1.0 12.7 30.2   5.2  3.0  8.2  .140   2.2 -0.6  1.6  2.6
2008-09      24 DEN NBA  SF  66  2277 19.0 .532 .141 .388  5.6 17.0 11.5 18.1  1.7  0.8 12.3 31.5   2.4  2.6  5.0  .105   0.8 -0.5  0.3  1.3
2009-10      25 DEN NBA  SF  69  2634 22.2 .548 .125 .407  6.7 13.1  9.9 15.9  1.7  0.9 10.6 33.4   5.6  2.4  7.9  .145   2.7 -1.3  1.4  2.3
2010-11      26 TOT NBA  SF  77  2751 21.7 .557 .167 .403  5.0 18.3 11.8 14.7  1.2  1.3 10.4 32.0   5.4  2.5  7.9  .138   1.8 -1.3  0.5  1.8
2010-11      26 DEN NBA  SF  50  1774 21.2 .547 .130 .431  5.2 19.3 12.4 14.3  1.2  1.3 11.0 32.5   2.8  1.9  4.7  .127   0.9 -0.8  0.2  1.0
2010-11      26 NYK NBA  SF  27   977 22.8 .575 .233 .351  4.8 16.5 10.6 15.3  1.3  1.1  9.4 31.0   2.6  0.6  3.2  .157   3.5 -2.3  1.2  0.8
2011-12      27 NYK NBA  SF  55  1876 21.1 .525 .198 .358  5.4 15.9 10.6 21.0  1.7  1.0 10.8 31.8   3.7  2.6  6.2  .160   2.9  0.0  2.9  2.3
2012-13      28 NYK NBA  PF  67  2482 24.8 .560 .278 .344  6.1 15.9 10.8 14.1  1.1  1.1  9.3 35.6   7.5  2.0  9.5  .184   4.7 -2.3  2.4  2.8
2013-14      29 NYK NBA  PF  77  2982 24.4 .561 .253 .329  5.6 19.4 12.3 15.8  1.7  1.5  9.5 32.4   8.1  2.5 10.7  .172   4.6 -1.0  3.6  4.2
2014-15      30 NYK NBA  SF  40  1428 21.5 .531 .222 .294  5.7 16.0 10.7 18.0  1.5  1.0  8.9 32.2   2.2  0.6  2.9  .097   3.5 -2.2  1.4  1.2
Career              NBA     830 30266 21.2 .546 .162 .385  6.0 14.6 10.3 15.9  1.5  1.0 11.1 31.8  58.1 27.9 86.0  .136   2.5 -1.2  1.4 25.6
                                                                                                                                            
8 seasons       DEN NBA     564 20521 20.2 .544 .121 .410  6.2 13.5  9.9 15.5  1.6  0.9 11.8 31.2  33.9 19.5 53.5  .125   1.8 -1.1  0.8 14.3
5 seasons       NYK NBA     266  9745 23.3 .551 .243 .336  5.6 17.0 11.2 16.6  1.5  1.2  9.6 32.9  24.1  8.4 32.5  .160   4.0 -1.4  2.6 11.3

Harden

Season      Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
2009-10      20 OKC NBA  SG  76  1738 14.0 .551 .429 .415  3.2 12.7  8.1 12.3  2.4  0.9 13.4 20.4   2.0  2.5  4.5  .124   0.7  0.3 1.0  1.3
2010-11      21 OKC NBA  SG  82  2189 16.4 .598 .474 .501  2.3 11.0  6.8 12.8  2.2  0.8 11.3 19.5   5.0  2.1  7.1  .156   2.9 -0.6 2.3  2.4
2011-12      22 OKC NBA  SG  62  1946 21.1 .660 .464 .587  1.9 12.2  7.4 19.3  1.6  0.6 14.8 21.6   7.5  1.8  9.3  .230   5.6 -1.1 4.5  3.2
2012-13      23 HOU NBA  SG  78  2985 23.0 .600 .364 .592  2.4 11.9  7.2 25.7  2.4  1.0 14.9 29.0   9.8  3.0 12.8  .206   5.4  0.1 5.5  5.7
2013-14      24 HOU NBA  SG  73  2777 23.5 .618 .401 .552  2.6 10.7  6.9 27.3  2.1  0.8 15.0 27.8  10.1  2.7 12.8  .221   6.2 -0.5 5.7  5.4
2014-15      25 HOU NBA  SG  81  2981 26.7 .605 .378 .561  2.8 14.2  8.5 34.6  2.6  1.6 14.9 31.3  12.2  4.2 16.4  .265   7.4  1.0 8.4  7.8
Career              NBA     452 14616 21.5 .607 .405 .548  2.5 12.1  7.5 23.4  2.2  1.0 14.4 25.8  46.8 16.2 63.0  .207   5.0  0.0 5.0 25.8
                                                                                                                                           
3 seasons       HOU NBA     232  8743 24.4 .607 .380 .569  2.6 12.3  7.5 29.2  2.3  1.1 14.9 29.4  32.2  9.9 42.1  .231   6.3  0.2 6.6 18.9
3 seasons       OKC NBA     220  5873 17.2 .605 .457 .503  2.4 11.9  7.4 14.8  2.1  0.7 13.1 20.4  14.6  6.4 21.0  .171   3.1 -0.5 2.7  6.9

Durant

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM  BPM VORP
2007-08    19 SEA NBA  SG  80  2768 15.8 .519 .150 .328  2.8 10.9  6.9 12.0  1.4  1.9 12.9 28.1   0.4  1.9  2.3  .040  -0.6 -0.7 -1.4  0.4
2008-09    20 OKC NBA  SF  74  2885 20.8 .577 .165 .377  3.0 16.4  9.6 13.5  1.7  1.4 12.2 28.3   5.2  2.7  7.9  .132   2.2 -0.5  1.8  2.8
2009-10    21 OKC NBA  SF  82  3239 26.2 .607 .210 .504  3.8 17.9 11.0 13.5  1.8  1.9 11.7 32.0  11.1  5.0 16.1  .238   4.9  0.2  5.1  5.8
2010-11    22 OKC NBA  SF  78  3038 23.6 .589 .269 .439  2.3 17.7 10.3 13.2  1.5  1.8 10.6 30.6   8.6  3.3 12.0  .189   3.7 -0.8  2.9  3.7
2011-12    23 OKC NBA  SF  66  2546 26.2 .610 .265 .386  1.9 20.4 11.8 17.5  1.8  2.2 14.0 31.3   8.5  3.7 12.2  .230   4.7  0.5  5.2  4.6
2012-13    24 OKC NBA  SF  81  3119 28.3 .647 .233 .523  1.8 20.3 11.8 21.7  1.9  2.6 13.7 29.8  13.6  5.3 18.9  .291   6.2  1.4  7.7  7.6
2013-14    25 OKC NBA  SF  81  3122 29.8 .635 .291 .477  2.2 18.6 10.8 26.7  1.7  1.5 12.2 33.0  14.8  4.4 19.2  .295   8.4  0.4  8.8  8.5
2014-15    26 OKC NBA  SF  27   913 27.6 .633 .340 .366  1.9 18.7 10.4 22.2  1.3  2.2 12.0 29.1   3.8  1.0  4.8  .252   6.3 -0.2  6.1  1.9
Career            NBA     569 21630 24.7 .601 .233 .435  2.5 17.6 10.3 17.2  1.7  1.9 12.4 30.4  66.0 27.4 93.4  .207   4.4  0.1  4.5 35.3

Just lacking every which way you look at it.

ChuckBuck wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

EnySpree wrote:We need to appreciate what we have in Melo not trash him for what he can't do. We need what he can do to succeed right now. If they can get the team around him to function we should do that.

the more he cannot do the less he should be paid and the fewer players should have been traded for him. we did both but yeah lets "appreciate" what we have.

what have we had, again? the last 4 years have been...?

apparently your in the minority,

what the heck has any player every done for the knicks in the past 40+ years, take, take, take.

the problem has never been the individual player, it's the roster that they put around their high price players all the way back to King..Ewing may have kept us a playoff contender, but it was more heart broken then, the finger roles, the injuries, the fights, the lame ass pg's, the 2 for 18 starks, the hobbled allan houston, the camby sisters hostage situation.

The franchise hasn't gotten right, and has been hit with more bad luck, then black cats, broken mirrors, and splitting poles..smh

my issue with melo and ewing, regardless of the front office, is that both overrated themselves, asked for too much for their services, and never worked on expanding their games sufficiently. these three things are deeply intertwined but the root problem of the three remains a stubborn egocentricity.

some will say ewing was proud, a proud warrior, etc. and that's fine if you want to make him some sort of heroic person. i don't see it that way. but this ego clouded his judgement and made him less pragmatic than he could have been.

melo is just a lesser version.

Have you ever thought it's what has made them who they are..It's that stubbornness that drives their careers...They aren't the greatest athletes, they weren't chiseled from Mount Olympus.. I think it's great...I never wanted MJ and I don't want LeBron on my team...I wish we had more guys like Ewing on our team, we would have won...Guys like Ewing and Melo thinks they can beat MJ and LeBrons of the world...I want these guys on my team..They are the underdog and they come to fight..Melo has gotten better over the years...He is stubborn and wants to win...I can't ask for more...

I would never put Anthony and Ewing in the same category. Always felt that Ewing fell in love with the jumper a bit too much, neglected to refine his game in the post, and he was never a good passer, but he had a significant impact on both sides of the court, and played with intensity.

As for Jordan, the guy was one of the great competitors of all time-in any sport, and was able to have an impact in every aspect of the game. Not many prolific scorers have been as intense on the defensive end like he was. There was nobody more stubborn than this guy- he took it personally if you scored on him. Hated the guy, but respected him on the court. Had an ego, but it fueled his competitiveness.

Kobe is more like Jordan than James, IMO, but James has some of the same competitiveness in him.

For one reason or another, Anthony is not in the conversation with Jordan, Ewing, or Lebron as a player.

He has his moments...usually as a scorer- but his limitations as a player are significant, and his defensive deficiencies are telling.

You guys have to stop the BS about Melo's defense..You lose me bcause I think u don't know what you are talking about..He isn't the greatest defender but he plays defense..People who don't watch him play every night will say that because they read it and it's easy to get people to agree with them..But you who claim to watch the Knicks and say Melo don't play defense it's either you don't watch the games or you are just lying...Dirk and Nash are two of the consistently worst defenders every to play the game, yet they don't have that label..Melo is a much better defender than both yet he has the label...You think it's a little press running with it??...

nash and dirk were terrible defenders but they are both far more effective than melo on offense. it's about the net result of defense and offense that matters. nash was a positive-sum player even if he was a terrible defender. dirk is a positive-sum player because of how efficient he is as a scorer, and he has since added some playmaking to his game.

melo is barely a positive-sum player in the regular season and frankly come playoff time he has been zero-sum or negative-sum.

Exactly. Harden for all chucking-ness and deficiency on the defensive end, made up for it with 7 assists a game, a league leading 16.4 Win Shares and a super high .265 Win Shares per 48.

Even If we completely ignore Melo defensively, he hasn't come close to these other players in offense in efficiency or in generating win shares for his team.

Win shares..hahahahahahahahaha

You're right, his Win Shares numbers are pretty funny and pathetic to look at.

Melo:

Season      Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM  BPM VORP
2003-04      19 DEN NBA  SF  82  2995 17.6 .509 .146 .358  6.8 12.1  9.4 13.8  1.7  1.0 12.7 28.5   3.7  2.4  6.1  .098   1.2 -1.2  0.1  1.6
2004-05      20 DEN NBA  SF  75  2608 16.7 .526 .128 .466  6.3 12.5  9.4 13.1  1.3  0.9 13.1 29.2   2.3  2.6  4.9  .090   0.1 -1.3 -1.2  0.5
2005-06      21 DEN NBA  SF  80  2941 22.0 .563 .097 .451  4.9 10.7  7.8 14.3  1.5  1.1 10.4 32.0   6.8  2.6  9.4  .153   3.0 -1.6  1.5  2.6
2006-07      22 DEN NBA  SF  65  2486 22.1 .552 .103 .391  6.6 11.1  8.9 19.2  1.5  0.7 12.1 33.4   5.2  2.1  7.3  .140   3.1 -1.1  2.0  2.5
2007-08      23 DEN NBA  SF  77  2806 21.1 .568 .111 .398  7.0 14.9 11.0 16.1  1.7  1.0 12.7 30.2   5.2  3.0  8.2  .140   2.2 -0.6  1.6  2.6
2008-09      24 DEN NBA  SF  66  2277 19.0 .532 .141 .388  5.6 17.0 11.5 18.1  1.7  0.8 12.3 31.5   2.4  2.6  5.0  .105   0.8 -0.5  0.3  1.3
2009-10      25 DEN NBA  SF  69  2634 22.2 .548 .125 .407  6.7 13.1  9.9 15.9  1.7  0.9 10.6 33.4   5.6  2.4  7.9  .145   2.7 -1.3  1.4  2.3
2010-11      26 TOT NBA  SF  77  2751 21.7 .557 .167 .403  5.0 18.3 11.8 14.7  1.2  1.3 10.4 32.0   5.4  2.5  7.9  .138   1.8 -1.3  0.5  1.8
2010-11      26 DEN NBA  SF  50  1774 21.2 .547 .130 .431  5.2 19.3 12.4 14.3  1.2  1.3 11.0 32.5   2.8  1.9  4.7  .127   0.9 -0.8  0.2  1.0
2010-11      26 NYK NBA  SF  27   977 22.8 .575 .233 .351  4.8 16.5 10.6 15.3  1.3  1.1  9.4 31.0   2.6  0.6  3.2  .157   3.5 -2.3  1.2  0.8
2011-12      27 NYK NBA  SF  55  1876 21.1 .525 .198 .358  5.4 15.9 10.6 21.0  1.7  1.0 10.8 31.8   3.7  2.6  6.2  .160   2.9  0.0  2.9  2.3
2012-13      28 NYK NBA  PF  67  2482 24.8 .560 .278 .344  6.1 15.9 10.8 14.1  1.1  1.1  9.3 35.6   7.5  2.0  9.5  .184   4.7 -2.3  2.4  2.8
2013-14      29 NYK NBA  PF  77  2982 24.4 .561 .253 .329  5.6 19.4 12.3 15.8  1.7  1.5  9.5 32.4   8.1  2.5 10.7  .172   4.6 -1.0  3.6  4.2
2014-15      30 NYK NBA  SF  40  1428 21.5 .531 .222 .294  5.7 16.0 10.7 18.0  1.5  1.0  8.9 32.2   2.2  0.6  2.9  .097   3.5 -2.2  1.4  1.2
Career              NBA     830 30266 21.2 .546 .162 .385  6.0 14.6 10.3 15.9  1.5  1.0 11.1 31.8  58.1 27.9 86.0  .136   2.5 -1.2  1.4 25.6
                                                                                                                                            
8 seasons       DEN NBA     564 20521 20.2 .544 .121 .410  6.2 13.5  9.9 15.5  1.6  0.9 11.8 31.2  33.9 19.5 53.5  .125   1.8 -1.1  0.8 14.3
5 seasons       NYK NBA     266  9745 23.3 .551 .243 .336  5.6 17.0 11.2 16.6  1.5  1.2  9.6 32.9  24.1  8.4 32.5  .160   4.0 -1.4  2.6 11.3

Harden

Season      Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
2009-10      20 OKC NBA  SG  76  1738 14.0 .551 .429 .415  3.2 12.7  8.1 12.3  2.4  0.9 13.4 20.4   2.0  2.5  4.5  .124   0.7  0.3 1.0  1.3
2010-11      21 OKC NBA  SG  82  2189 16.4 .598 .474 .501  2.3 11.0  6.8 12.8  2.2  0.8 11.3 19.5   5.0  2.1  7.1  .156   2.9 -0.6 2.3  2.4
2011-12      22 OKC NBA  SG  62  1946 21.1 .660 .464 .587  1.9 12.2  7.4 19.3  1.6  0.6 14.8 21.6   7.5  1.8  9.3  .230   5.6 -1.1 4.5  3.2
2012-13      23 HOU NBA  SG  78  2985 23.0 .600 .364 .592  2.4 11.9  7.2 25.7  2.4  1.0 14.9 29.0   9.8  3.0 12.8  .206   5.4  0.1 5.5  5.7
2013-14      24 HOU NBA  SG  73  2777 23.5 .618 .401 .552  2.6 10.7  6.9 27.3  2.1  0.8 15.0 27.8  10.1  2.7 12.8  .221   6.2 -0.5 5.7  5.4
2014-15      25 HOU NBA  SG  81  2981 26.7 .605 .378 .561  2.8 14.2  8.5 34.6  2.6  1.6 14.9 31.3  12.2  4.2 16.4  .265   7.4  1.0 8.4  7.8
Career              NBA     452 14616 21.5 .607 .405 .548  2.5 12.1  7.5 23.4  2.2  1.0 14.4 25.8  46.8 16.2 63.0  .207   5.0  0.0 5.0 25.8
                                                                                                                                           
3 seasons       HOU NBA     232  8743 24.4 .607 .380 .569  2.6 12.3  7.5 29.2  2.3  1.1 14.9 29.4  32.2  9.9 42.1  .231   6.3  0.2 6.6 18.9
3 seasons       OKC NBA     220  5873 17.2 .605 .457 .503  2.4 11.9  7.4 14.8  2.1  0.7 13.1 20.4  14.6  6.4 21.0  .171   3.1 -0.5 2.7  6.9

Durant

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G    MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS  DWS   WS WS/48  OBPM DBPM  BPM VORP
2007-08    19 SEA NBA  SG  80  2768 15.8 .519 .150 .328  2.8 10.9  6.9 12.0  1.4  1.9 12.9 28.1   0.4  1.9  2.3  .040  -0.6 -0.7 -1.4  0.4
2008-09    20 OKC NBA  SF  74  2885 20.8 .577 .165 .377  3.0 16.4  9.6 13.5  1.7  1.4 12.2 28.3   5.2  2.7  7.9  .132   2.2 -0.5  1.8  2.8
2009-10    21 OKC NBA  SF  82  3239 26.2 .607 .210 .504  3.8 17.9 11.0 13.5  1.8  1.9 11.7 32.0  11.1  5.0 16.1  .238   4.9  0.2  5.1  5.8
2010-11    22 OKC NBA  SF  78  3038 23.6 .589 .269 .439  2.3 17.7 10.3 13.2  1.5  1.8 10.6 30.6   8.6  3.3 12.0  .189   3.7 -0.8  2.9  3.7
2011-12    23 OKC NBA  SF  66  2546 26.2 .610 .265 .386  1.9 20.4 11.8 17.5  1.8  2.2 14.0 31.3   8.5  3.7 12.2  .230   4.7  0.5  5.2  4.6
2012-13    24 OKC NBA  SF  81  3119 28.3 .647 .233 .523  1.8 20.3 11.8 21.7  1.9  2.6 13.7 29.8  13.6  5.3 18.9  .291   6.2  1.4  7.7  7.6
2013-14    25 OKC NBA  SF  81  3122 29.8 .635 .291 .477  2.2 18.6 10.8 26.7  1.7  1.5 12.2 33.0  14.8  4.4 19.2  .295   8.4  0.4  8.8  8.5
2014-15    26 OKC NBA  SF  27   913 27.6 .633 .340 .366  1.9 18.7 10.4 22.2  1.3  2.2 12.0 29.1   3.8  1.0  4.8  .252   6.3 -0.2  6.1  1.9
Career            NBA     569 21630 24.7 .601 .233 .435  2.5 17.6 10.3 17.2  1.7  1.9 12.4 30.4  66.0 27.4 93.4  .207   4.4  0.1  4.5 35.3

Just lacking every which way you look at it.

Melo's WS's have been pretty solid as a knick.

when he can get his TS closer to 58 and have a better assist to turnover ratio then his WS48 will be elite.

184 is still an excellent wS48. 14th in the league is right about where he ranked as a player.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Question for some of the more experienced Knicks fans: was Bernard King subjected to the same type of criticism as Melo back in his Knicks playing days?

As for Melo accepting a lesser role on the offense, who is it that the Knicks have on their roster now that is bursting with offensive prowess that Melo is holding back?

It's wasn't the same..It was a different era..The big money Melo makes is an issue...24/7 news cycle..The internet..Anyone is writing a column these days...And I mean the dude down the block or in a dorm room or his mother's basement...The hip hop era...Allen Iverson..Corn rolls and tattoos...There hate is real out there but there are some that has legit basketball questions..Just that today they mask their issues and says it's about basketball and the game...It's deeper...Guys like Melo don't carry themselves in a manner that apologies for their wealth or status..It rubs some the wrong way...

you started off with two truths and then went into justifying melo's behavior. the dude has been an in love with himself greedy infantile douche.

You are justifying my point by mentioning "Melo's behavior"...

okay.. so u characterize his behavior a certain way and say it is perfectly good and acceptable behavior. meanwhile i characterize his behavior a certain way, differently from u, and say it is not perfectly good and acceptable.

u seem to be headed down a particular primrose path with your post..

No what I'm saying is that I don't care about Melo's behavior..I could care less what he is doing off the court...Seem like his cash moves bother you, what happens in TMZ and social media..I care when the refs toss up the basketball to when they blow the final whistle...