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Ilgauskas and Crawford - the Realistic Outcome
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BigSm00th
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7/12/2004  6:33 PM
I think this is the problem with getting Crawford AND Ilgausakas: both deals require Shandon Anderson.

In order to get Ilgauskas, the only combination that really works is Ilgauskas for KT and Anderson. That's the only tandem that works under the CBA.

So I'm thinking, will Nazr Mohammed by substituted into the Chicago deal. I'd think Chicago would like to add another young big man to their front court, and he is from Chicago so PR-wise, they could use that (two former Illinois guys in the same deal: Frank Williams and Mohammed).

I think Mohammed, Williams, Mutumbo, Trybanski, Harrington, and Norris for JYD, Eddie Robinson, and Jamal Crawford works. The Knicks give up $19.46 million, while the Bulls give up slightly more than $12 million, leading to Crawford's first year salary at $7 million, which is what the papers have been saying, and a total deal worth 6 years, $55 million, which is the same deal Quentin Richardson got so I think my numbers are accurate.

Where does this leave the Knicks?
PG: Marbury
SG: Houston, Crawford
SF: TT, Penny, Ariza, ERobinson
PF: Sweetney, JYD
C: Ilgauskas

That's 10 players. I'd imagine if strong play continues, Andre Barret makes that squad. He's been a very good ballhawk, has scored well and passed well without turning it over, and that's really all you want in a backup PG. Figure he'd be #11, and bringing back Vin Baker would be 12. I think signing Keon Clark really benefits that team.

PG: Marbury, Barret
SG: Houston, Crawford
SF: TT, Penny, Ariza
PF: Sweetney, Baker, JYD
C: Ilgauskas, Clark
IL: Eddie Robinson

Looking over the deal, I just don't see Cleveland pulling this off unless they really like KT and want to get something for Ilgauskas for fear that they'll lose him this offseason. They already have the same player that Shandon Anderson is in Ira Newble, and is KT really an upgrade over Tony Battie.

My money goes on the Knicks pulling through with Crawford and not doing anything with Cleveland, it makes more sense that way.
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Knicksfan
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7/12/2004  6:47 PM
How much does Ilgauskas exactly makes?

Can't NY include money in the deal along with Kurt and another player to make it possible? No possible way to make it without Anderson
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joec32033
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7/12/2004  6:50 PM
KT and Shandon aren't the only combo that works....

New York trades: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 24.6 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.9 minutes)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 12.8 minutes)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.6 minutes)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.1 minutes)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 12.8 minutes)
New York receives: PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes) Change in team outlook: +7.7 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

Chicago trades: SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.1 minutes)
PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
Chicago receives: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 80 games)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 66 games)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 56 games)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7 games)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 56 games) Change in team outlook: -10.2 ppg, -4.4 rpg, and -1.3 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 80 games)
SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 51 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.5 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and +1.6 apg.
TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to New York, Chicago, and Cleveland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. New York, Chicago, and Cleveland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have been assigned Trade ID number 1739625
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VDesai
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7/12/2004  6:52 PM
In the end it doesnt really matter to us who goes where if we are getting Crawford and Z. I think Deke and KT (maybe some more filler) end up in Cleveland and Shandon and the rest (FW, Othella, Trybanksi) end up in Chicago, and maybe we only take Jerome Williams back. Or perhaps maybe we take Chris Jeffries rather than Eddie Robinson.
joec32033
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7/12/2004  6:59 PM
Posted by VDesai:

In the end it doesnt really matter to us who goes where if we are getting Crawford and Z. I think Deke and KT (maybe some more filler) end up in Cleveland and Shandon and the rest (FW, Othella, Trybanksi) end up in Chicago, and maybe we only take Jerome Williams back. Or perhaps maybe we take Chris Jeffries rather than Eddie Robinson.

Doesn't matter to us as long as we get Craw and Z is right, but the other teams have plans too...
~You can't run from who you are.~
Nalod
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7/12/2004  7:05 PM
The other teams do not matter to the wishful thinking Knick fan.

Crawford is a free agent and we have to make it worthwhile to the bulls to do a sign and trade. Same thing for Cleveland.

We need to dump Moochie for salary purpose. Its just not an endless pit of money to just take on more and more.
BigSm00th
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7/12/2004  7:07 PM
Monday, July 12, 2004

Knicks Possibly Bluffing With Ilgauskas

Recently Frank Isola of the Daily News wrote an article (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/211357p-182056c.html) detailing the Knicks' interest in Zydrunas Ilgauskas, a 7'3" monster from Lithuania who plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Interestingly, this announcement comes after the Knicks and Bulls have apparently been stalemated in talks for Jamal Crawford, the exciting 24-year-old swingman the Bulls have on their roster.

Could it be that Knicks' GM Isiah Thomas could be bluffing his way to getting Crawford? Possibly.

The rumors from the Bulls/Knicks front is that the Knicks are willing to part with Frank Williams, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski (his performance in summer league is laughable), Shandon Anderson, and Moochie Norris, however, for whatever reason, Thomas seems intent on keeping Dikembe Mutumbo around, the Knicks' ageless Center.

Ilgauskas is a talent, no doubt, he averaged 15 points, 8 rebounds, and a block last year, but is he a player that Thomas would actually consider taking over Crawford, who is five years younger and much less injury prone, just over one salary? The deal to get Ilgauskas would be Mutumbo, Mohammed, and Kurt Thomas, while the Bulls are insisting the Knicks substitute Mutumbo instead of Norris due to his contract.

Could it be that the Knicks are trying to force the Bulls into accepting Norris? Yes. Trading last year's starting front court (Mohammed and Thomas) and an expiring contract just to get an injured but talented center who will be 30 years old next June seems to go against what Isiah said he was hoping this offseason: get younger and more athletic.

The Bulls have basically been painted into a corner. Their other possible trading partners were the Miami Heat and the Indiana Pacers. Miami was willing to part with Caron Butler and Eddie Jones for Crawford and the expiring deals, but it now seems like they will deal those two to get the Big Aristotle. Indiana was offering Al Harrington, but he was traded to Atlanta for a resigned Stephen Jackson. A darkhorse could be the Denver Nuggets, who have tried to get a shooting guard but have struck out three times this offseason (Manu Ginobili, Quentin Richardson, Kobe Bryant) and are waiting on Kenyon Martin. It is likely Martin will sign the Nuggets offer sheet, and the Nets will wait it out until almost August. Now with rumors floating around that the Knicks could simply do another deal and leave the Bulls hanging with THREE disgruntled players who are angry at management may force them into doing the trade without Mutumbo, since the longer they wait, there will be a possibility of losing Crawford for nothing (if Denver offers him a huge contract and the Bulls don't match).

Last year the Bulls season was rocked by turmoil. Eddie Robinson, a player who will be probably be traded if Crawford is dealt, publicly mocked the coaching staff and management. Crawford and the front office traded barbs all year, and he still has yet to be offered a contract from the Bulls. This was supposed to be the Bulls final rebuilding attempt. They have their probable starting 5 in place for the forseeable future (Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Tyson Chandler, and Eddy Curry) and don't need Crawford any more. The chance to get rid of Crawford and two horrible contracts with horrible attitudes, and in their places get expiring contracts and veterans known for work ethic and good practice habits (something Paxson and Skiles have both publicly said they want on the Bulls to set an example for the younger players) might be too good to pass up. If they do pass it up, they risk losing Crawford for nothing and not improving their cap situation at all, or having to resign Crawford, screwing up their cap flexibility, and going into the 04-05 campaign with three players out to cause trouble.

Isiah Thomas has made his move, it's time for the Bulls to make theirs. Hopefully this is resolved once the player moratorium ends on the 14th.

posted by Tkel @ 6:50 PM
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jazz74
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7/12/2004  7:08 PM
smells like a three way deal to me. it will be interesting the next week or so. we pretty much know crawford is coming but will the big z come or walker? i would rather have the big z especially how he busted our ass last year. he is still young for a center and had two healthy years.
Allanfan20
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7/12/2004  7:23 PM
I think I am going to become part of the minority and choose Walker. He grabs just as many rebounds, scores much better, and he opens things up for his teammates, just as well, if not better. He's a very good rebounder. He is what Tim Thomas should be. Big Z should be grabbing 10 - 12 rebounds, with his height and talent, but he doesn't. He grabs 8.10, which is .2 less than 'Toine, as a matter of fact. His shot blocking is great, but his overall defense still isn't so good. I'm taking my chances with 'Toine.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
PhilinLA
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7/12/2004  7:32 PM
Posted by jazz74:

smells like a three way deal to me. it will be interesting the next week or so. we pretty much know crawford is coming but will the big z come or walker? i would rather have the big z especially how he busted our ass last year. he is still young for a center and had two healthy years.
I think you're right. There's an elegant three-way deal to be made here, which will still allow us to add another player or two in separate deals/signings.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
joec32033
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7/12/2004  7:33 PM
Possible 3 way deal? No way...who could EVER come up with a deal that will work?
~You can't run from who you are.~
timmyTtop
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7/12/2004  7:41 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:

How much does Ilgauskas exactly makes?

Can't NY include money in the deal along with Kurt and another player to make it possible? No possible way to make it without Anderson

he makes 14.625 ish
Knicksfan
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7/12/2004  7:57 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:
Monday, July 12, 2004

Knicks Possibly Bluffing With Ilgauskas

Recently Frank Isola of the Daily News wrote an article (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/211357p-182056c.html) detailing the Knicks' interest in Zydrunas Ilgauskas, a 7'3" monster from Lithuania who plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Interestingly, this announcement comes after the Knicks and Bulls have apparently been stalemated in talks for Jamal Crawford, the exciting 24-year-old swingman the Bulls have on their roster.

Could it be that Knicks' GM Isiah Thomas could be bluffing his way to getting Crawford? Possibly.

The rumors from the Bulls/Knicks front is that the Knicks are willing to part with Frank Williams, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski (his performance in summer league is laughable), Shandon Anderson, and Moochie Norris, however, for whatever reason, Thomas seems intent on keeping Dikembe Mutumbo around, the Knicks' ageless Center.

Ilgauskas is a talent, no doubt, he averaged 15 points, 8 rebounds, and a block last year, but is he a player that Thomas would actually consider taking over Crawford, who is five years younger and much less injury prone, just over one salary? The deal to get Ilgauskas would be Mutumbo, Mohammed, and Kurt Thomas, while the Bulls are insisting the Knicks substitute Mutumbo instead of Norris due to his contract.

Could it be that the Knicks are trying to force the Bulls into accepting Norris? Yes. Trading last year's starting front court (Mohammed and Thomas) and an expiring contract just to get an injured but talented center who will be 30 years old next June seems to go against what Isiah said he was hoping this offseason: get younger and more athletic.

The Bulls have basically been painted into a corner. Their other possible trading partners were the Miami Heat and the Indiana Pacers. Miami was willing to part with Caron Butler and Eddie Jones for Crawford and the expiring deals, but it now seems like they will deal those two to get the Big Aristotle. Indiana was offering Al Harrington, but he was traded to Atlanta for a resigned Stephen Jackson. A darkhorse could be the Denver Nuggets, who have tried to get a shooting guard but have struck out three times this offseason (Manu Ginobili, Quentin Richardson, Kobe Bryant) and are waiting on Kenyon Martin. It is likely Martin will sign the Nuggets offer sheet, and the Nets will wait it out until almost August. Now with rumors floating around that the Knicks could simply do another deal and leave the Bulls hanging with THREE disgruntled players who are angry at management may force them into doing the trade without Mutumbo, since the longer they wait, there will be a possibility of losing Crawford for nothing (if Denver offers him a huge contract and the Bulls don't match).

Last year the Bulls season was rocked by turmoil. Eddie Robinson, a player who will be probably be traded if Crawford is dealt, publicly mocked the coaching staff and management. Crawford and the front office traded barbs all year, and he still has yet to be offered a contract from the Bulls. This was supposed to be the Bulls final rebuilding attempt. They have their probable starting 5 in place for the forseeable future (Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Tyson Chandler, and Eddy Curry) and don't need Crawford any more. The chance to get rid of Crawford and two horrible contracts with horrible attitudes, and in their places get expiring contracts and veterans known for work ethic and good practice habits (something Paxson and Skiles have both publicly said they want on the Bulls to set an example for the younger players) might be too good to pass up. If they do pass it up, they risk losing Crawford for nothing and not improving their cap situation at all, or having to resign Crawford, screwing up their cap flexibility, and going into the 04-05 campaign with three players out to cause trouble.

Isiah Thomas has made his move, it's time for the Bulls to make theirs. Hopefully this is resolved once the player moratorium ends on the 14th.

posted by Tkel @ 6:50 PM

This really makes me appreciate what Isiah is trying to do. Even if the deal doesn't happen, you can see he is playing all his cards the right way. He is really aggresive, the Anti-Layden.

Thanks for the information timmyTtop.
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TMS
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7/13/2004  10:27 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Possible 3 way deal? No way...who could EVER come up with a deal that will work?

here's one that may work:

New York trades: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 24.6 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.9 minutes)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 12.8 minutes)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.6 minutes)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.1 minutes)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 12.8 minutes)
New York receives: PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes) Change in team outlook: +7.7 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

Chicago trades: SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.1 minutes)
PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
Chicago receives: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 80 games)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 66 games)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 56 games)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7 games)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 56 games) Change in team outlook: -10.2 ppg, -4.4 rpg, and -1.3 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 80 games)
SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 51 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.5 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and +1.6 apg.
TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to New York, Chicago, and Cleveland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. New York, Chicago, and Cleveland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have been assigned Trade ID number 1739625

thank you, thank you...i'll take all the credit for thinking up this brilliant trade!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
joec32033
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7/13/2004  11:41 AM
Wow....you're good!
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Bonn1997
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7/13/2004  12:45 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by joec32033:

Possible 3 way deal? No way...who could EVER come up with a deal that will work?

here's one that may work:

New York trades: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 24.6 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.9 minutes)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 12.8 minutes)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 15.6 minutes)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.1 minutes)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 12.8 minutes)
New York receives: PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes) Change in team outlook: +7.7 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

Chicago trades: SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 20.1 minutes)
PF Jerome Williams (6.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 24.1 minutes)
SG Jamal Crawford (17.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.1 apg in 35.1 minutes)
Chicago receives: SF Shandon Anderson (7.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 80 games)
PG Moochie Norris (3.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 66 games)
PF Othella Harrington (4.6 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.5 apg in 56 games)
C Cezary Trybanski (0.1 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7 games)
PG Frank Williams (3.9 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 2.2 apg in 56 games) Change in team outlook: -10.2 ppg, -4.4 rpg, and -1.3 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (15.3 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 1.4 apg in 31.3 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 80 games)
SF Eddie Robinson (6.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.1 apg in 51 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.5 ppg, +2.2 rpg, and +1.6 apg.
TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to New York, Chicago, and Cleveland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. New York, Chicago, and Cleveland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have been assigned Trade ID number 1739625

thank you, thank you...i'll take all the credit for thinking up this brilliant trade!
I don't think Chicago is willing to accept both Shandon and Moochie. I think they'd rather just keep JYD and E-Rob. I think the real problem is that BOTH Chicago and Cleveland want Mutombo
joec32033
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7/13/2004  1:17 PM
If that's the case, than, make them sweeten the pot....I think I would rather have Craw than Z (I think his potential is too much to pass up), but make them work for Mutumbo if he is that important...
~You can't run from who you are.~
PhilinLA
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7/13/2004  1:41 PM
I think we're gonna end up with either Craw, Z and a forward to be named, or Craw, Dampier and Walker. I prefer scenario one.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
VDesai
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7/13/2004  1:54 PM
I think a good center should be priority no.1 and then see what we can do about Crawford. We rarely get the opportunity to acquire a C the quality of Ilgauskas or Dampier. I think we have a situation where Crawford definitely wants to be here, and his agent wants to get him here. Unless some other suitors get involved (like Denver), we can drag the Crawford stuff out a little longer. I think we can still do some mix and matching with Crawford to make it work....perhaps he'll have to lower his salary a bit.
Knicksfan
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7/13/2004  1:58 PM
Posted by PhilinLA:

I think we're gonna end up with either Craw, Z and a forward to be named, or Craw, Dampier and Walker. I prefer scenario one.

Both deals are possible, the only thing that has to happen is Chicago being ok with the deal they had been ok the other night, the Moochie version. Once thats clear, and whom knows if thats already clear, then we can be .
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