I'm going to stay with philly for one second .

I'm not sure what their free agency plan is but before they even get there they will add Joel embiid deangelo Russell and Dario saric to a team that has a defensive player of the year type in place one who is also capable of scoring 13-15 points and java lee McGee as well. this is supposed to be the worst team in the east. Whatever we do no matter what we will still have huge problems and I don't have to state them here. We are not trading for kg and Ray Allen in their prime with 6 guys in place already. If people from Jim Dolan to the basic fan doesn't let the proces play out a bit and we go after other aging veteran players and just give up on any younger building block player we are just setting up for another DECADE. As in 10 years of continued misfortune

Phil seems focused on adding quality Bigs to the team. IMO that is understandable given his last Lakers team had two top big men who gave them a defensive presence and offensive punch inside. This last season we didn't have quality big men but he still had big men on the team which I don't see him moving away from. I think Phil is going to go hard for bigs that can have an impact. The strength of this Free Agent market is at PF and C. There is plenty of Defense, Rebounding and scoring at the PF and C position in Free Agency.

Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
1   DeA. Jordan	  C   26  LAC  82  2820  21.0  .638  .007  .882  16.2  32.4  24.5  3.2   1.5  5.4  12.8  13.6  7.4  5.4  12.8  .217    4.3
5   M. Gasol	  C   30  MEM  81  2687  21.7  .558  .016  .410  4.9   21.8  13.4  19.7  1.4  4.0  12.2  24.6  5.5  4.7  10.2  .182    4.6
8   A. Baynes	  C   28  SAS  70  1122  15.9  .618  .012  .318  11.2  20.7  16.1  4.9   0.7  1.5  14.8  17.8  2.3  1.6  3.9   .166    0.3
13  A. Ajinca	  C   26  NOP  68  957   19.9  .595  .000  .301  12.4  25.0  18.7  8.2   1.2  4.0  15.6  21.1  1.9  1.2  3.2   .159    0.5
14  Brook Lopez	  C   26  BRK  72  2100  22.7  .558  .010  .278  11.5  17.1  14.3  4.5   1.1  4.8  8.6   26.3  4.7  2.2  7.0   .159    1.1
15  B. Biyombo	  C   22  CHO  64  1243  15.2  .578  .000  .941  13.7  22.6  18.0  2.0   0.7  6.3  16.5  11.6  1.8  2.2  4.0   .155    0.5
19  R. Lopez	  C   26  POR  59  1638  16.2  .574  .002  .291  12.7  13.1  12.9  5.1   0.5  3.7  12.9  15.5  3.2  1.9  5.1   .150    1.7
23  Enes Kanter	  C   22  TOT  75  2135  20.3  .564  .048  .252  14.6  20.5  17.6  4.8   0.9  1.1  12.3  24.7  4.3  2.1  6.4   .145   -0.1
32  Joel Freeland C   27  POR  48  617   12.2  .522  .000  .166  11.0  21.9  16.6  3.8   0.7  2.7  12.4  13.4  0.6  0.9  1.6   .122    0.0
34  Omer Asik	  C   28  NOP  76  1982  15.5  .545  .000  .546  14.0  28.8  21.4  5.4   0.8  2.1  15.7  14.0  2.8  2.2  5.0   .120    0.6
35  Kosta Koufos  C   25  MEM  81  1348  14.2  .530  .000  .237  10.3  25.8  18.1  4.3   1.1  3.9  14.9  15.8  0.8  2.5  3.3   .118    0.2
37  Cole Aldrich  C   26  NYK  61  976   18.1  .513  .000  .213  11.6  28.9  20.0  13.3  2.0  5.5  15.2  18.3  0.8  1.4  2.2   .107    0.7
Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
4   Bran. Wright  PF  27  TOT  75  1449	 20.4  .660  .008  .309  9.6   14.7  12.1  4.4   1.7  5.1  7.6   13.6  4.3  1.8  6.1   .202    2.0
7   P. Millsap	  PF  29  ATL  73  2390  20.1  .565  .232  .362  6.9   20.0  13.6  15.4  2.8  2.4  13.3  23.8  4.0  4.3  8.3   .167    3.7
9   L. Aldridge	  PF  29  POR  71  2512  22.8  .528  .074  .256  7.7   22.9  15.5  9.2   1.0  1.9  7.2   30.2  4.9  3.7  8.6   .165    1.4
10  K. Love	  PF  26  CLE  75  2532  18.8  .562  .412  .337  6.5   26.3  16.6  10.7  1.0  1.2  10.0  21.7  5.8  2.9  8.7   .165    2.5
17  G. Monroe	  PF  24  DET  69  2137  21.2  .549  .000  .394  11.2  25.1  17.9  11.7  1.9  1.3  13.0  23.9  4.0  2.8  6.8   .153    2.1
21  Tri Thompson  PF  23  CLE  82  2194  15.6  .580  .000  .508  14.5  19.7  17.2  2.7   0.8  2.2  12.2  14.0  4.7  2.1  6.8   .148    0.8
24  Jon. Jerebko  PF  27  TOT  75  1230  15.0  .549  .369  .174  8.0   17.2  12.5  9.0   1.9  1.1  9.7   16.2  2.0  1.4  3.5   .135    0.9
25  K. Middleton  PF  23  MIL  79  2378  15.6  .563  .308  .180  2.3   14.3  8.4   12.7  2.6  0.4  10.8  19.9  3.2  3.5  6.7   .135    2.0
27  Brandon Bass  PF  29  BOS  82  1929  16.3  .557  .047  .313  7.8   14.9  11.3  8.6   1.1  1.3  9.6   19.5  3.4  1.9  5.3   .132    0.7
29  Lavoy Allen   PF  25  IND  63  1070  14.9  .493  .000  .157  12.8  20.5  16.7  10.9  0.7  3.1  11.1  15.2  1.3  1.6  2.8   .127    0.8
30  Amir Johnson  PF  27  TOR  75  1979  15.4  .603  .089  .249  9.3   17.3  13.3  9.4   1.1  2.4  16.0  15.7  3.5  1.6  5.1   .124    1.9
Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
3   Kawhi Leonard SF  23  SAS  64  2033  22.0  .567  .234  .307  4.8   20.6  12.9  13.0  3.7  1.8  9.4   23.0  4.2  4.4  8.6   .204    4.1
12  Dray. Green	  SF  24  GSW  79  2490  16.4  .540  .430  .261  5.1   22.4  14.0  16.1  2.4  2.9  13.5  17.2  3.3  5.2  8.5   .163    4.4
16  D. Carroll	  SF  28  ATL  70  2189  15.9  .603  .466  .277  5.3   13.8  9.7   8.3   2.2  0.7  9.3   16.9  4.3  2.8  7.0   .154    2.7
28  Dorell Wright SF  29  POR  48  592   13.4  .525  .568  .221  2.6   17.2  10.0  10.2  1.7  1.3  7.9   17.1  0.7  0.8  1.6   .128    0.4
33  Tha Sefolosha SF  30  ATL  52  976   13.8  .506  .313  .233  6.4   19.3  13.1  11.2  2.8  1.8  12.2  14.6  0.8  1.7  2.5   .121    0.8
36  Jae Crowder   SF  24  TOT  82  1647  13.9  .517  .382  .259  4.7   14.9  9.7   8.6   2.2  1.2  7.5   17.5  1.9  2.0  3.9   .113    1.1
41  Tobias Harris SF  22  ORL  68  2369  16.7  .551  .252  .258  3.4   17.3  10.3  8.8   1.5  1.2  9.8   22.5  3.0  1.8  4.8   .098    1.0
Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
2   Jimmy Butler  SG  25  CHI  65  2513  21.3  .583  .212  .508  5.1   11.2  8.2   14.4  2.3  1.0  7.7   21.6  8.2  3.0  11.2  .214    4.2
11  Danny Green	  SG  27  SAS  81  2312  16.5  .596  .619  .172  2.7   13.9  8.4   10.3  2.2  2.8  10.5  17.5  4.0  3.9  7.8   .163    4.1
22  W. Matthews	  SG  28  POR  60  2024  16.1  .586  .592  .193  2.1   9.5   5.9   10.8  1.9  0.4  9.0   19.8  4.0  2.2  6.2   .147    3.0
26  Alexey Shved  SG  26  TOT  42  767   19.5  .541  .415  .448  3.3   11.7  7.3   25.7  2.0  0.6  10.7  26.3  1.7  0.5  2.2   .135    0.5
40  Mar Belinelli SG  28  SAS  62  1388  12.4  .553  .489  .211  2.2   10.5  6.4   10.3  1.1  0.2  10.6  18.8  1.5  1.4  2.9   .100    0.5
Rk  Player        Pos Age Tm   G   MP    PER   TS%   3PAr  FTr   ORB%  DRB%  TRB%  AST%  STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  OWS  DWS  WS   WS/48 ▾ VORP
20  C. Joseph	  PG  23  SAS  79  1444  15.5  .564  .107  .348  3.5   11.4  7.5   19.7  1.6  0.9  12.4  17.0  2.7  1.8  4.5   .149    1.0
31  Goran Dragic  PG  28  TOT  78  2640  17.4  .577  .258  .234  3.5   8.2   5.9   22.8  1.5  0.5  13.5  21.8  5.4  1.4  6.8   .123    2.1
38  Bran Knight	  PG  23  TOT  63  2035  17.1  .543  .361  .251  1.6   12.0  6.8   27.4  2.3  0.4  16.1  25.9  2.0  2.5  4.5   .106    1.6
39  Reg Jackson	  PG  24  TOT  77  2268  17.2  .511  .242  .219  2.6   12.9  7.8   34.8  1.4  0.3  14.6  24.6  3.3  1.7  4.9   .104    1.6

8 A. Baynes
13 A. Ajinca
15 B. Biyombo
19 R. Lopez
32 Joel Freeland
34 Omer Asik
35 Kosta Koufos
37 Cole Aldrich

4 Bran. Wright
7 P. Millsap
17 G. Monroe
24 Jon. Jerebko
27 Brandon Bass
29 Lavoy Allen
30 Amir Johnson

16 D. Carroll
28 Dorell Wright
33 Tha Sefolosha
36 Jae Crowder

11 Danny Green
26 Alexey Shved
40 Mar Belinelli

20 C. Joseph

I just don't see how you can build a playoff team from that, made even more difficult by the fact that everyone will be overpaid due to the impending cap increase. If we had won a top two pick then we had a good chance, but as it stands I think we're better off going for a complete rebuild over the next 4 years.

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Nixluva, I usually try and be optimistic, but I've removed the unrealistic players from your list- look at whats left:

8 A. Baynes
13 A. Ajinca
15 B. Biyombo
19 R. Lopez
32 Joel Freeland
34 Omer Asik
35 Kosta Koufos
37 Cole Aldrich

4 Bran. Wright
7 P. Millsap
17 G. Monroe
24 Jon. Jerebko
27 Brandon Bass
29 Lavoy Allen
30 Amir Johnson

16 D. Carroll
28 Dorell Wright
33 Tha Sefolosha
36 Jae Crowder

11 Danny Green
26 Alexey Shved
40 Mar Belinelli

20 C. Joseph

I just don't see how you can build a playoff team from that, made even more difficult by the fact that everyone will be overpaid due to the impending cap increase. If we had won a top two pick then we had a good chance, but as it stands I think we're better off going for a complete rebuild over the next 4 years.

The only problem is that you actually don't know who is gonna sign with the Knicks this summer. It may seem unrealistic but that doesn't mean it won't happen. People want to limit the Knicks options but really at this point we can't do that. We simply don't know what they're going to do and what Free Agents are gonna do. I'm leaving things wide open for now.

Also some of the player even on your subjective list are still improvements over what this team had and would make the team much more competitive. Add in the draft pick and we are talking about a much improved top 6 rotation. Remember that is the heart of most teams. People think you have to have 12 stars but that's not how teams are built. Phil needs to build a solid top 6 and from that point this team will be competitive. If you don't believe me go thru most NBA teams and look at the production of the top 6-8 players and see what you find. Now the top teams have quality thru the top 10 but we aren't expecting the Knicks to be that deep in this 1st year.

[/code]

Its not really a subjective list- I removed all the restricted FAs (which is realistic)- the only players I removed who there may be an outside chance of signing are: Gasol, Aldridge and Love, and of those three Gasol is pegged for Griz, Lakers or Spurs, Aldridge the Spurs or Mavs, and Love the Cavs or Lakers. I'd loved to be proved wrong, though. Even if we signed one of those, they are $18mil max players, so that only leaves you with $9mil to fill out the roster. Not having a pick next year absolutely screws us, because ideally you would have taken a step forward this season, missed the playoffs but ended with a lottery pick and more cap space to sign a big free agent next year.

smackeddog wrote:Nixluva, I usually try and be optimistic, but I've removed the unrealistic players from your list- look at whats left:

8 A. Baynes
13 A. Ajinca
15 B. Biyombo
19 R. Lopez
32 Joel Freeland
34 Omer Asik
35 Kosta Koufos
37 Cole Aldrich

4 Bran. Wright
7 P. Millsap
17 G. Monroe
24 Jon. Jerebko
27 Brandon Bass
29 Lavoy Allen
30 Amir Johnson

16 D. Carroll
28 Dorell Wright
33 Tha Sefolosha
36 Jae Crowder

11 Danny Green
26 Alexey Shved
40 Mar Belinelli

20 C. Joseph

I just don't see how you can build a playoff team from that, made even more difficult by the fact that everyone will be overpaid due to the impending cap increase. If we had won a top two pick then we had a good chance, but as it stands I think we're better off going for a complete rebuild over the next 4 years.

Totally agree about moving to full rebuild, but when you add Melo and Mudiay to the collection of talent among the names up there (with $28mm to spend) I think we most definitely put together a playoff team. In the East, a healthy Melo is a major step in that direction.

Nevertheless, I don't see us contending anytime in the next 3-5 years, so it makes more sense for the Knicks (and for Melo) to move on. The Lakers' #2 and Randle would be a solid start in that direction. They might do it to try to wring the Kobe era for all it's worth, and then have a superstar to build around.

In essence, we'd be swapping places with them vis-a-vis rebuild/superstar dichotomy. They may prefer a total rebuild post-Kobe, or maybe not. We might prefer one way or the other, too. I prefer rebuild. Not sure why Melo would be into that.

knicks1248 wrote:

Smack has the "worst case scenario"

Nix has the "I hope" scenario

Here's what i think, Phil has to do by any means.

1) If you can't get russel, oak or towns, trade down no further than 10, maybe use the trade exception with denver for faried or lawson (or both if you add THJ) and a pick next yr, i would throw in 2017 pick for a 2016th pick.

2)If you can't get gasol (fck aldridge) then concentrate on Reggie jack, and monroe

3)Resign Bargiani and shved.

Knicks priority

PG
Rebounder
leadership

somebody on deck in the event fisher doesn't improve drastically before christmas

that's a very realistic plan. I'd focus on trying to draft Stein or Kaminsky. target Monroe. I don't like Reggie Jackson. I'd focus my attention on Khris Middleton in RFA - I think Milwaukee may legitimately blink if you submitted a near max offer on Khris Middleton with MCW, Greek Freak and Jabari Parker already at the 1, 2, 3. And they have guys like Dudley, Mayo, Ennis on the roster, too.

2nd Fisher is not a bad coach. When he has more talent to work with you'll see that he's not the teams problem. Sure he had a lot to learn but that was expected in his 1st year. If he had a boatload of top talent and held them back then I could see knocking him but he didn't have that kind of situation. His team immediately looked better not from an increase in talent but actually a decrease, but a bunch of guys that gave a damn.

3rd Phil can improve this team without having to give up any picks. He's actually in a very good position even after dropping in the draft he's still not in a bad spot. He's still in a spot that has value. We'll see what he does with his pick and cap space but IMO he has some good options for putting together a competitive roster for the future.

4th I disagree that the Knicks priority is at PG. To be more specific, the biggest need is a Rim Protector/rebounder. Leadership is an intangible that you may develop from within.

nixluva wrote:1st off I don't have an "I Hope" scenario. My list merely shows the players available. It's not me suggesting we'll get Gasol and Jimmy Butler. I'm just showing the top rated players period.

2nd Fisher is not a bad coach. When he has more talent to work with you'll see that he's not the teams problem. Sure he had a lot to learn but that was expected in his 1st year. If he had a boatload of top talent and held them back then I could see knocking him but he didn't have that kind of situation. His team immediately looked better not from an increase in talent but actually a decrease, but a bunch of guys that gave a damn.

3rd Phil can improve this team without having to give up any picks. He's actually in a very good position even after dropping in the draft he's still not in a bad spot. He's still in a spot that has value. We'll see what he does with his pick and cap space but IMO he has some good options for putting together a competitive roster for the future.

4th I disagree that the Knicks priority is at PG. To be more specific, the biggest need is a Rim Protector/rebounder. Leadership is an intangible that you may develop from within.

Dude Fisher is a very young coach thats so far over his head, it makes me dizzy thinking about it. Don't mistake fisher for any first yr head coach with a talentless roster, don't compare him to "Jason (play maker sit down and enjoy the show)Kidd either. Fisher was a solid locker room leader on some very talent squads,with a lot of crazy egos. He was not the "put the ball in his hands and watch him run the show" player, so his quick transition from player to coaching, weighs little to no effect at all.

A little more talent will result in very little success for a young coach like fisher. The coaching staff he has around him are phils friends and guys who are familiar with a system no else is. There is less accountability among friends, which is why dolan kept IT around much longer then he should have.

Phil will improve the team slightly without trading a future pick.

You keep forgetting phils age, he thinks like a 70 yr old.

If you ever sit down and talk with a 70 yr old, you will come to realize that they have a much harder time excepting the way things are rapidly changing, and the more you get older, the more you wish certain things would go back to the way it use to be. His comments and tweets are solid proof, BASKETBALL GODS, AND TOO MANY 3'S, are you serious dude

Phil has to wake up and realize that unless your going to build a tailor made roster to fit that triangle (which means bringing in players who have played in the system or very close to it), fisher is a work in progress, you mind as well compare him to a prospect.

Yes phil does have some options, but they're not strong options, there is a major drop off in talent after the first 7 picks, and a major drop off in the FA pool, after the top 7 guys.

You keep saying Fisher needs talent, then think 2nd tier FA/draftees will cut it.

This is the off season to build your core and at least make the playoffs, next off season you fill in the holes with some solid role players and make a deep run.

The yr after that you should be contending for a title. 3 yrs, not 5

The look on Steve Mills Face on draft selection night was SO fckng priceless, he mind as well had a banner of his head the read " WTF WE CAN'T DO NOTHING RIGHT"

Vmart wrote:The true fallacy is thinking that the Knicks can't be good next year. I look at a team like Atlanta or Grizzlies. I didn't see real top notch talent there. It comes down to having good players and a style of play that players buy into. The Knicks have cap space 27million. They can use that to get good players. I think they can add 3-4 good players that can contribute to the team. that's all you need to change the culture of the team. It doesn't take much just the right type of players.

Yeah we have cap space but don't forget that we aren't the only team out there that has plenty of cap space to spend in free agency and some of the teams are big market teams like the Lakers and Celtics and then you have plenty of other teams and you also need to remember that a lot of these players will be re-signing with their original teams. Some fans are getting their hopes up like we're gonna come away with 2 or 3 of the bigger names out there and that's just not reality to think that way and the fans that are thinking that way are setting themselves up for disappointment.

smackeddog wrote:
I don't like the ageist stuff being thrown at Phil- it's a load of crap- people in their 70s aren't doddering old fools who shouldn't be listened to, people can contribute at any age. You could say people in their 20s and 30s think they're pushing something new, when in reality it's just recycled **** and they don't have the wisdom and experience to realize that.

I respect Phil... but I think it's fair as a fan to question his performance so far... and worse, his commitment to the job. Not showing up at the lottery was not a good look.

Also, the rumblings we've heard about Phil not liking the Isiah move make me worry that Phil and Dolan are not on the same page.

We've had so much management tumult during the Dolan era... I don't think you can blame fans for worrying that Phil is yet another NBA legend who will leave here in a cloud of controversy or whatever. Larry Brown, Isiah Thomas, Donnie Walsh, Mike D'Antoni, Mike Woodson, Jeff Van Gundy, Ernie Grunfeld... the list of great NBA names to cycle through the Garden under Dolan has been long and painful for most of them... and us...