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ESPN New Projections for Boom/Bust
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Knixkik
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6/18/2015  2:52 PM
College Players In 2015 NBA Draft Class By Projected SPM
PLAYER	POSITION	PROJECTED SPM SUPERSTAR	STARTER ROLE PLAYER BUST
Karl-Anthony Towns 1.03 13.5% 42.7% 16.3% 27.5%
Justise Winslow SF 0.88 8.4% 51.1% 17.7% 22.9%
Stanley Johnson SF 0.68 6.8% 42.4% 27.9% 23.0%
Jahlil Okafor C 0.52 5.9% 41.0% 23.6% 29.6%
D`Angelo Russell 0.51 15.2% 34.2% 9.7% 40.9%

Interesting take by ESPN on the boom or bust projections. Russell seems like the biggest wild card and Winslow seems like the safest pick based on this model. Highest likelihood of being a starter, and lowest bust potential. Can't really disagree. Winslow at best is probably Jimmy Butler, but most likely is probably like Iguodala as far as impact, and that's just fine.

Generally speaking, i would think Russell, Okafor, and Winslow are the safest picks, while Towns, Mudiay, and Porzingis are the biggest wild cards, but have the greatest upside of anyone.

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crzymdups
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6/18/2015  3:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/18/2015  3:11 PM
interesting... do you have a link to that one?

edit: ah, nice formatting fix!

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crzymdups
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6/18/2015  3:11 PM
Yeah, this backs up my thinking that Winslow is the "safe" pick.

Surprised to see Stanley Johnson so highly thought of. I do like that guy.

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Bonn1997
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6/18/2015  3:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/18/2015  3:15 PM
Winslow looks good. He's still my pick @ 4 assuming the big 3 are not available, though I'd give him some thought even if OK4 or Russell is.
What are the numbers under "projected" and what is "SPM"?
crzymdups
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6/18/2015  3:19 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Winslow looks good. He's still my pick @ 4 assuming the big 3 are not available, though I'd give him some thought even if OK4 or Russell is.
What are the numbers under "projected" and what is "SPM"?

According to ESPN Stats & Info’s NBA Draft Projection Model, Russell is projected to have a statistical plus/minus of 0.51 in years 2 through 5 of his NBA career. Statistical plus/minus is an estimate of a player’s contribution to his team’s point differential per 100 possessions. An SPM of zero is considered league average (weighted for minutes), and replacement level players have an SPM of about -2.

The projection model calculated the likelihood of a player to fall into one of four categories: Superstar, Starter, Role Player and Bust. There are generally one superstar, 10 starters and 25 role players who come out of each draft class.

When projecting a player’s SPM, Year 2 through Year 5 were selected because first-round picks are under control of the team that drafted them for four years with the potential of the player taking a fifth-year qualifying offer. Rookie seasons are excluded; they often are outliers, which can be attributed to a player being drafted by a bad team, needing time to develop, etc.

To project SPM, box-score statistics (adjusted for the level of competition faced and pace of game), Chad Ford’s Top 100 Prospect Rankings and player information (age, height, weight, class year, position) were the main inputs. The model is based off this information from 2001 to 2010 to predict SPM for players in later draft classes. Steps were taken to adjust for players who played very few minutes or did not play at all in the NBA.

Scouts’ ranks were the biggest factor in projecting a player’s success. Among the other findings in the projections, younger players generally achieve a higher SPM, team-adjusted offensive and defensive efficiencies matter, and having higher adjusted rate stats (assist percentage, rebound percentage, effective field goal percentage) in college is good for a player’s projection (unadjusted counting stats such as points are not as important).

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franco12
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6/18/2015  3:19 PM
Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!
fishmike
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6/18/2015  3:27 PM
franco12 wrote:Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!
yea... kinda indicating its either going to really click or not at all. He's my fav player in the draft I think. I would love him becoming a Knick. I dont think people saw much last year. He's the best passer in this draft. Also the best shooter. Oh.. and he led his team in rebounding at guard. He's also very young turning 19 right before march madness kicked off
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crzymdups
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6/18/2015  3:28 PM
fishmike wrote:
franco12 wrote:Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!
yea... kinda indicating its either going to really click or not at all. He's my fav player in the draft I think. I would love him becoming a Knick. I dont think people saw much last year. He's the best passer in this draft. Also the best shooter. Oh.. and he led his team in rebounding at guard. He's also very young turning 19 right before march madness kicked off

I'm praying he slips to us, but if I'm being honest I can't fathom Philly passing on him.

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Moonangie
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6/18/2015  3:36 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
franco12 wrote:Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!
yea... kinda indicating its either going to really click or not at all. He's my fav player in the draft I think. I would love him becoming a Knick. I dont think people saw much last year. He's the best passer in this draft. Also the best shooter. Oh.. and he led his team in rebounding at guard. He's also very young turning 19 right before march madness kicked off

I'm praying he slips to us, but if I'm being honest I can't fathom Philly passing on him.

We will find out in one week, thankfully.

MaTT4281
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6/18/2015  4:02 PM
Moonangie wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
franco12 wrote:Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!
yea... kinda indicating its either going to really click or not at all. He's my fav player in the draft I think. I would love him becoming a Knick. I dont think people saw much last year. He's the best passer in this draft. Also the best shooter. Oh.. and he led his team in rebounding at guard. He's also very young turning 19 right before march madness kicked off

I'm praying he slips to us, but if I'm being honest I can't fathom Philly passing on him.

We will find out in one week, thankfully.

I'm not convinced he makes it to Philly. I'd take him ahead of Okafor, wonder how LA will steer this draft.

Knixkik
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6/18/2015  4:48 PM
franco12 wrote:Am I reading this right- Russell has both the greatest chance to be a superstar and bust? 40% bust? Wow!

That's right. And it's interesting. Usually you wouldn't see this from the most skilled player in the draft. You would see it from the freak athletes. Then again, Mudiay and Porzingis aren't on the list because they didn't play in college. They could easily be higher risk/reward then Russell if this model accounted for them.

Bonn1997
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6/19/2015  7:08 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2015  7:12 AM
I'm not saying these are the only important #s but if you went strictly by them you'd have to take Winslow ahead of Russell. The added 6.8% chance of getting a superstar with Russell is not that big. If you picked someone like Russell over someone like Winslow in 15 consecutive draft years, this is saying it would benefit you once in terms of getting a superstar. The added 18% chance of getting a bust with Russell is much bigger. Okafor doesn't come out looking great here either though.
codeunknown
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6/19/2015  8:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2015  8:53 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not saying these are the only important #s but if you went strictly by them you'd have to take Winslow ahead of Russell. The added 6.8% chance of getting a superstar with Russell is not that big. If you picked someone like Russell over someone like Winslow in 15 consecutive draft years, this is saying it would benefit you once in terms of getting a superstar. The added 18% chance of getting a bust with Russell is much bigger. Okafor doesn't come out looking great here either though.

Right, unless 1) you significantly weight a superstar above the other categories in a non-linear way for a variety of on/off court reasons and 2) if you believe the probability of non-draft pathway acquisition of superstar talent/cost vs. other talent/cost is worse.

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newyorker4ever
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6/19/2015  9:23 AM
Knixkik wrote:College Players In 2015 NBA Draft Class By Projected SPM
PLAYER	POSITION	PROJECTED SPM SUPERSTAR	STARTER ROLE PLAYER BUST
Karl-Anthony Towns 1.03 13.5% 42.7% 16.3% 27.5%
Justise Winslow SF 0.88 8.4% 51.1% 17.7% 22.9%
Stanley Johnson SF 0.68 6.8% 42.4% 27.9% 23.0%
Jahlil Okafor C 0.52 5.9% 41.0% 23.6% 29.6%
D`Angelo Russell 0.51 15.2% 34.2% 9.7% 40.9%

Interesting take by ESPN on the boom or bust projections. Russell seems like the biggest wild card and Winslow seems like the safest pick based on this model. Highest likelihood of being a starter, and lowest bust potential. Can't really disagree. Winslow at best is probably Jimmy Butler, but most likely is probably like Iguodala as far as impact, and that's just fine.

Generally speaking, i would think Russell, Okafor, and Winslow are the safest picks, while Towns, Mudiay, and Porzingis are the biggest wild cards, but have the greatest upside of anyone.


I'd have to say I agree with your assessment of the safest picks and wild cards except I wouldn't call Towns a wild card.
Bonn1997
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6/19/2015  9:30 AM
codeunknown wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm not saying these are the only important #s but if you went strictly by them you'd have to take Winslow ahead of Russell. The added 6.8% chance of getting a superstar with Russell is not that big. If you picked someone like Russell over someone like Winslow in 15 consecutive draft years, this is saying it would benefit you once in terms of getting a superstar. The added 18% chance of getting a bust with Russell is much bigger. Okafor doesn't come out looking great here either though.

Right, unless 1) you significantly weight a superstar above the other categories in a non-linear way for a variety of on/off court reasons and 2) if you believe the probability of non-draft pathway acquisition of superstar talent/cost vs. other talent/cost is worse.


True but you'd have to VERY significantly outweigh the superstar category for that 6 in 100 chance to be critical. Also, if Russell is a bust, not having our lottery pick next year would hurt. I think you can give it more than a 6 in 100 chance that Winslow plays very well and is one of the reasons a star FA comes here or is a key piece in a James Harden like trade for a superstar or we by chance get a superstar elsewhere (ex - a later draft pick). I do see what you're saying, though. You could at least make a non-delusional argument that that 6 in 100 chance is critical.
VCoug
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6/19/2015  10:08 AM
Interesting, but I'd like to see how this evaluation would work on previous draft classes.
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crzymdups
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6/19/2015  11:40 AM
VCoug wrote:Interesting, but I'd like to see how this evaluation would work on previous draft classes.

Here's one they did from the 2012 draft, slightly different model though. (I'm guessing these models don't do that well so they come up with a new one every year?)

Interesting to see how off they can be. This is no science! Also, below that is a link to another model trying to predict booms or busts for the 2013 draft. Also quite off.

1. Andre Drummond, Connecticut Huskies

The reward: Drummond has the potential to be a dynamic 21st century center. He is 270 pounds, laterally and vertically athletic, and while his offensive game is underdeveloped, he has good footwork and hands. He's a relatively blank canvas. A logical best-case scenario for Drummond is somewhere in the Tyson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan category, with the potential to develop more low-post scoring depending on his work ethic.

The risk: Drummond does not have any one thing that he actually does well on a basketball floor. He is not a great rebounder, his shot-blocking is erratic and his timing is not natural. While the athleticism is obvious, it hasn't yet translated into his having an elite skill on the floor.


Drummond shoots like a beginning player, his free throws are awful, and while he is still young, so are several other prospects. Anyone who compares him to Dwight Howard never watched Howard play in high school before he was taken No. 1 in the draft, because he was far more developed than Drummond is at this point.

Where he should go: Middle of the first round, to a team with quality veterans where he can sit and learn, all while trying to develop in practice and the D-League.

2. Jared Sullinger, Ohio State Buckeyes

The reward: Sullinger has long been admired by NBA scouts and college coaches alike for his versatile low-post game, soft hands and "Elton Brand-like" ability to maneuver around longer bodies despite a shorter frame. Sullinger compares somewhat to how Kevin Love was viewed, although Love was bigger and more dominant when he came out. Sullinger's ceiling is that of a fit Brand, an All-Star-level power forward with face-up abilities out to 20 feet.

The risk: Sullinger is not the athlete that Love is; he struggles to guard ball screens (the primary offense of the NBA) and score over length, which is more present in the league every year. Sullinger was an unathletic, overweight mess in Chicago. His agility drills were embarrassing -- and if that was just training for the combine, imagine what he will look like in an NBA camp. Sullinger's propensity to gain weight, struggle with length and his dominance at the college level reminds me of Michael Sweetney.

Where he should go: Truthfully, late in the first round. Sullinger has a lot of basketball skill, but he is not only smallish, he lacks athleticism. Combine that with his not being a good defender and it takes a unique need to bring him in.


There were times in college when Jones looked unguardable. Peter G. Aiken/US Presswire
3. Perry Jones III, Baylor Bears

The reward: Jones is a good person -- bright, hardworking and solid in almost every way. He is huge at 6-foot-11, and he played a lot of center and some power forward at Baylor. He can shoot, run, handle and pass (he likes to distribute, too). Jones' movement as an athlete looks like an NBA stud, and his jumper has improved. Though he is not an alpha male, an NBA team is not made up of all alpha males.

Jones, a top-10 prospect last year, improved this season, yet many still aren't in love with him -- partly because his team did not get him the ball. Against Kentucky in the Elite Eight, there was a stretch during which Jones looked unguardable and very much at home against the length of the Wildcats, unlike most college players.

The risk: Jones could easily get a GM or a coach fired. His skill seems obvious, but something is missing. Call it guts, drive or competitive spirit, Jones is just missing that something a competitor needs to be great against the best. Also, Jones will be switching positions and handling the ball more, as well as guarding on the perimeter. While he can dribble, and his foot speed says he should be able to defend, he has done neither at the college level, playing the 4 and 5 and a lot of zone during his time in Waco, Texas. Jones very well could end up a tweener, with no position to call home, and get down on himself if his minutes are limited early.

Where he should go: In the lottery. Jones needs to be on a team with a creative point guard and another lead player.

4. Austin Rivers, Duke Blue Devils

The reward: Coming in somewhere between Dwyane Wade, Ben Gordon and Jason Terry, the ceiling should be high for Rivers. With an explosive first step, a fearless attitude and the ability to get rolling from the 3-point line, Rivers possesses a game that may be better suited for the pros than college. On the right team, Rivers could be an undersize 2 who can come off ball screens in attack mode and even play some backup point in much the same role.

Bloodlines are important to many GMs, and Rivers obviously has them through his father, Doc. He can score, sometimes in bunches, and occasionally will pass. Rivers likely will do much more than merely stick in the league.

The risk: Rivers has plenty of detractors. Coaches talk about how "challenging" he is to coach and how his Duke teammates never seemed to warm up to him.

Though Rivers patterns his game after Wade, he is not the athlete Wade was when he entered the league. Rivers also shoots a lot considering how streaky he can be. He might not have "bust" written on him, but he easily could bounce around the league looking for the right fit if he doesn't find it with the team that drafts him.

Where he should go: To a team that needs scoring or one that really needs points off the bench. I think his value is in the 18-25 range.

5. Tony Wroten, Washington Huskies

The reward: Wroten is a stud athlete with good vision and awesome potential going to the rim or playing in transition. Though he doesn't defend as well as Rajon Rondo, he is Rondo-like in his ability to get to the rim despite teams giving him a cushion because they don't respect his jump shot. Wroten's body and vision look like that of an NBA starting point guard.

The risk: Wroten can't shoot and doesn't seem to know it. He shoots terribly and often -- a lethal combination. Additionally, he is a lazy defender despite his enormous physical gifts. Wroten struggled to lead UW, and there were plenty of times when the team was actually better with him on the bench. A nonshooting NBA point guard, even a backup point guard, has to change the tempo while defending for 94 feet -- two things Wroten has yet to show he can do.

Where he should go: In the second round. I want to see whether Wroten works to fix his jumper, but I don't want to be locked in for it.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1682723-2013-nba-draft-playing-boom-or-bust-with-top-incoming-prospects/page/16

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VCoug
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6/19/2015  1:26 PM
crzymdups wrote:
VCoug wrote:Interesting, but I'd like to see how this evaluation would work on previous draft classes.

Here's one they did from the 2012 draft, slightly different model though. (I'm guessing these models don't do that well so they come up with a new one every year?)

Interesting to see how off they can be. This is no science! Also, below that is a link to another model trying to predict booms or busts for the 2013 draft. Also quite off.

1. Andre Drummond, Connecticut Huskies

The reward: Drummond has the potential to be a dynamic 21st century center. He is 270 pounds, laterally and vertically athletic, and while his offensive game is underdeveloped, he has good footwork and hands. He's a relatively blank canvas. A logical best-case scenario for Drummond is somewhere in the Tyson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan category, with the potential to develop more low-post scoring depending on his work ethic.

The risk: Drummond does not have any one thing that he actually does well on a basketball floor. He is not a great rebounder, his shot-blocking is erratic and his timing is not natural. While the athleticism is obvious, it hasn't yet translated into his having an elite skill on the floor.


Drummond shoots like a beginning player, his free throws are awful, and while he is still young, so are several other prospects. Anyone who compares him to Dwight Howard never watched Howard play in high school before he was taken No. 1 in the draft, because he was far more developed than Drummond is at this point.

Where he should go: Middle of the first round, to a team with quality veterans where he can sit and learn, all while trying to develop in practice and the D-League.

2. Jared Sullinger, Ohio State Buckeyes

The reward: Sullinger has long been admired by NBA scouts and college coaches alike for his versatile low-post game, soft hands and "Elton Brand-like" ability to maneuver around longer bodies despite a shorter frame. Sullinger compares somewhat to how Kevin Love was viewed, although Love was bigger and more dominant when he came out. Sullinger's ceiling is that of a fit Brand, an All-Star-level power forward with face-up abilities out to 20 feet.

The risk: Sullinger is not the athlete that Love is; he struggles to guard ball screens (the primary offense of the NBA) and score over length, which is more present in the league every year. Sullinger was an unathletic, overweight mess in Chicago. His agility drills were embarrassing -- and if that was just training for the combine, imagine what he will look like in an NBA camp. Sullinger's propensity to gain weight, struggle with length and his dominance at the college level reminds me of Michael Sweetney.

Where he should go: Truthfully, late in the first round. Sullinger has a lot of basketball skill, but he is not only smallish, he lacks athleticism. Combine that with his not being a good defender and it takes a unique need to bring him in.


There were times in college when Jones looked unguardable. Peter G. Aiken/US Presswire
3. Perry Jones III, Baylor Bears

The reward: Jones is a good person -- bright, hardworking and solid in almost every way. He is huge at 6-foot-11, and he played a lot of center and some power forward at Baylor. He can shoot, run, handle and pass (he likes to distribute, too). Jones' movement as an athlete looks like an NBA stud, and his jumper has improved. Though he is not an alpha male, an NBA team is not made up of all alpha males.

Jones, a top-10 prospect last year, improved this season, yet many still aren't in love with him -- partly because his team did not get him the ball. Against Kentucky in the Elite Eight, there was a stretch during which Jones looked unguardable and very much at home against the length of the Wildcats, unlike most college players.

The risk: Jones could easily get a GM or a coach fired. His skill seems obvious, but something is missing. Call it guts, drive or competitive spirit, Jones is just missing that something a competitor needs to be great against the best. Also, Jones will be switching positions and handling the ball more, as well as guarding on the perimeter. While he can dribble, and his foot speed says he should be able to defend, he has done neither at the college level, playing the 4 and 5 and a lot of zone during his time in Waco, Texas. Jones very well could end up a tweener, with no position to call home, and get down on himself if his minutes are limited early.

Where he should go: In the lottery. Jones needs to be on a team with a creative point guard and another lead player.

4. Austin Rivers, Duke Blue Devils

The reward: Coming in somewhere between Dwyane Wade, Ben Gordon and Jason Terry, the ceiling should be high for Rivers. With an explosive first step, a fearless attitude and the ability to get rolling from the 3-point line, Rivers possesses a game that may be better suited for the pros than college. On the right team, Rivers could be an undersize 2 who can come off ball screens in attack mode and even play some backup point in much the same role.

Bloodlines are important to many GMs, and Rivers obviously has them through his father, Doc. He can score, sometimes in bunches, and occasionally will pass. Rivers likely will do much more than merely stick in the league.

The risk: Rivers has plenty of detractors. Coaches talk about how "challenging" he is to coach and how his Duke teammates never seemed to warm up to him.

Though Rivers patterns his game after Wade, he is not the athlete Wade was when he entered the league. Rivers also shoots a lot considering how streaky he can be. He might not have "bust" written on him, but he easily could bounce around the league looking for the right fit if he doesn't find it with the team that drafts him.

Where he should go: To a team that needs scoring or one that really needs points off the bench. I think his value is in the 18-25 range.

5. Tony Wroten, Washington Huskies

The reward: Wroten is a stud athlete with good vision and awesome potential going to the rim or playing in transition. Though he doesn't defend as well as Rajon Rondo, he is Rondo-like in his ability to get to the rim despite teams giving him a cushion because they don't respect his jump shot. Wroten's body and vision look like that of an NBA starting point guard.

The risk: Wroten can't shoot and doesn't seem to know it. He shoots terribly and often -- a lethal combination. Additionally, he is a lazy defender despite his enormous physical gifts. Wroten struggled to lead UW, and there were plenty of times when the team was actually better with him on the bench. A nonshooting NBA point guard, even a backup point guard, has to change the tempo while defending for 94 feet -- two things Wroten has yet to show he can do.

Where he should go: In the second round. I want to see whether Wroten works to fix his jumper, but I don't want to be locked in for it.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1682723-2013-nba-draft-playing-boom-or-bust-with-top-incoming-prospects/page/16

Thanks, but neither of those articles are the same. I was hoping for past evidence of the statistical model.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
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6/19/2015  1:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/19/2015  1:30 PM
VCoug wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
VCoug wrote:Interesting, but I'd like to see how this evaluation would work on previous draft classes.


(I'm guessing these models don't do that well so they come up with a new one every year?)

Thanks, but neither of those articles are the same. I was hoping for past evidence of the statistical model.

Like I said, I'm guessing they come up with a new model every year because the old one didn't work.

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technomaster
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6/19/2015  4:08 PM
My thoughts:

Russell: I just have this little worry that he could also end up like Jamal Crawford (is that disappointing?) or Javaris Crittenton (ie - when he makes it to the NBA, it just doesn't click). I'm not sure I'd buy he's the next Steph Curry, because frankly there are no other players quite like Curry. He has a lot of tricks and countermoves in his game - and man, I've never seen another guy be allowed to shoot the crazy shots he takes.

Justise: if he maxed out as Jerry Stackhouse or Wes Matthews - is that a bad thing?

KAT: I'm pretty worried about how he projects as a pro. Maybe a Patrick Ewing, Marcus Camby, or Pau Gasol? He's not quick like Anthony Davis or KG. I almost see him being a lot like Al Jefferson even though that's who most folks compare Okafor to). Do people see Tim Duncan in him? We just never really saw KAT dominate so it's tough to say what anyone will get out of him.

I'm extremely afraid of Stanley Johnson - surprised he doesn't have a higher bust factor. Guys like Derrick Williams and Marvin Williams come to mind. Maybe even CJ Leslie (that guy is still only 23 if you can believe it)! Jeff Green?


Regarding the review of Drummond - wow. A bit undervalued in that draft class He's an absolute beast in the NBA - like a Howard/Ben Wallace hybrid.

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ESPN New Projections for Boom/Bust

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