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New York Knick Trade Exceptions
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fwk00
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5/21/2015  5:50 PM
After the lottery proceedings the other day, Steve Mills mentioned making use of the existing Trade Exceptions the Knicks have been stock-piling. The pundits, haters, and psycho-babble that followed in the wake of the draft results drowned out Mills' assertion.

It's an important one. Here's why - lots of teams are strapped for cash going into July's salary negotiations. Many of them have players they'd love to jettison without assuming responsibility for additional salary obligations. For the Knicks who have cap space and an appetite to acquire more picks, here's an opportunity to both improve the roster depth AND add a pick who could work his way onto the roster or become a Westchester prospect.

Let's examine a few potential Trade exception trades.

The Travis Outlaw exception remains a dormant asset from Jackson's initial trading flurry. It's a small one but might work in two plausible scenarios;

The TO exception for Atlanta's sg John Jenkins and pick # 50 OR for Orlando's sf Mo Harkless and pick #51.

A second small exception is the Pablo Prigioni exception. The PP exception could plausibly be applied to the acquisition of Phoenix's Reggie Bullock and pick #44.

Two larger exceptions can be reasonably exercised as well though they impact the Knicks cap space a bit more.

The Iman Shumpert exception could be offered to OKC for Jeremy Lamb and #14.

Finally, the JR Smith trade exception which is much larger could be offered to Minnesota for Chase Budinger and picks #31 and #36.

ALL of the acquired players are risky acquisitions, some more than others. Yet no evaluation of the effectiveness of Phil Jackson trades will be complete until these are factored in.

Given the fiscal state of many teams, the Knicks have great opportunity to call their own plays.

from: knicksmecca.blogspot.com

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mreinman
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5/21/2015  5:51 PM
stop spamming
so here is what phil is thinking ....
callmened
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5/21/2015  5:51 PM
can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance
Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
mreinman
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5/21/2015  5:53 PM
callmened wrote:can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Traded_Player_Exception

so here is what phil is thinking ....
callmened
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5/21/2015  5:58 PM
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Traded_Player_Exception

thanks.just looked that up after i read it. clever lil transactions. maybe phil knows what hes doing. lol

Knicks should be improved: win about 40 games and maybe sneak into the playoffs. Melo, Rose and even Noah will have some nice moments however this team should be about PORZINGUS. the sooner they make him the primary player, the better
fwk00
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5/21/2015  6:01 PM
mreinman wrote:stop spamming

I'm not spamming anymore than you are. My blog is not one of those featured in your links and quite frankly its a hell of a lot more interesting than some of the pizzing and moaning I read here and elsewhere. I include the link because I'm new to this forum and thought that someone might enjoy the ideas expressed there.

To the degree that I can, I'll add value-added comments when there's something intelligent to respond to.

fwk00
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5/21/2015  6:03 PM
callmened wrote:
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Traded_Player_Exception

thanks.just looked that up after i read it. clever lil transactions. maybe phil knows what hes doing. lol

Yes, you can play with them on ESPN's Trade Machine. Pick a player on another team and it may show a little trade exception box in the fellow's profile. To use an exception, click that little black box and it applies the exception.

nixluva
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5/21/2015  6:06 PM
Nice Job fwk00. I have talked in general about the fact that Phil has those Trade Exceptions. It's been poo poo'd around here but it is an asset that might be used. You laid out some pretty good examples of how that could happen. I addition some teams may not want their late picks which would only add to the cap. We could help by taking a player off their hands and a pick which they may not really want. It sounds crazy but these are actual possibilities. We're not saying that it will happen, but there is a chance a deal could be made.
fwk00
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5/21/2015  6:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  6:13 PM
nixluva wrote:Nice Job fwk00. I have talked in general about the fact that Phil has those Trade Exceptions. It's been poo poo'd around here but it is an asset that might be used. You laid out some pretty good examples of how that could happen. I addition some teams may not want their late picks which would only add to the cap. We could help by taking a player off their hands and a pick which they may not really want. It sounds crazy but these are actual possibilities. We're not saying that it will happen, but there is a chance a deal could be made.

Yeah, all the players I listed are albatrosses to the teams they are on. They either never lived up to their potential or fell out of favor. All of them could be a gem but must be treated as a money sink to their current teams and a wasted roster spot. Most of the teams listed need cash to pay their FAs more than albatrosses or lottery picks. Knicks are one of the very few teams who can go fishing in this pond.

WaltLongmire
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5/21/2015  6:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  6:26 PM
Wrote this while nixluvas post was put up...

fwk00 wrote:
callmened wrote:
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Traded_Player_Exception

thanks.just looked that up after i read it. clever lil transactions. maybe phil knows what hes doing. lol

Yes, you can play with them on ESPN's Trade Machine. Pick a player on another team and it may show a little trade exception box in the fellow's profile. To use an exception, click that little black box and it applies the exception.


If a team trades away a player with a higher salary than the player they acquire in return (the deal hereafter referred to as "Trade #1"), they receive a Traded Player Exception, also known as a "Trade Exception". Teams with a trade exception have up to a year in which they can acquire more salary in other trades (Trade #2, #3, etc.) than they send away, as long as the gulf in salaries for Trade #2, #3, etc. are less than or equal to the difference in salary for Trade #1. This exception is particularly useful when teams trade draft picks directly for a player; since draft picks have no salary value, often the only way to get salaries to match is to use a trade exception, which allows trades to be made despite unbalanced salaries. It is also useful to compensate teams for losing free agents, as they can do a sign and trade of that free agent to acquire a trade exception that can be used later. Note this exception is for single player trades only, though additional cash and draft picks can be part of the trade.

So we are taking on a player that another team might not want (and we do, I assume) and a draft pick, and giving them our trade exception.

Am I to assume that the other team would do this to get rid of a contract they don't want or cannot afford because it messes with their cap? Are they then able to use the trade exception from us in any way, or does it just "dissolve" immediately.

The Wikipedia article talks about using the trade exception along with a pick (which has no value) to get a player. In your examples we are using the trade exception as a virtual player, to match salaries.


In the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick. Am I also to assume that the Wikipedia article simply gives one example of how to use the exception, and that yours is also OK?n the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
nixluva
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5/21/2015  6:26 PM
fwk00 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Nice Job fwk00. I have talked in general about the fact that Phil has those Trade Exceptions. It's been poo poo'd around here but it is an asset that might be used. You laid out some pretty good examples of how that could happen. I addition some teams may not want their late picks which would only add to the cap. We could help by taking a player off their hands and a pick which they may not really want. It sounds crazy but these are actual possibilities. We're not saying that it will happen, but there is a chance a deal could be made.

Yeah, all the players I listed are albatrosses to the teams they are on. They either never lived up to their potential or fell out of favor. All of them could be a gem but must be treated as a money sink to their current teams and a wasted roster spot. Most of the teams listed need cash to pay their FAs more than albatrosses or lottery picks. Knicks are one of the very few teams who can go fishing in this pond.


Yeah the Knicks are taking the all of the above approach. Not just the traditional routes towards adding talent. This is just one of those means that people look down on but it's a legitimate way to add assets. If we could get a couple of picks out of it and a player who makes the rotation it would be well worth it.

When we got Shved I was one of the few who saw that it wasn't just a throw in to a deal. You have to see how Phil and his staff are looking for gems who are maybe in bad situations but could be polished up and shine in a new role here.

fwk00
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5/21/2015  6:34 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
callmened wrote:
mreinman wrote:
callmened wrote:can someone explain to me what a trade exception is? please excuse my ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Traded_Player_Exception

thanks.just looked that up after i read it. clever lil transactions. maybe phil knows what hes doing. lol

Yes, you can play with them on ESPN's Trade Machine. Pick a player on another team and it may show a little trade exception box in the fellow's profile. To use an exception, click that little black box and it applies the exception.


If a team trades away a player with a higher salary than the player they acquire in return (the deal hereafter referred to as "Trade #1"), they receive a Traded Player Exception, also known as a "Trade Exception". Teams with a trade exception have up to a year in which they can acquire more salary in other trades (Trade #2, #3, etc.) than they send away, as long as the gulf in salaries for Trade #2, #3, etc. are less than or equal to the difference in salary for Trade #1. This exception is particularly useful when teams trade draft picks directly for a player; since draft picks have no salary value, often the only way to get salaries to match is to use a trade exception, which allows trades to be made despite unbalanced salaries. It is also useful to compensate teams for losing free agents, as they can do a sign and trade of that free agent to acquire a trade exception that can be used later. Note this exception is for single player trades only, though additional cash and draft picks can be part of the trade.

So we are taking on a player that another team might not want (and we do, I assume) and a draft pick, and giving them our trade exception.

Am I to assume that the other team would do this to get rid of a contract they don't want or cannot afford because it messes with their cap? Are they then able to use the trade exception from us in any way, or does it just "dissolve" immediately.

The Wikipedia article talks about using the trade exception along with a pick (which has no value) to get a player. In your examples we are using the trade exception as a virtual player, to match salaries.


In the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick. Am I also to assume that the Wikipedia article simply gives one example of how to use the exception, and that yours is also OK?n the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick.

My examples are just Captain Obvious kinds of exchanges. All of these players have no future where they are and may have no future in the NBA so to the teams who pay these guys, yes they're just costing money, tying up cap space, maybe costing luxury tax, and bottling up a roster spot. Likely, all have been trade bait for a while with no plausible deals offered. So to get rid of all that, yes, the Knicks could ask for a pick this year or a future pick.

For the Knicks its buyer beware but like the Shved deal, one or two of these guys might shine here.

The team getting the exception owns it and doesn't have to use it. They may want the money to evaporate.

I THINK that trade exceptions cannot be mixed in player for player deals - I think only picks can be acquired and not added to the exception - not sure on this last bit.

CrushAlot
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5/21/2015  8:13 PM
fwk00 wrote:
After the lottery proceedings the other day, Steve Mills mentioned making use of the existing Trade Exceptions the Knicks have been stock-piling. The pundits, haters, and psycho-babble that followed in the wake of the draft results drowned out Mills' assertion.

It's an important one. Here's why - lots of teams are strapped for cash going into July's salary negotiations. Many of them have players they'd love to jettison without assuming responsibility for additional salary obligations. For the Knicks who have cap space and an appetite to acquire more picks, here's an opportunity to both improve the roster depth AND add a pick who could work his way onto the roster or become a Westchester prospect.

Let's examine a few potential Trade exception trades.

The Travis Outlaw exception remains a dormant asset from Jackson's initial trading flurry. It's a small one but might work in two plausible scenarios;

The TO exception for Atlanta's sg John Jenkins and pick # 50 OR for Orlando's sf Mo Harkless and pick #51.

A second small exception is the Pablo Prigioni exception. The PP exception could plausibly be applied to the acquisition of Phoenix's Reggie Bullock and pick #44.

Two larger exceptions can be reasonably exercised as well though they impact the Knicks cap space a bit more.

The Iman Shumpert exception could be offered to OKC for Jeremy Lamb and #14.

Finally, the JR Smith trade exception which is much larger could be offered to Minnesota for Chase Budinger and picks #31 and #36.

ALL of the acquired players are risky acquisitions, some more than others. Yet no evaluation of the effectiveness of Phil Jackson trades will be complete until these are factored in.

Given the fiscal state of many teams, the Knicks have great opportunity to call their own plays.

from: knicksmecca.blogspot.com

You might want to ask Martin and Andrew to add your blog. They ask for suggestions here:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/forum.asp?f=5
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
fwk00
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5/21/2015  8:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  8:38 PM
Thanks. I post the content because posters in China and other countries can't access the blog itself ( I moved over from Elba).
Knicks1969
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5/22/2015  2:27 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:.... In your examples we are using the trade exception as a virtual player, to match salaries.


In the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick. Am I also to assume that the Wikipedia article simply gives one example of how to use the exception, and that yours is also OK?n the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick.

Longmire brings up a very good point.

IIRC, the current CBA ( and all previous CBAs covering the trade exception situation) require that an actual "tangible" asset be moved in a legitimate NBA sanctioned trade.

IIRC, this has more to do with the bylaws concerning trades period than the trade exceptions, but the trade exceptions situation will fall under the trading provisions in the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

The Knicks would have to send out a player under contract and on their 15 man roster ( he can be a minimum salary non guaranteed contract guy, which would be ideal) or a pick, but it has to be something tangible.

And I believe the Knicks can't just sign a guy off the street, then immediately trade him with the exception. I have to look a bit harder at the CBA tonight, but how the article above lists the potential trades doesn't look actually feasible.

From a practical standpoint, with the cap going up and more teams with more cap flexibility, a lot of teams would have better options to move salary off their books than moving a "semi bad contract" plus a pick. Sadly those days are over, giving up a pick to move an undesirable and his contract off the roster. I think you still do some trades as such happen occasionally, but often they are panned by the analysts because it's not seen as the most effective use of resources, nor the best option possible.

A draft pick, does, across the league, have an associated informal "dollar value", and as picks are cost controlled until 2020, that valuation is constantly rising because while the cost of draftees is stable, the rest of personnel costs are facing a very sudden jump very soon.

From the Knicks standpoint, they have very few guys under contract for next year. The mechanisms to make the kind of trade as such might require a timeline of player acquisition that would require the Knicks to actually make a trade to pick up those kind of disposable assets in the first place to made the kind of trade in that article. And that's even assuming that trade scenario is the best overall option for said non Knicks team compared to what the other 30 teams could offer in some other variable deal.


I would trade none other then Calderon. He is a great candidate, we don't need to look too far
Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
RonRon
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5/22/2015  2:54 PM
Anyone know for sure, if a trade was made on DRAFT NIGHT, which salary would we be baising it trade on, last season's salary or this upcoming salary?
Especially if we decide to trade our pick in the process which we CAN NOT actually trade the pick but could trade the player drafted as we traded next years 1st rounder already...
nixluva
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5/22/2015  4:38 PM
In general the Knicks have the ability to make deals that would help other teams cap situation and give them an asset in the form of a Trade Exception. The Knicks can get a pick in that sort of deal.

Trade exceptions are not traded from one team to another. Sometimes it appears like this is happening when one team uses a trade exception to acquire salary without sending salary away, and the other team gains a trade exception in the same process because they sent away salary without receiving salary in return. However, the trade exception the first team uses and the trade exception the second team gains are two distinct exceptions.

They can also come from an unbalanced trade – While many think of trade exceptions as stemming from transactions where one player gets sent into another team’s cap or exception, they can also be created in trades with different salaried pieces going from one place to another. In those cases, the team trading away a higher salary than they receive secures a trade exception in the amount of the difference as long as they are not under the cap. (This is how the Knicks got a trade exception the size of Raymond Felton’s contract in their recent trade with the Mavericks.)

Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: Team A is a taxpaying team with a $4 million trade exception from a previous trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Team B has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and the two teams want to complete a three-for-one trade with these players. This trade is legal -- the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12.6 million), and the $4 million player fits within the $4 million trade exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous, non-simultaneous trade, so Team A is left trading its $10 million player for Team B's $5 million and $7 million players in a separate, simultaneous trade. From Team B's perspective there is also a simultaneous and a non-simultaneous trade -- it aggregates its $4 million and $5 million players to acquire Team A's $10 million player in a simultaneous trade, and it sends the $7 million player to Team A for "nothing" in a separate, non-simultaneous trade, thereby receiving a $7 million trade exception.

It's a complicated process, but each team has a different view on how it executes the trade but the numbers match up properly from each teams perspective.


Team A's Perspective Team B
Player 1 $10 Mil Player 1 $7 Mil
Player 2 $5 Mil

TPE $4 Mil Player 3 $4 Mil

Team B's Perspective
Player 2 $5 Mil Player 1 $10 Mil
Player 3 $4 Mil

Player 1 $7 Mil Traded for nothing = Team B gets $7 Mil TPE

Exceptions *

Mid-Level Exception: $5,464,000 (in July)
Bi-Annual Exception: $2,139,000 (in July)
Trade Exception (Raymond Felton, expiring 6/25/15) — $3,637,073
Trade Exception (Travis Outlaw, expiring 10/27/15) — $1,863,840
Trade Exception (J.R. Smith, expiring 1/5/16) — $5,982,375
Trade Exception (Iman Shumpert, expiring 1/5/16) — $2,616,975
Room: $2,814,000 (in July)
* Room Exception only available if other exceptions renounced.

Free Agents

Bird: Andrea Bargnani, Alexey Shved (restricted*), Quincy Acy (restricted*)
Early Bird: Cole Aldrich
Limited Bird: Shane Larkin
Non-Bird: Lou Amundson, Lance Thomas, Jason Smith, Travis Wear (restricted*), Baron Davis**, Mike Bibby**
* Players are only restricted if the team gives a qualifying offer.
** Cannot be used in a sign and trade because they were not active players in the NBA last season.


http://www.basketballinsiders.com/new-york-knicks-team-salary/
JesseDark
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5/22/2015  5:28 PM
Wouldn't a second high 1st round pick get over the hurt of missing out Ok4 and KAT?

The Iman Shumpert exception could be offered to OKC for Jeremy Lamb and #14.

Bring back dee-fense
VCoug
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5/22/2015  5:31 PM
JesseDark wrote:Wouldn't a second high 1st round pick get over the hurt of missing out Ok4 and KAT?

The Iman Shumpert exception could be offered to OKC for Jeremy Lamb and #14.

We could offer it, but OKC would laugh at us and hang up the phone.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
VCoug
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5/22/2015  5:36 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:.... In your examples we are using the trade exception as a virtual player, to match salaries.


In the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick. Am I also to assume that the Wikipedia article simply gives one example of how to use the exception, and that yours is also OK?n the examples you give, we are always trading for a player and a pick.

Longmire brings up a very good point.

IIRC, the current CBA ( and all previous CBAs covering the trade exception situation) require that an actual "tangible" asset be moved in a legitimate NBA sanctioned trade.

IIRC, this has more to do with the bylaws concerning trades period than the trade exceptions, but the trade exceptions situation will fall under the trading provisions in the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

The Knicks would have to send out a player under contract and on their 15 man roster ( he can be a minimum salary non guaranteed contract guy, which would be ideal) or a pick, but it has to be something tangible.

And I believe the Knicks can't just sign a guy off the street, then immediately trade him with the exception. I have to look a bit harder at the CBA tonight, but how the article above lists the potential trades doesn't look actually feasible.

From a practical standpoint, with the cap going up and more teams with more cap flexibility, a lot of teams would have better options to move salary off their books than moving a "semi bad contract" plus a pick. Sadly those days are over, giving up a pick to move an undesirable and his contract off the roster. I think you still do some trades as such happen occasionally, but often they are panned by the analysts because it's not seen as the most effective use of resources, nor the best option possible.

A draft pick, does, across the league, have an associated informal "dollar value", and as picks are cost controlled until 2020, that valuation is constantly rising because while the cost of draftees is stable, the rest of personnel costs are facing a very sudden jump very soon.

From the Knicks standpoint, they have very few guys under contract for next year. The mechanisms to make the kind of trade as such might require a timeline of player acquisition that would require the Knicks to actually make a trade to pick up those kind of disposable assets in the first place to made the kind of trade in that article. And that's even assuming that trade scenario is the best overall option for said non Knicks team compared to what the other 30 teams could offer in some other variable deal.

That's incorrect. We're actually not allowed to send anything out with a trade exception, it has to be buy itself. We would have to bring salary back in a trade. Also, we lose our exceptions as soon as we're under the cap.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
New York Knick Trade Exceptions

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