TripleThreat wrote:To pace him, he needs to do what Jason Kidd did at the end, run only from three point line to three point line and find a nice balance with one of the wings in a drive and kick game and the Knicks have to commit to get him going to space the floor.

Just for reference even in Jose's worst season last year he shot 41.5% from 3pt range. It was his mid range game that fell off. He had bad wheels and it clearly impacted his game when it came to moving off the dribble and on D. If he's healthy and in better shape I see no reason he can't do what he did the year before in Dallas.

SEASON	TEAM	GP	GS	MIN	FGM-A	 FG%	3PM-A	 3P%   FT%	REB	AST	STL	TO	PTS
'13-'14	DAL     81	81	30.5	4.2-9.2	 .456	2.4-5.2	 .449  .825	2.4	4.7	0.9	1.3	11.4

It's highly plausible that Jose can return to that level of performance. Last year could just be one of those season's that goes bad for a player due to a health issues. It doesn't mean that Jose can't help this team at all. He's never been fast or athletic and still managed to be a solid NBA player. He just needs to be healthy and have a role he can handle. Outside of helping the team win, I think Phil is hoping that Jose can show he's healthy and able to contribute so that he can at least become a possible trade option at some point.

Jerian is obviously the future for the team but Phil has to get as much out of Jose as he can get. Jose can provide a 3pt threat for this team and a steady influence on the floor.

dk7th wrote:
calderon is one of the worst defenders at the position. we need enthusiastic defenders at every position, for as you know that is contagious and galvanizing. calderon defending the point of attack is going to be a demoralizing influence. can't have two inept or unenthusiastic defenders out there, meaning both melo and calderon. that is not a recipe for success.

i'd rather see a young squad with grant undergo growing pains since the knicks are not going anywhere this season.

I don't disagree that Calderon is truly horrific as a defender and his limitations and trade offs cause far too many problem compared to solutions. And that getting chewed up early in the game will set the Knicks back badly. Won't find me arguing with you on any of that.

I will say this though.

He's stuck on the roster. No one wants him in trade, not without an asset gut to get him moving. Phil Jackson has tried to dump him since he traded for him and no one wants him. And he's just a little too useful/productive as a shooter to cut and have him not be a functional 15th man on someone elses roster.

Jackson won't/can't cut him or trade him, the only thing left to do is see if he offers some limited utility.

As I said before, if he gets 8-10 minutes a game "against the very specific matchups", then I think the Knicks can try to hide him a little. Hide him completely? No, but just enough to shade getting run off the floor with him on it.

I'm not sold on the rest of the backcourt's shooting chops. Galloway has a long way to go with his shooting. Not sure how Grant will turn out in that regard ( the pure work ethic and pedigree is there though) and Affalo has regressed the last few years.

He's a net negative player who is likely to spend stretches of the year injured. I think nixluva is a bit deluded in how much burn the Knicks can really get out of him. However he's stuck on the roster and he will get some rotation minutes, all anyone can do now is try to find a way to get some kind of positive impact out of him.

Don't get me wrong man, no one has talked more about needing defense for the Knicks than I have in the past year. But there is no roster shift possible here to get even a mid level defensive team. This isn't a playoff team. Helping Grant is shading his minutes some so he's not broken after he hits his rookie wall. It's putting him at risk for injury.

RonRon wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

dk7th wrote:
calderon is one of the worst defenders at the position. we need enthusiastic defenders at every position, for as you know that is contagious and galvanizing. calderon defending the point of attack is going to be a demoralizing influence. can't have two inept or unenthusiastic defenders out there, meaning both melo and calderon. that is not a recipe for success.

i'd rather see a young squad with grant undergo growing pains since the knicks are not going anywhere this season.

I don't disagree that Calderon is truly horrific as a defender and his limitations and trade offs cause far too many problem compared to solutions. And that getting chewed up early in the game will set the Knicks back badly. Won't find me arguing with you on any of that.

I will say this though.

He's stuck on the roster. No one wants him in trade, not without an asset gut to get him moving. Phil Jackson has tried to dump him since he traded for him and no one wants him. And he's just a little too useful/productive as a shooter to cut and have him not be a functional 15th man on someone elses roster.

Jackson won't/can't cut him or trade him, the only thing left to do is see if he offers some limited utility.

As I said before, if he gets 8-10 minutes a game "against the very specific matchups", then I think the Knicks can try to hide him a little. Hide him completely? No, but just enough to shade getting run off the floor with him on it.

I'm not sold on the rest of the backcourt's shooting chops. Galloway has a long way to go with his shooting. Not sure how Grant will turn out in that regard ( the pure work ethic and pedigree is there though) and Affalo has regressed the last few years.

He's a net negative player who is likely to spend stretches of the year injured. I think nixluva is a bit deluded in how much burn the Knicks can really get out of him. However he's stuck on the roster and he will get some rotation minutes, all anyone can do now is try to find a way to get some kind of positive impact out of him.

Don't get me wrong man, no one has talked more about needing defense for the Knicks than I have in the past year. But there is no roster shift possible here to get even a mid level defensive team. This isn't a playoff team. Helping Grant is shading his minutes some so he's not broken after he hits his rookie wall. It's putting him at risk for injury.

I agree with TripleThreat, Calderon is old but he is NOT USELESS
Our roster sucked last season and Calderon has positives in him, while he will never be a good defender, his DEF by far is better than Steven Nash and Jason Kidd/Pablo *as Knicks*
Pairing Calderon with a PG/SG that could penetrate/facilitate/hit a wide open 3pter, and defend would be the key and if he is next to a SF or SF/PF that could also facilitate, he would be even better

Throughout his career he hits the 3pt, FT%, Assist/TO's ratio, and has HIGH IQ/push the tempo as the 2nd/3rd ball handler
He knows his limitations, a perfect compliment to Calderon would be Westbrook who I think the Knicks should target when he is a UFA

Grant - play defense and facilitate

Afflalo - play defense and hit from three point range at 38 per cent

NDour - make fans cheer like they cheered Oakley. Dive on the floor. Get every loose ball.

Porzingis - hit your first jumper at home. Keep moving without the ball.

Melo - hit the open man every once in a while. Shoot it.

Lopez - rebound like Tyson Chandler. Do not shoot like Tyson Chandler.

nixluva wrote:It's highly plausible that Jose can return to that level of performance....

No, it's not.

Player decline with age. No one beats Father Time.

One of the interesting aspects of the Phoenix Sun's vaunted medical staff and the push for sports science by Pete Carroll and the Seahawks and Chip Kelly and the Eagles is the discussion of lost games via injury and the metrics associated with reactivating injury across a career.

If you've been hurt before, you raise your odds of missing games in the future by being hurt again. This risk factors in exponentially as you age and reach towards the end of your playing career. Calderon is likely to get hurt more, do less and do it slower over time. This shouldn't be some huge shock to anyone.

Unless the Knicks can get some more help, he's the 4th guard on the team. Pushing Grant too hard and too fast will increase his risk of injury. You can't develop your game when you are hurt. You can't help your team when you are hurt. The Knicks can't make that critical evaluation of whether he's a long term asset or not if he's not playing because he's hurt.

Break him as a rookie, be prepared to increase his risk factor for injury the rest of his career.

The Knicks aren't going anywhere this year. That much should be apparent. No need to break this kid open in a season where the Knicks have nothing at stake. ( So they traded their pick, it's a sunk cost, it sucks but you don't break your rookie today so you can say you gave a lesser pick to a team you traded with years ago. You don't compound a bad decision with more bad decisions. If the Knicks traded away what will be a lottery pick in the next draft, then so be it. It doesn't make it smart, but its not worth crushing Zinger and Grant as rookies to prove otherwise. )

It would be nice if Calderon could give minutes without so much drawback. That being said, his job right now is to eat up enough minutes so that Affalo, Galloway and Grant don't fall apart from too much usage.

No one will like seeing the Mets limit the innings of Thor and Matz. They didn't like seeing it with Wheeler and they won't like it one day with Ynoa, but it happens for a reason.

If the Calderon problem presents anything, it's not that Grant should start the season, but that the Knicks need more wing depth.

That said, Calderon is still due $15 million guaranteed, and we haven't stretched him yet, so let the kid watch and learn in the beginning.

If or when Calderon struggles or gets injured, put the kid in, maybe around the all star break. For now, let him lead the 2nd unit to gain confidence.

Knixkik wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:I think the general consensus is that Jerian is the best bet for lead guard going into the future.

That said, Calderon is still due $15 million guaranteed, and we haven't stretched him yet, so let the kid watch and learn in the beginning.

If or when Calderon struggles or gets injured, put the kid in, maybe around the all star break. For now, let him lead the 2nd unit to gain confidence.

Extremely excited about Grant. He will struggle at times, but has the chance to be really good. I have mentioned this before, but he reminds me so much of Jrue Holiday. Not real high upside, but very good all-around ability to be a 2 way starter for us, and very productive.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The presence of Jerian should help Jose to stay healthy. He won't have to push nearly as hard as he would if he was the only PG option. We can ride Jerian's youth and keep Jose's minutes down. I would start Jerian for his defense. I don't think he'll be a detriment to winning at all. I think Jerian can handle starting in this system. The demands aren't quite what they are for most systems that may require a ball dominant PG. I think he could handle being thrown in the deep end of the pool.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that has lead to the Knicks to

1) Fail to develop young players consistently in their current era

and

2) Get them into the current hell they are in now

Jesus H. Christ. No one is asking to wrap Jerian Grant in bubble tape and redshirt the kid. Give him 30-40 games at limited minutes to acclimate to the league and pace himself and get some experience, without such huge expectations on his back, esp the NY media, then let him take a rest at the All Star break, then if he's earned it, let him run with the starting job.

Half a season on a four year rookie deal but team leverage over the first seven years of his career, it's not forever.

If Grant WAS A 2ND ROUNDER OR UDFA, then I think an argument could be made, since the team would have less leverage and controllable years, to see what you have quickly for evaluation. But this kid has first round team control, and the team has NO DRAFT PICKS NEXT YEAR.

This is not a playoff team and there is no more draft help coming next year. Is that a recipe for success to throw Grant into the fire right now or actually pace out that first 30-40 games so the Knicks can reap possibly 6 and a half more seasons of long term potential success?

Maybe Grant is one of those rare players who is ready to start as a rookie. If that's the case, it's not going to hinder his development or confidence to pace out the first 30-40 games. That's pretty typical of a rookie.

BUT IF HE IS NOT SAID RARE PLAYER, you risk over taxing him, risk him to a bigger chance of injury, risk him to the rabid instant expectations of the NY media and risk screwing with the kid's confidence , yanking him in and out of the lineup haphazardly.

Well nixluva, whatever differences you and I have about the Knicks, at least you appear to want to see them win. At least you aren't a traitor... *cough* holfresh *cough*. But good God man, your ideas, consistently time after time, they are ones that would have the real traitors out there simply love how you think.

Practical thinking - "Ok David Wright, we are going to play you as DH in interleague games, we don't want you to dive for balls, slide headfirst into the bag as a baserunner, we don't want you trying to steal bases, we are going to try to put you in the field somewhere where your risk of injury is as reduced as possible, maybe it's time to move you off of third base. Look buddy, you get hurt a ton, I mean you must secretly related to Danny Amendola and Nene, let's just try to shade that risk as best we can because this team could use your bat and see you get consistent at bats"

Nixluva thinking - "David Wright, dude totally, try to steal as many bases as you want. I mean that won't land you on the DL again, so you can tweak your back or hamstrings or whatever next and end up with spinal stenosis and just rot with no return. I mean why give you the Paul Molitor/Edgar Martinez/Harold Baines treatment, when teams focused on keeping good hitters shaded from breaking themselves. Dude, slide headfirst too, like Rickey did. And wear bowling shoes when you wash your car. And when you drive down the freeway, hang your arm out the window as far as you can. Lovely."

I have no idea why that should be such a controversial point of view. You seem to revel in the idea of trying to make me seem unreasonable. This is IMO a clear case of you making much out of nothing. The only real difference between my point of view and yours is that i'm more confident that Jerian could handle starting early on and you are saying to give him some games off the bench, which I admit is the more likely approach UNLESS he really demonstrates that he should start which IMO is a very likely scenario.