I used to be very much in favor of his on field achievement being the qualifier for his inclusion to the HOF but I had a thought that still troubles me:

He was never accused of betting against the Reds. That itself seems like an admirable trait but unless he bet on all 162 games his NOT placing a bet on some games would have indicated his belief the reds would not compete as well that nite and thus was sending a signal. That alone is a very damaging activity and to some extent he then did not advocate for his team and in a way "Bet against" them by not betting for them.

Pete will get into the HOF when he passses from this earth.

The seaon A-Rod is having, and I assume its clean from PED's, and if he can hold up thru the season might be a very big selling point for his HOF inclusion. One of these days one of the Roid guys will get in. Either Piazza, Bonds, or Clemmons will break thru. One thing A-rod is showing is he had the talent when tested to put up big numbers and at age 40. That will go a long way. MAybe not first ballet and it might take some time, but some of these roid guys I do think had big numbers and were HOF bound before they became middle aged roid gods and did insane things in their late 30's.

At the same time one should question Nolan Ryans career.

Loving the Yankees of late and while not thinking this is a world series contending club its fun to see them in first place during this "rebuilding" year. A-rod is carrying them. Was never a big fan of this guy but im glad he has numbers to speak for him.

holfresh wrote:Pedro recently said 60% of the league was using steroids when he was playing...Arod is putting up numbers that only Barry and Hank put up at that age..I wouldn't put it past Arod to still be using if he got a hold of a new synthetic agent that cannot be detected...I just don't trust that Arod is having this miraculous rejuvenation at age 40..He couldn't get to that high inside fast balls and the low inside fast ball two years ago...Now he has full plate coverage??..Oh well, maybe it was about his bad hips..Arod is just dodgy and I have a hard time trusting him but hey, the Yankees aren't hard to watch all of a sudden...

Agree 100%...I have to think that he's using a state of the art PED that they are not able to detect at this time.

About a month ago someone on one of the sports radio shows said that 50% of the Yankee reporters in the press box thought he was still juicing, and that was before his recent surge.

Most Yankee fans don't care as long as he's hitting HRs, though, just like they didn't care when McGuire, Bonds, Sosa, and others were doing the same thing a few years ago.

WaltLongmire wrote:

holfresh wrote:Pedro recently said 60% of the league was using steroids when he was playing...Arod is putting up numbers that only Barry and Hank put up at that age..I wouldn't put it past Arod to still be using if he got a hold of a new synthetic agent that cannot be detected...I just don't trust that Arod is having this miraculous rejuvenation at age 40..He couldn't get to that high inside fast balls and the low inside fast ball two years ago...Now he has full plate coverage??..Oh well, maybe it was about his bad hips..Arod is just dodgy and I have a hard time trusting him but hey, the Yankees aren't hard to watch all of a sudden...

Heard someone say that ARod has never tested positive for PEDs, yet he admitted to it twice.

Agree 100%...I have to think that he's using a state of the art PED that they are not able to detect at this time.

About a month ago someone on one of the sports radio shows said that 50% of the Yankee reporters in the press box thought he was still juicing, and that was before his recent surge.

Most Yankee fans don't care as long as he's hitting HRs, though, just like they didn't care when McGuire, Bonds, Sosa, and others were doing the same thing a few years ago.

If he is using again..The pair on that guy..Last year I saw him in the lobby of my job talking to his lawyers when he met with MLB..He looked good..Smaller than I thought he would look in person and a suit tho...

WaltLongmire wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:UNless you know something we don't, Piazza has never failed a Steroid test or admitted to it. He is the best hitting C of all time and deserves to be in the HOF by now.

I'm a big Mets fan, but I wouldn't say its impossible that Piazza was juicing- people just have to accept the fact that many of our favorite players might have been doing it.

I can't feel the same way about the game anymore. So much of the game is tied to statistics.

I still consider Aaron to be the HR leader, and believe there should be asterisks attached to any yearly numbers above 61 and any totals above Aaron's 755, as well as on the totals of anyone known to have used PEDs.

Did you believe the rumors of Piazza and Sam Champion??

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:UNless you know something we don't, Piazza has never failed a Steroid test or admitted to it. He is the best hitting C of all time and deserves to be in the HOF by now.

I'm a big Mets fan, but I wouldn't say its impossible that Piazza was juicing- people just have to accept the fact that many of our favorite players might have been doing it.

I can't feel the same way about the game anymore. So much of the game is tied to statistics.

I still consider Aaron to be the HR leader, and believe there should be asterisks attached to any yearly numbers above 61 and any totals above Aaron's 755, as well as on the totals of anyone known to have used PEDs.

Did you believe the rumors of Piazza and Sam Champion??

Champion came out in 2012, well after the supposed Piazza rumor, which I find interesting.

Had a lesbian friend who swore this story was true.

Maybe she just wanted a baseball player on her "team."

Does not matter much these days, anyway.

Nalod wrote:Im pretty black and white on the issue. You either are and get caught or innocent.

A-rod sat for damn near 2 years and had some bad hip problems which is why he might have had problem turn on inside balls.
Does "Juicing" actually make you a better hitter? Or the body recover faster and heal? Does juice make you faster? See the ball better? Nope.

For all of Cleammons problems his insane work acumen seems to be forgotten. The juice made those work outs more effective as he could heal but these guys are still putting in the work.

If A-rod is within the current rules, then he is legal. We cant' discriminate on speculation. Arod was a great ball player before roids, as was Bonds and Cleammons. Nobody suspected until they became gods after age 35.

As for Piazza there is not reason for his HOF exclusion other than speculation.

MY take is it was very widespread and we can't be too particular. McGuire and Sosa are very interesting topics themselves. These guys really became obvious.

Scott Brocious? Chilli Davis? Paul O'neal?

That's the American way..Keep pressing the moral envelope until you get caught or some one changes or creates a law..It's what gives Kraft and Brady all that chutzpah..

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Im pretty black and white on the issue. You either are and get caught or innocent.

A-rod sat for damn near 2 years and had some bad hip problems which is why he might have had problem turn on inside balls.
Does "Juicing" actually make you a better hitter? Or the body recover faster and heal? Does juice make you faster? See the ball better? Nope.

For all of Cleammons problems his insane work acumen seems to be forgotten. The juice made those work outs more effective as he could heal but these guys are still putting in the work.

If A-rod is within the current rules, then he is legal. We cant' discriminate on speculation. Arod was a great ball player before roids, as was Bonds and Cleammons. Nobody suspected until they became gods after age 35.

As for Piazza there is not reason for his HOF exclusion other than speculation.

MY take is it was very widespread and we can't be too particular. McGuire and Sosa are very interesting topics themselves. These guys really became obvious.

Scott Brocious? Chilli Davis? Paul O'neal?

That's the American way..Keep pressing the moral envelope until you get caught or some one changes or creates a law..It's what gives Kraft and Brady all that chutzpah..

We talking HOF voting and the issue relating to HOF during a time there was no testing., not moral compass for the country.
Aren't you just being a bit pissy one today?

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:Im pretty black and white on the issue. You either are and get caught or innocent.

A-rod sat for damn near 2 years and had some bad hip problems which is why he might have had problem turn on inside balls.
Does "Juicing" actually make you a better hitter? Or the body recover faster and heal? Does juice make you faster? See the ball better? Nope.

For all of Cleammons problems his insane work acumen seems to be forgotten. The juice made those work outs more effective as he could heal but these guys are still putting in the work.

If A-rod is within the current rules, then he is legal. We cant' discriminate on speculation. Arod was a great ball player before roids, as was Bonds and Cleammons. Nobody suspected until they became gods after age 35.

As for Piazza there is not reason for his HOF exclusion other than speculation.

MY take is it was very widespread and we can't be too particular. McGuire and Sosa are very interesting topics themselves. These guys really became obvious.

Scott Brocious? Chilli Davis? Paul O'neal?

That's the American way..Keep pressing the moral envelope until you get caught or some one changes or creates a law..It's what gives Kraft and Brady all that chutzpah..

We talking HOF voting and the issue relating to HOF during a time there was no testing., not moral compass for the country.
Aren't you just being a bit pissy one today?

WaltLongmire wrote:Besides being a great pure hitter with one of the best eyes in the history of the game, Bonds also wore all that body armor which allowed him to camp out on the inside part of the batting box with impunity.

Not sure that players should be allowed to wear that much equipment-not really a protection issue- he was trying to game the system.

Add the body armor to his skills and the PEDs and you had the perfect weapon.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Nalod wrote:Im pretty black and white on the issue. You either are and get caught or innocent.

A-rod sat for damn near 2 years and had some bad hip problems which is why he might have had problem turn on inside balls.
Does "Juicing" actually make you a better hitter? Or the body recover faster and heal? Does juice make you faster? See the ball better? Nope.

For all of Cleammons problems his insane work acumen seems to be forgotten. The juice made those work outs more effective as he could heal but these guys are still putting in the work.

If A-rod is within the current rules, then he is legal. We cant' discriminate on speculation. Arod was a great ball player before roids, as was Bonds and Cleammons. Nobody suspected until they became gods after age 35.

As for Piazza there is not reason for his HOF exclusion other than speculation.

MY take is it was very widespread and we can't be too particular. McGuire and Sosa are very interesting topics themselves. These guys really became obvious.

Scott Brocious? Chilli Davis? Paul O'neal?

So really what you are saying is that if ARod is using a PED protocol that escapes detection at this time, even though he is violating the letter of the law, that is OK for you, and he is "innocent?"

Do any of us have any idea about when ARod he started the PEDs, do you? He came up in the 90s, when they were very available- for all you know he was using them well before we thought he did. His first full year was 1996- all the players would have known about PEDs at that time.

Lenny Dykstra had his PED breakout year in 1993- he finished 2nd in the MVP balloting, and it was quite evident that he had done something to himself- do you think others might have seen the sudden change in his hitting?

Brady Anderson added 32 HRs and about 30pts to his BA in one year.

Ken Caminiti was 55 pts above his lifetime average and hit his most HRs by far at age 33.

Do PEDs make you a "better" hitter...of course they do, if your definition of "better hitter" has to do with batting average.

If if don't use PEDs and in 100 ABs, I hit .280, all I need is 3 of my warning track fly outs to turn into HRs, and suddenly I'm a .310 hitter. This is how PEDs could make you a "better hitter."

And if I can add 3 or 4 miles to my fastball, which might already be at 92/3, it will make me a "better pitcher" if it allows me to use my fastball more effectively.

Slow down Huckabee, Im trying to move forward from the era and have to realize there was a permissive stance and we talking about those who admitted, got caught some how, tested postitive, and the most obvious regarding HOF voting. Just for discussion, who are guys that might have been HOF talent regardless. At some point a guy like cleamons had a great career, was breaking down then becomes evident (hindsight) he start using. Naturally ken Griffey JR is the bellweather guy who didn't. But I think Bonds, Cleamons and A-rod all had careers and talent that might have been HOF trajectory even if you took out the insane late 30's boost. Brady Anderson, dystrsta and others were good players who had monster years all of a sudden and its more obvious. Mcquire and Sosa were HR freaks. Im only talking about few guys. LIke I said, at some point one gets in.

Im not in the uber suspicious camp that is suspect of A-rod cheating in the present. If so, he should kicked out but that is not happening. All I see is a guy who is passing his tests and having a great year. THe talent is there.

Guys have been taking "suppliments" since the beginning of time. "Speed" or "uppers" were around even when babe ruth played. I suspect some of the recent HOF guys also took advantage of what was available so basically I am suspect on most, and if so, am more tolerant of it.