Like most teams there was a top tier that carried most of the action. Melo, Felton, Tyson and JR in particular. Also some key role players like Novak and Copeland. In taking a look at that team one thing stood out and that was the PF position. The fact that we didn't have good health at that position really transformed how that team played.

Looking at that roster and this one the one area that this current team could really benefit from is that it's got some real depth at PF. Younger players who hopefully can stay on the floor where the PF's on the 54 win team all broke down.

PLAYER	                GP	GS	MIN	PPG	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TPG	FPG	A/TO	PER
Carmelo Anthony,   SF	67	67	37.0	28.7	6.9	2.6	0.78	0.48	2.6	3.1	1.0	24.8
Raymond Felton,    PG	68	68	34.0	13.9	2.9	5.5	1.38	0.21	2.3	1.9	2.4	15.2
J.R. Smith,        SG	80	0	33.5	18.1	5.3	2.7	1.25	0.30	1.7	2.8	1.6	17.7
Tyson Chandler,    C	66	66	32.8	10.4	10.7	0.9	0.64	1.14	1.3	2.8	0.7	18.9
Jason Kidd,        PG   76	48	26.9	6.0	4.3	3.3	1.64	0.33	1.0	1.6	3.3	13.5
Iman Shumpert,     SG	45	45	22.1	6.8	3.0	1.7	0.96	0.16	0.8	2.2	2.0	11.7
Steve Novak,       SF	81	1	20.3	6.6	1.9	0.4	0.35	0.10	0.1	1.2	2.9	11.3
Chris Copeland,    SF	56	13	15.4	8.7	2.1	0.5	0.29	0.21	0.9	1.9	0.5	16.9
Pablo Prigioni,    PG	78	18	16.2	3.5	1.8	3.0	0.88	0.03	1.1	1.6	2.7	13.0
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF	29	0	23.5	14.2	5.0	0.4	0.34	0.72	1.7	3.1	0.3	22.2
Rasheed Wallace,   PF	21	0	14.1	7.0	4.0	0.3	0.62	0.71	0.5	1.9	0.6	16.7
Kenyon Martin,     PF	18	11	23.9	7.2	5.3	0.4	0.89	0.94	0.9	3.6	0.5	13.9
Kurt Thomas,       PF	39	17	10.1	2.5	2.3	0.5	0.26	0.41	0.2	1.3	2.6	13.3
Ronnie Brewer,     SF†	46	34	15.5	3.6	2.2	0.9	0.74	0.13	0.3	0.6	2.9	10.2
Marcus Camby,      C	24	4	10.4	1.8	3.3	0.6	0.29	0.58	0.6	1.2	0.9	8.6
James White,       SG	57	16	7.6	2.2	0.8	0.5	0.23	0.07	0.3	0.8	1.7	9.1

This is a younger team obviously. The names aren't sexy but this current roster actually could provide some solid production. While this team won't hoist 3's at the rate that the 54 win team did, They have a better set of players who can and will attack the rim. It's a nice balance offensively. Some Shooters, Posting, Penetrators, Slashers... It should be a much better offensive team than last year, even if it's not quite as dynamic as the 54 win team was to start that season.

There's some solid production and defense in this current roster that could make this team perform better than expected. The 2015-16 Knicks have a lot of length, rim protection and just enough athletic ability. If this team can defend at a much higher level this year, it could really push this team into the playoff picture. This roster has enough defensive minded players to get it done IMO.

Lead Guard	    Scoring Guard	     Small Forward	Power Forward		Center
Jerian Grant	    Arron Afflalo	     Carmelo Anthony	Kristaps Porzingis 	Robin Lopez
Jose Calderon	    Sasha Vujacic            Cleanthony Early	Derrick Williams	Kyle O’Quinn
Langston Galloway   Thanasis Antetokounmpo   Lance Thomas	Lou Amundson		Kevin Seraphin

So IMO the 2015-16 Knicks could be a solid defensive team with just enough offense to win and compete for a playoff spot. The offense may not approach that of the 54 win team but it shouldn't experience the same drops in production of that team either. The 2015-16 Knicks should be a more consistent offensive team. Less spectacular but probably more reliable over the course of the season.

nixluva wrote:We hear a lot of talk about the 54 win team. It's often brought up but IMO often misunderstood. I felt it would be helpful to take a look at that roster and try to compare the components of that team to what we have now. This isn't about saying this team will win 54 games.

Like most teams there was a top tier that carried most of the action. Melo, Felton, Tyson and JR in particular. Also some key role players like Novak and Copeland. In taking a look at that team one thing stood out and that was the PF position. The fact that we didn't have good health at that position really transformed how that team played.

Looking at that roster and this one the one area that this current team could really benefit from is that it's got some real depth at PF. Younger players who hopefully can stay on the floor where the PF's on the 54 win team all broke down.

PLAYER	                GP	GS	MIN	PPG	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TPG	FPG	A/TO	PER
Carmelo Anthony,   SF	67	67	37.0	28.7	6.9	2.6	0.78	0.48	2.6	3.1	1.0	24.8
Raymond Felton,    PG	68	68	34.0	13.9	2.9	5.5	1.38	0.21	2.3	1.9	2.4	15.2
J.R. Smith,        SG	80	0	33.5	18.1	5.3	2.7	1.25	0.30	1.7	2.8	1.6	17.7
Tyson Chandler,    C	66	66	32.8	10.4	10.7	0.9	0.64	1.14	1.3	2.8	0.7	18.9
Jason Kidd,        PG   76	48	26.9	6.0	4.3	3.3	1.64	0.33	1.0	1.6	3.3	13.5
Iman Shumpert,     SG	45	45	22.1	6.8	3.0	1.7	0.96	0.16	0.8	2.2	2.0	11.7
Steve Novak,       SF	81	1	20.3	6.6	1.9	0.4	0.35	0.10	0.1	1.2	2.9	11.3
Chris Copeland,    SF	56	13	15.4	8.7	2.1	0.5	0.29	0.21	0.9	1.9	0.5	16.9
Pablo Prigioni,    PG	78	18	16.2	3.5	1.8	3.0	0.88	0.03	1.1	1.6	2.7	13.0
Amar'e Stoudemire, PF	29	0	23.5	14.2	5.0	0.4	0.34	0.72	1.7	3.1	0.3	22.2
Rasheed Wallace,   PF	21	0	14.1	7.0	4.0	0.3	0.62	0.71	0.5	1.9	0.6	16.7
Kenyon Martin,     PF	18	11	23.9	7.2	5.3	0.4	0.89	0.94	0.9	3.6	0.5	13.9
Kurt Thomas,       PF	39	17	10.1	2.5	2.3	0.5	0.26	0.41	0.2	1.3	2.6	13.3
Ronnie Brewer,     SF†	46	34	15.5	3.6	2.2	0.9	0.74	0.13	0.3	0.6	2.9	10.2
Marcus Camby,      C	24	4	10.4	1.8	3.3	0.6	0.29	0.58	0.6	1.2	0.9	8.6
James White,       SG	57	16	7.6	2.2	0.8	0.5	0.23	0.07	0.3	0.8	1.7	9.1

This is a younger team obviously. The names aren't sexy but this current roster actually could provide some solid production. While this team won't hoist 3's at the rate that the 54 win team did, They have a better set of players who can and will attack the rim. It's a nice balance offensively. Some Shooters, Posting, Penetrators, Slashers... It should be a much better offensive team than last year, even if it's not quite as dynamic as the 54 win team was to start that season.

There's some solid production and defense in this current roster that could make this team perform better than expected. The 2015-16 Knicks have a lot of length, rim protection and just enough athletic ability. If this team can defend at a much higher level this year, it could really push this team into the playoff picture. This roster has enough defensive minded players to get it done IMO.

Lead Guard	    Scoring Guard	     Small Forward	Power Forward		Center
Jerian Grant	    Arron Afflalo	     Carmelo Anthony	Kristaps Porzingis 	Robin Lopez
Jose Calderon	    Sasha Vujacic            Cleanthony Early	Derrick Williams	Kyle O’Quinn
Langston Galloway   Thanasis Antetokounmpo   Lance Thomas	Lou Amundson		Kevin Seraphin

So IMO the 2015-16 Knicks could be a solid defensive team with just enough offense to win and compete for a playoff spot. The offense may not approach that of the 54 win team but it shouldn't experience the same drops in production of that team either. The 2015-16 Knicks should be a more consistent offensive team. Less spectacular but probably more reliable over the course of the season.

the stats mean nothing, what matter was this

Leadership- Kurt, rasheed, kidd, kmart
Contracts- nobody (except jr)was on a one yr contract
Roles- every player knew their role
playmakers - With jr playing at a consistent level, kidd making the right play in the clutch, and felton playing solid along with priggs

woodson didn't even have to coach much

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:With sasha as a back up 2 guard it won't.
I think it is up to Melo whether or not we get to be a 500 team.

It's never really about one player. If the rest of the team is functioning at a higher level this team will be in position to win games. This team is basically a solid middle of the pack team when you really look at it. There's some upside depending on how well some of the players are able to reach their potential.

This is a case where I think Knicks fans need to step back and just look at this team and you can see that there's enough there to make this a team that can compete for a playoff spot. You had to bring up Sasha as a knock against the team which further proves my point. If he's the biggest issue we have to worry about I think we're in good shape.

I think we could see this year's team have production something like this.

54 Win Team ---      2015-16 Knicks
Melo       28.7 ppg  Melo    25.0 ppg
JR Smith   18.1 ppg  Afflalo 17.0 ppg
Felton     13.9 ppg  Jerian  10.0 ppg
Copeland    8.7 ppg  KP6     13.0 ppg
Tyson      10.4 ppg  RoLo    12.0 ppg
Kidd        6.0 ppg  Jose     8.0 ppg
Shump       6.8 ppg  Gallo    8.0 ppg 
Novak       6.6 ppg  DWill   12.0 ppg

You think DWill is going to average 12 ppg?

Looks like a younger version of the 54 win team, without the veteran leadership and floor general to close out games. Most of the vets from the 54 win team, actually played in crunch time. The vets from the current team will be on the bench. Thats a huge difference between the two teams. This years team is really relying on the rookies and young guys to develop into leaders over night.

There's actually a lot of untapped talent in DWill. I think people are really underestimating what he can do. Once George Karl took over the Kings, DWill started to show improvement.

 
Under George Karl
          MIN	FGM-FGA	   FG%	  3PM-3PA   3P%	   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB	AST  BLK  STL  PF   TO	 PTS
April	  28.0	5.3-11.3   .471	  1.0-3.4   .290   3.1-4.8   .651  3.9	1.3  0.1  1.0  1.1  1.0	 14.8
March	  21.9	3.2-7.3	   .444	  1.1-3.0   .373   2.2-2.9   .755  2.3	0.8  0.1  0.3  0.8  1.0	 9.8
Before Karl
          MIN	FGM-FGA	   FG%	  3PM-3PA   3P%	   FTM-FTA   FT%   REB	AST  BLK  STL  PF   TO	 PTS
February  19.9	2.3-5.3	  .429	  0.6-1.8   .357   1.1-1.5   .750  3.1	0.8  0.0  0.5  1.5  0.6	 6.3
January	  21.8	2.8-6.3	  .451	  0.4-1.8   .208   1.6-2.4   .677  3.8	0.9  0.1  0.5  0.7  0.5	 7.7
December  17.4	2.9-6.3	  .453	  0.5-1.7   .308   1.7-2.5   .658  2.3	0.2  0.0  0.5  0.7  0.7	 7.9
November  11.1	1.4-3.3	  .417	  0.3-0.7   .375   1.3-2.1   .609  1.6	0.4  0.1  0.1  0.9  0.7	 4.3

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

player coach

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:when you have a playmaker and orchestrator like kidd on the floor it helps a ton. woodson's mistake was not recognizing prigioni's prowess as a playmaker and orchestrator early on to help keep kidd fresh. that's one of things that makes woodson suck as a head coach.

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

100% agree, i dont think they will avg a 100 ppg, plus all of phils teams were top 10 defensively.

Kidd was no longer a playmaker like that though. He was a shooting guard. He no longer was able to penitrate at the level he used to and he was no longer able to keep up with quicker guards like he used to. His size and strength allowed him to be a good SG though. His IQ on offense and defense did allow him to make defensive plays and make that extra pass and heady plays.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

dk7th wrote:when you have a playmaker and orchestrator like kidd on the floor it helps a ton. woodson's mistake was not recognizing prigioni's prowess as a playmaker and orchestrator early on to help keep kidd fresh. that's one of things that makes woodson suck as a head coach.

anyway guess what, the triangle is the paradigm or blueprint such that the orchestrating happens among all five players instead of being dependent on one player.

the issue is whether this year the knicks will establish themselves as a top-ten defensive team. that's the only way they have a chance of reaching 38 wins or more.

100% agree, i dont think they will avg a 100 ppg, plus all of phils teams were top 10 defensively.

Kidd was no longer a playmaker like that though. He was a shooting guard. He no longer was able to penitrate at the level he used to and he was no longer able to keep up with quicker guards like he used to. His size and strength allowed him to be a good SG though. His IQ on offense and defense did allow him to make defensive plays and make that extra pass and heady plays.

Kidd's value was making the extra pass...I think that helped the team tremendously...The biggest asset for that team was Felton being able to get into the lane...That defined the offense...

get into the lane and do what? throw up a brick? make a desperation pass after leaving his feet leading to a difficult catch and shoot?

I'm not sure if u just like being an antagonist or you are just so clueless when it comes to the game..