s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

In my opinion, the only legit two way player in this league was Towns. I thought Winslow was another option as far as being a legit two way player, but I didn't realize he was the same size as Shump, playing against PF's in college. He will have major problems on offense against SG's with enough lateral quickness to guard his drive and force him to be a jump shooter. The rest of the two way players all have risks on both sides. So Stein is the only one with a high rating on defense (probably the best in the draft), with soft hands like OK4 for alley oops and put backs. There are other options, but he seems like the safest pick to add some kind of value at the next level. Mudiay would be solid, but I don't trust him in Phil / Fisher's system.

blkexec wrote:

s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

In my opinion, the only legit two way player in this league was Towns. I thought Winslow was another option as far as being a legit two way player, but I didn't realize he was the same size as Shump, playing against PF's in college. He will have major problems on offense against SG's with enough lateral quickness to guard his drive and force him to be a jump shooter. The rest of the two way players all have risks on both sides. So Stein is the only one with a high rating on defense (probably the best in the draft), with soft hands like OK4 for alley oops and put backs. There are other options, but he seems like the safest pick to add some kind of value at the next level. Mudiay would be solid, but I don't trust him in Phil / Fisher's system.

Fair enough. If you think he is the best player at #4, I'm not going to disagree with that even if I feel differently (which I do but I'm no NBA scout or anything so I could be totally wrong too). I just don't agree with drafting based on need at #4 when we desperately need to come out of this draft with a young stud.

I like Winslow a lot and think even at Shump's height, his field good percentages improved enough throughout the year that I think he will become a good shooter in the league. Everything I've seen and read about him suggests that this guy is a gym rat that will improve upon his weaknesses and I feel like he showed that with his jumper over the course of the year.

s3231 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

In my opinion, the only legit two way player in this league was Towns. I thought Winslow was another option as far as being a legit two way player, but I didn't realize he was the same size as Shump, playing against PF's in college. He will have major problems on offense against SG's with enough lateral quickness to guard his drive and force him to be a jump shooter. The rest of the two way players all have risks on both sides. So Stein is the only one with a high rating on defense (probably the best in the draft), with soft hands like OK4 for alley oops and put backs. There are other options, but he seems like the safest pick to add some kind of value at the next level. Mudiay would be solid, but I don't trust him in Phil / Fisher's system.

Fair enough. If you think he is the best player at #4, I'm not going to disagree with that even if I feel differently (which I do but I'm no NBA scout or anything so I could be totally wrong too). I just don't agree with drafting based on need at #4 when we desperately need to come out of this draft with a young stud.

After doing a little thinking....I can see Mudiay, Winslow or Stein being selected at 4. I can also see Phil looking for a trading partner with whoever picks 6 or 7, using Mudiay as trade bait for additional picks, vets and pick 6 or 7, where either Winslow or Stein will be. I'm going back and forth on Winslow, but if you think about Charles Barkley, Green from GS, these guys are similar in height and build. Winslow is very solid, which allows him to play bigger guys on defense, and creates mis matches on offense. Winslow is a solid option, since it moves Melo to the PF spot, which is his best position as he enters his 30's. But that leaves a weakness at the center spot, even if we add Monroe. Melo and Monroe are not rim protectors.

See, regardless who we pick at 4, there's going to be a hole or two we need to fill. And do we really know Stein's potential on offense? Has he been the focal guy in Kentucky's offense? It's a calculated risk in taking anybody at 4. Mudiay is clearly the most talented pick. Maybe we just take him and see if teams that picked Winslow or Stein are willing to trade. Otherwise, hope Mudiay can develop under Fisher. I think thats probably the best way to go. I will still be a WCS fan regardless and hope he proves others wrong about his offensive potential.

blkexec wrote:It doesn't matter who we pick at 4....you have to build around their weaknesses. Melo is a scoring machine. The triangle is designed for efficient scoring. You simply surround him with additional scorers (which is easy to find in todays offensive players). Tyson Chandler is actually more offensively challenged than Stein, and he had no problem winning a ring. You can build a championship team in multiple ways, regardless who we select at 4....

This is the part that I think people seem to not understand. Great Defensive talent can be just as important as great Offensive talent. Phil has said over and over that he wants to build this team on defense and WCS is the best defensive talent in this draft.

The main benefit of WCS is not so much just Rim Protection. It's his ability to shut down PnR and handle quick players in space. His ability to help and recover is elite. All of this has a massive positive impact on the rest of the team defense. Everyone is made better because WCS closes the gaps and makes the zone everyone has to cover smaller and more effective.

What I think people don't realize is that WCS is not as far away from developing some offense as it might seem. He'll get more time to work on his skills and better instruction now. The offense UK ran was not really well suited to WCS strengths. I think the NBA game is more spaced out and will provide him with more scoring opps like it does for other athletic bigs with limited offense. Still WCS does have some basic offense he can improve on.
IMO he's got more ability than Lou Amundson and looks more fluid than Cole. WCS has a Jump Hook and a Mid Range Jumper he's developing. They don't look bad at all. With more touches and shot attempts I think he could gain proficiency.

WCS only avg'd 6 shots a game in 26 minutes at UK. I'm pretty sure he'll get more touches and shots than that. Lou Amundson avg'd 6 shots in 20 minutes with the Knicks. I'm pretty sure WCS will get more shots than that in this offense. Obviously he'll get some putbacks, alleyoops, fast break dunks but also a few mid range jump shots or face up drives against slower C's. I think we would expect more Give n Go and PnR looks with an athlete like WCS.

It's a business, and letting the team picking #5 simply HAVE Mudiay makes no sense at all. We need to get value with this pick. We just effing tanked the season to get it, so we better use it wisely.

Moonangie wrote:

s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

It would be like using our #4 pick to grab an improved version of Fishlips, who also did well as a defensive specialist in the NBA, even elite at times. But he was never anything like an all-star, and even if WCS reaches the level of all-star, he's a decidedly one-way player. Taking him over Mudiay would be the height of irresponsibility on the part of our front office, unless we trade down and garner another pick in the top 15-20.

Otherwise, take BPA at #4, which might be any of Mudiay, Russell, or OK4.

nixluva wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

It would be like using our #4 pick to grab an improved version of Fishlips, who also did well as a defensive specialist in the NBA, even elite at times. But he was never anything like an all-star, and even if WCS reaches the level of all-star, he's a decidedly one-way player. Taking him over Mudiay would be the height of irresponsibility on the part of our front office, unless we trade down and garner another pick in the top 15-20.

Otherwise, take BPA at #4, which might be any of Mudiay, Russell, or OK4.

WCS had one of the highest Box Plus Minus rankings in all of College Ball. WCS was a plus 14.7, despite not being the most skilled offensive player. just imagine if he does improve at all offensively. WCS is no worse than Tyson Chandler and he has a chance to be better. His offensive rating of about 120 is pretty good and his defensive rating of 80 is outstanding. His lack of offensive skill is totally outweighed by his impact on the team defensively.

Just curious, where was Winslow on the Box Plus a minus rankings? Would love to take a look at it if you have the link. The 14.7 is impressive but since he has been in college for 3 years, I think you also have to look at which guys are in that same range but are even younger than him.

s3231 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

s3231 wrote:I think the thing that scares so many fans (including me) about WCS is that he is so weak on the offensive end that even if he improves there, it is going to be extremely difficult for him to become average in that area.

At a pick as high as #4 and in a draft this strong, I think the hope is that you come away with someone that can be good on both sides of the floor. It's tough to win in this league at the highest level when one of your starters is a big liability on one end.

It would be like using our #4 pick to grab an improved version of Fishlips, who also did well as a defensive specialist in the NBA, even elite at times. But he was never anything like an all-star, and even if WCS reaches the level of all-star, he's a decidedly one-way player. Taking him over Mudiay would be the height of irresponsibility on the part of our front office, unless we trade down and garner another pick in the top 15-20.

Otherwise, take BPA at #4, which might be any of Mudiay, Russell, or OK4.

WCS had one of the highest Box Plus Minus rankings in all of College Ball. WCS was a plus 14.7, despite not being the most skilled offensive player. just imagine if he does improve at all offensively. WCS is no worse than Tyson Chandler and he has a chance to be better. His offensive rating of about 120 is pretty good and his defensive rating of 80 is outstanding. His lack of offensive skill is totally outweighed by his impact on the team defensively.

Just curious, where was Winslow on the Box Plus a minus rankings? Would love to take a look at it if you have the link. The 14.7 is impressive but since he has been in college for 3 years, I think you also have to look at which guys are in that same range but are even younger than him.