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OT: I Watched "When the Garden was Eden" Today
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TPercy
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6/13/2015  5:37 PM
I wasn't even born when the Knicks won their titles, so I found this video on ESPN very informational and interesting. If I can recall correctly, it was at first when their coach wiped the play book on his ass and said "this is what I thought of plays" and then put a major emphasis on team defense. It influenced all their key plays (Phil Jackson included!) and lead them to their first winning season and into the playoffs. Then unfortunately, but fortunately, some of their best players got injured, but it gave them a starting five(Clyde, Barnett, Bradley, Debusher(I forget how to spell his name sorry), Reed) that had a lot of chemistry, and had beautiful team play, which kicked them off to stardom for the next 9 years. That story when Reed was injured in the finals then came back was incredible as well. They also added some better and talented players also like Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas.

Another thing I found that was interesting was how quickly the media crucified Bradley when he wasn't exceeding the expectations they had for him. One day they were welcoming him with open arms, then the next day they were yelling abuse at him when he wasn't performing. So I guess New York was always a hard place to play in?

The Future is Bright!
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TPercy
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6/13/2015  5:41 PM
Do you think if Phil Jackson was somehow able to place a team emphasis culture where players would make sacrifices for each other and play great team defense it would take us back to stardom again?
The Future is Bright!
WaltLongmire
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6/14/2015  1:47 AM
I was a fan then, and remembered a lot of what happened.

Unfortunately, so few games were on TV back then- really sucked. You might have heard that the Reed entrance game WAS NOT televised in NYC- had to see it on tape delay.

The thing about their offense though, is that you had what was arguable the most intelligent team ever assembled in the NBA playing team ball- so you just had to wind them up and get out of the way.

No 3s at that time, although DeBusshere and Bradley would have hit some, but every guy in the starting 5 could hit a jumper

A Senator/Rhodes Scholar, a future doctor, coaches and GMs, announcers, a player/coach. Lucas was an author and wrote a book on memory. Bibby, and Dean Meminger, one a gunner, the other a classic PG.

Cazzie Russell, a fitness freak, Action Jackson who hung around Holtzman a lot and squeezed his brain for wisdom, Dave Stalworth who hit that famous shot on Chamberlain in the game Willis got hurt, and Earl who gave up his game to be a Knick.

Think DeBusschere got hurt in the second LA finals after we blew them out in game 1, and was not the same for the rest of the seriies, or we would have beaten them 3 times.

Willis' injury probably kept us from another title- so we easily could have had 4 titles back then.

I think Jackson has done the type of thing you are talking about when he was coaching.

D, to me, is all about awareness, desire, and pride. You had a lot of these things on those teams.

If he and Fisher can transform Anthony, so he buys into things, you might be able to get something done on D, and offense.

GS has done this, to some extent, as has Cleveland...at least on the defensive end.


Still tear up when I see the Reed entrance and hit his first shots, but the way they played to beat LA in game 5, the game Willis got hurt in also brings back feelings.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
Rosey
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6/14/2015  5:49 PM
I remember those teams very well. In fact, I was at the 1970 Eastern Conference Final against the Bucks when the beat Lew Alcindor to advance to the finals against the Lakers. Those teams didn't have great size but they were a good passing and jump shooting team and they were the best team defensive team in the league. On the 1973 team, the only non-shooters were Phil and Dean Meminger (who I knew some years later). You can tell by Phil's talk about team movement, passing and his focus on mid-range shots that he's influenced by those teams. Unfortunately, the game today has evolved differently and the rules have changed. Players come into the league at much younger ages and don't have the fundamentals and maturity - but there are more superior athletes. Hopefully, Phil can successfully blend elements of old and new. I just hope he's fully invested in the process. The draft and free agency should be interesting because nobody knows what he will do. He's a strong individual and very much his own man.
Rosey
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6/14/2015  6:02 PM
WaltLongmire,
Outside of the championships, my favorite Knick playoff moment was in the 1984 Conference Semi game against Bird and the Celtics. I was at the game when Bernard King went for over 40. The garden was crazy especially because everybody hated the Celtics. I remember some Celtic fans were parading around the upper section drunk with a banner. A Knick fan ran out of his seat to snatch the banner and started a fight. The Knicks won that game but ultimately lost the series up in Boston in the 7th game.
Maybe one day, they will get to that place again.
TPercy
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6/14/2015  6:38 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:I was a fan then, and remembered a lot of what happened.

Unfortunately, so few games were on TV back then- really sucked. You might have heard that the Reed entrance game WAS NOT televised in NYC- had to see it on tape delay.

The thing about their offense though, is that you had what was arguable the most intelligent team ever assembled in the NBA playing team ball- so you just had to wind them up and get out of the way.

No 3s at that time, although DeBusshere and Bradley would have hit some, but every guy in the starting 5 could hit a jumper

A Senator/Rhodes Scholar, a future doctor, coaches and GMs, announcers, a player/coach. Lucas was an author and wrote a book on memory. Bibby, and Dean Meminger, one a gunner, the other a classic PG.

Cazzie Russell, a fitness freak, Action Jackson who hung around Holtzman a lot and squeezed his brain for wisdom, Dave Stalworth who hit that famous shot on Chamberlain in the game Willis got hurt, and Earl who gave up his game to be a Knick.

Think DeBusschere got hurt in the second LA finals after we blew them out in game 1, and was not the same for the rest of the seriies, or we would have beaten them 3 times.

Willis' injury probably kept us from another title- so we easily could have had 4 titles back then.

I think Jackson has done the type of thing you are talking about when he was coaching.

D, to me, is all about awareness, desire, and pride. You had a lot of these things on those teams.

If he and Fisher can transform Anthony, so he buys into things, you might be able to get something done on D, and offense.

GS has done this, to some extent, as has Cleveland...at least on the defensive end.


Still tear up when I see the Reed entrance and hit his first shots, but the way they played to beat LA in game 5, the game Willis got hurt in also brings back feelings.

Yep the documentary said the same things you said in regards to how smart they were. Lucas was so smart he made his own language!
In regards to us building a team, I think we could do it. We need for Melo to buy in, and then add a couple of smart players who are willing to play the level of defense that our championship team played.

The Future is Bright!
WaltLongmire
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6/14/2015  11:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2015  11:21 PM
Rosey wrote:I remember those teams very well. In fact, I was at the 1970 Eastern Conference Final against the Bucks when the beat Lew Alcindor to advance to the finals against the Lakers. Those teams didn't have great size but they were a good passing and jump shooting team and they were the best team defensive team in the league. On the 1973 team, the only non-shooters were Phil and Dean Meminger (who I knew some years later). You can tell by Phil's talk about team movement, passing and his focus on mid-range shots that he's influenced by those teams. Unfortunately, the game today has evolved differently and the rules have changed. Players come into the league at much younger ages and don't have the fundamentals and maturity - but there are more superior athletes. Hopefully, Phil can successfully blend elements of old and new. I just hope he's fully invested in the process. The draft and free agency should be interesting because nobody knows what he will do. He's a strong individual and very much his own man.

Think what Alcindor could do with the new rules protecting him. Reed used to rough him up early on.

Tough life for Dean the Dream- son does some broadcasting, I think- looks a lot like him.

Remember Bill Russell as a broadcaster getting pissed off at Meminger because he was hitting some jumpers from the top of the key as Russell was commenting that they should just let him shoot from there. He was right, but he still hit them that day.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
WaltLongmire
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6/14/2015  11:23 PM
TPercy wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:I was a fan then, and remembered a lot of what happened.

Unfortunately, so few games were on TV back then- really sucked. You might have heard that the Reed entrance game WAS NOT televised in NYC- had to see it on tape delay.

The thing about their offense though, is that you had what was arguable the most intelligent team ever assembled in the NBA playing team ball- so you just had to wind them up and get out of the way.

No 3s at that time, although DeBusshere and Bradley would have hit some, but every guy in the starting 5 could hit a jumper

A Senator/Rhodes Scholar, a future doctor, coaches and GMs, announcers, a player/coach. Lucas was an author and wrote a book on memory. Bibby, and Dean Meminger, one a gunner, the other a classic PG.

Cazzie Russell, a fitness freak, Action Jackson who hung around Holtzman a lot and squeezed his brain for wisdom, Dave Stalworth who hit that famous shot on Chamberlain in the game Willis got hurt, and Earl who gave up his game to be a Knick.

Think DeBusschere got hurt in the second LA finals after we blew them out in game 1, and was not the same for the rest of the seriies, or we would have beaten them 3 times.

Willis' injury probably kept us from another title- so we easily could have had 4 titles back then.

I think Jackson has done the type of thing you are talking about when he was coaching.

D, to me, is all about awareness, desire, and pride. You had a lot of these things on those teams.

If he and Fisher can transform Anthony, so he buys into things, you might be able to get something done on D, and offense.

GS has done this, to some extent, as has Cleveland...at least on the defensive end.


Still tear up when I see the Reed entrance and hit his first shots, but the way they played to beat LA in game 5, the game Willis got hurt in also brings back feelings.

Yep the documentary said the same things you said in regards to how smart they were. Lucas was so smart he made his own language!
In regards to us building a team, I think we could do it. We need for Melo to buy in, and then add a couple of smart players who are willing to play the level of defense that our championship team played.


Those Russell led Celtic teams were also smart...not sure how many of them did as much outside of the sport, but I expect that some would surprise me.
EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
Nalod
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6/15/2015  11:14 AM
WaltLongmire wrote:
Rosey wrote:I remember those teams very well. In fact, I was at the 1970 Eastern Conference Final against the Bucks when the beat Lew Alcindor to advance to the finals against the Lakers. Those teams didn't have great size but they were a good passing and jump shooting team and they were the best team defensive team in the league. On the 1973 team, the only non-shooters were Phil and Dean Meminger (who I knew some years later). You can tell by Phil's talk about team movement, passing and his focus on mid-range shots that he's influenced by those teams. Unfortunately, the game today has evolved differently and the rules have changed. Players come into the league at much younger ages and don't have the fundamentals and maturity - but there are more superior athletes. Hopefully, Phil can successfully blend elements of old and new. I just hope he's fully invested in the process. The draft and free agency should be interesting because nobody knows what he will do. He's a strong individual and very much his own man.

Think what Alcindor could do with the new rules protecting him. Reed used to rough him up early on.

Tough life for Dean the Dream- son does some broadcasting, I think- looks a lot like him.

Remember Bill Russell as a broadcaster getting pissed off at Meminger because he was hitting some jumpers from the top of the key as Russell was commenting that they should just let him shoot from there. He was right, but he still hit them that day.

Bill Russell never succeeded off the court. He was player coach on the celts and I think made him the first black coach. He was revered for his incredible accomplishments but as a coach or GM in Seattle he did not fair well. On TV, he was ok but kind of goofy if I recall. KC jones was an ok coach who was seens as a guy that got out of the way and let his stars do it. Tommy Heinsmen was a fireball type coach and did well but he was perhaps too intense and not invovative. Cousey was with the kings for a while, with no real success of note. Don Nelson had the best post playing career. Ainge seems to be a good GM over the years.

Reed as coach and GM was largley Unremarkable. Debusschere was unremarkable as GM and was the briefly the commish of the ABA. Earl did some off broadway producing, Clyde did pretty good in realestate in the Caribean and broadcasting, Henry Bibby succeeded as a coach in college and assistant in pro's, nothign remarkable but had a long career. Bradley and Phil are well documented. Lucas has a crazy memory and can memorize phone books. Not so smart but its the abilty to recall the data read that is incredible.

On the court they did wonderful things. Its why I am a fan all these years later. I basically came of age and recall the 1971 season and later. between the knicks and Dr J coming to NY nets in 1974 there was always something good happening until 1977.

Rosey
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6/15/2015  11:41 AM
A lot of those old Knicks went into coaching and management - a tribute to their basketball smarts and maturity. As noted by Nalod, they had varying degrees of success. In addition to what was mentioned:
Dick Barnett earned PhD and taught sports management college courses.
Cazzie Russell did some small college coaching and is now an ordained minister.
John Warren is a financial accountant.
Dean Meminger did some minor league coaching but, unfortunately, got caught up with a cocaine addiction.
Remember, even before he joined the Knicks, DeBusschere was the player-coach of the Pistons while in his 20's.
OT: I Watched "When the Garden was Eden" Today

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