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The case for Willie Cauley-Stein
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smackeddog
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5/21/2015  1:29 PM
Not the exciting upside pick at all- heck, I don't even know if I'd like to draft him, but I think we should aim to have threads stating the case for each of the main possible draft options.

What I like about WCS is his potential defensive impact- among the many, many things I have hated watching this past decade, one of the worst has been our horrific defense- our ability to turn scrubs into gold, to bestow a career night on some unknown every damn game. Our complete inability to stop the pick and roll. Maybe WCS can help us put a stop to that.

Also in his favor is that there are few defensive options at C in free agency. Money is short and options are few- likely you'd have to pay over $10mil to get even an Asik. Draft WCS and you have a nice defensive center at $4mil.

Furthermore, if you draft him, there are more PF options that compliment him (albeit they are long shots)- Aldridge and Love could play next to him and he'd help wipe out their defensive shortcomings. Alternatively you could sign Carroll and say, Beverley, and suddenly our defense is on an upward swing.

Remember how excited we were about him earlier this season? Seems like everyone has forgotten that. Ainge and Bird seem to rate him highly too. From draft Express:

May 13, 2015
-Willie Cauley-Stein: The Kentucky center measured 6'11.25 without shoes with a 7'3 wingspan and a 242 pound frame. His 6.3% body fat is very low for a big man and his standing reach ranks 5th among the players measured here. Cauley-Stein isn't as historically large as Upshaw, but his measurements aren't far off those of Chris Bosh who measured 6'10.25 with a 7'3.5 wingspan and a 225-pound frame coming out of Georgia Tech. Cauley-Stein measured a little longer than he had in the past, and that, combined with his terrific agility, instincts and anticipation skills make it very easy to see him developing into a defensive stopper in the NBA.

http://www.draftexpress.com/#ixzz3anLIOHbF


Case against him is fair though- his stats are poor (though if he's blamed for bringing down Towns stats, then the reverse could also be true), and he could end up being the next Jared Jeffries. Also it's not really a pick to get excited about. It's like winning $500,000 and spending it on re-strengthening the foundations of your house.
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BigDaddyG
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5/21/2015  1:47 PM
Anything is better than having to trot out Dalembert, Cole and Bargs at Center each night. I could also see him fitting in next to Greg Monroe and Melo next season. I also like the fact that he's developing a short range J. Upside is the main issue with him. The Celtics are interested in him so maybe we can bleed out some lower and future draft picks from them.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
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5/21/2015  1:55 PM
For a pick that high Id like to draft someone who can be a real threat on offense on his own. That's why Okafor and Towns would have been a good pick either way.
Bonn1997
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5/21/2015  2:05 PM
Couldn't we have just kept Dalembert and not tanked then?!
nixluva
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5/21/2015  2:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  2:08 PM
I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.
mreinman
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5/21/2015  2:09 PM
yeah good job bud

I would be okay with this pick.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
jskinny35
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5/21/2015  2:09 PM
While I was disappointed with the lottery like the rest of us, I think he would be a good fit (given we're keeping Melo). He's Tyson, except younger, cheaper and has some potential to develop an outside shot. It allows us to use money toward the backcourt or for a PF (Monroe). If we can trade down with a Denver and pick up a player or future pick - all the better. We need defense desperately - who's a better defensive big? He seems to have NBA level athleticism. I'm fine with Winslow and anybody else with a defensive focus, but would steer clear of non-defensive players due to our roster and past. Everybody past 2 or 3 has flaws - so I'd rather bank on a defensive big learning how to shoot a short-range J, vs a PG that needs to learn to shoot and maybe doesn't offer the defense we need.
BRIGGS
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5/21/2015  2:11 PM
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?

RIP Crushalot😞
fishmike
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5/21/2015  2:14 PM
my concerns are he doesnt love BB and hasnt improved at all (on the court) offensively. He doesnt seem driven to embrace the game, rather he plays because he's good at it. Its like me at my job. Im really good at it and it pays well, but there is no passion for me, and that means Im not going to burn the midnight lamp to get better. I think this is the case w/ WCS. This is my worry
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
mreinman
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5/21/2015  2:14 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?

the triangle is from 20 years ago.

Bogut? Please.

why not more like Noah? Camby? Dwight (he can't shoot a lick - WCS has a lot better touch than him)?

Defense will always be important and you can always have 1 defensive big and 5 wings

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Knixkik
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5/21/2015  2:18 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?


That is a very good point. Perimeter defense is more of a concern for the future. Teams win today hitting a ton of threes. We don't need exceptional post defense as long as we have great rebounding. Another reason Monroe is a solid option. A lot of people overemphasis that he is a poor defender, but the fact is he's an average post defender, is still young enough to improve, and is an exceptional rebounder. We were a poor rebounding team last year. We need a guy who averages 10 rebounds per game and another who gets 7-8 per game. Even if they aren't the greatest defenders, that's ok. Our improved perimeter defenders will force tough shots, and our interior guys will clean up the boards and we will be fine.
nixluva
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5/21/2015  2:20 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?


I disagree strongly. For one thing WCS would not be the only big we have on the floor. He would be used as the help defender more than being stuck on the other teams C. You're thinking too rigidly. Stein can guard literally any position on the floor. There would be no reason to use him to guard low value threats. Just remember how GS defended the Grizz. They used Bogut on Tony Allen and let Bogut help defend. They didn't waste him guarding a big. This allowed Bogut to roam off his man. Well Stein is faster and has FAR more range than Bogut. He can help slow down PnR and still help in the post. He can cover that much ground very quickly. We haven't see a man this tall with this level of quickness. WCS is exactly the kind of big you'd want to defend today's offenses.
SupremeCommander
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5/21/2015  2:21 PM
if what ends up happening is that the Knicks gave up Chandler for peanuts only to draft WCS I am going to snap
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
BRIGGS
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5/21/2015  2:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  2:47 PM
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?

the triangle is from 20 years ago.

Bogut? Please.

why not more like Noah? Camby? Dwight (he can't shoot a lick - WCS has a lot better touch than him)?

Defense will always be important and you can always have 1 defensive big and 5 wings

If you want a good big man in the modern NBA go grab a pick around 24 and take Jordan Mickey who will surpass WCS in every phase of the game. I think the Knicks need to play it safe with Mudiay now--just play it safe. A guy who runs the show who can make plays for others athletically make players around him better a very smart basketball player who controls pace has the size to disrupt the other PG--thats the safe pick. Anything else is questionable. Mickey is a better shot blocker than WCS he also can get out on 2-3-4s much better which in this NBA is more important . On top of that he can score(hes got potential as a mobile 4) and handle--hes got significant upside and anyone drafting got a nice display of his skills in Chicago.

You can really put Mickey on 2-3-4 and he can help protect the rim. His value in the 20's is high for what he can potentially bring. Hes a lottery athlete. In Chicago he altered or blocked like 20 shots in 2 games.

RIP Crushalot😞
mreinman
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5/21/2015  2:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2015  2:31 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?

the triangle is from 20 years ago.

Bogut? Please.

why not more like Noah? Camby? Dwight (he can't shoot a lick - WCS has a lot better touch than him)?

Defense will always be important and you can always have 1 defensive big and 5 wings

If you want a good big man in the modern NBA go grab a pick around 24 and take Jordan Mickey who will surpass WCS in every phase of the game. I think the Knicks need to play it safe with Mudiay now--just play it safe. A guy who runs the show who can make plays for others athletically make players around him better a very smart basketball player who controls pace has the size to disrupt the other PG--thats the safe pick. Anything else is questionable. Mickey is a better shot blocker than WCS he also can get out on 2-3-4s much better which in this NBA is more important . On top of that he can score(hes got potential as a mobile 4) and handle--hes got significant upside and anyone drafting got a nice display of his skills in Chicago.

you said that WCS would be a top defender in the nba out of the gate, no?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
JrZyHuStLa
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5/21/2015  2:30 PM
You don't draft a guy who has 0 offensive game after being at a top college program for three years with the 4th pick.

This pick still offers franchise altering capabilities.

Stein is not the answer.
nixluva
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5/21/2015  2:33 PM
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
nixluva wrote:I was thinking of creating a thread on WCS as well. Good job.

I will say this about the idea of drafting him. He's a weapon if your intention is to build an elite defense. What Stein can do in the NBA is cover ground and shut down PnR which is a HUGE plus in the NBA right now. You can do a lot with a very rangy big who can protect the paint. I can understand Phil wanting this guy in the middle of his defense despite not having great offense, he's not as bad as some are making him out to be. Stein actually has some limited offensive ability. I think he can be put to use in the Triangle. Phil has had non scoring bigs before. I think he's a bit more useful than Tyson on offense. The plus is that he covers so much ground on D that it makes everyone else better and the Knicks need that.

Phil has made it clear he wants to build a much better defensive team and there are very few options for him to be able to do that. He can find scoring but legit elite defenders like WCS would be much harder to get. I could live with the pick if it came to that. I would guess that there would likely be a trade involved. I'm not sure Phil would take Stein at 4, but if he did I could live with the pick. I think it's a tough sell but once he was here and doing his thing people would realize why Phil went that way.

Maybe 20 years ago. There is a place for Willie Stein but his defensive value in the modern NBA is limited with teams taking 25 3's a game. Lets go to GS for example--his man would be Andrew Bogut--now what would his value be there? Stop Bogut from scoring 8 points to 6?

the triangle is from 20 years ago.

Bogut? Please.

why not more like Noah? Camby? Dwight (he can't shoot a lick - WCS has a lot better touch than him)?

Defense will always be important and you can always have 1 defensive big and 5 wings


EXACTLY!!! Wait... What? Did we just agree on something?
BRIGGS
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5/21/2015  2:38 PM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:You don't draft a guy who has 0 offensive game after being at a top college program for three years with the 4th pick.

This pick still offers franchise altering capabilities.

Stein is not the answer.

+1

RIP Crushalot😞
mreinman
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5/21/2015  2:39 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:You don't draft a guy who has 0 offensive game after being at a top college program for three years with the 4th pick.

This pick still offers franchise altering capabilities.

Stein is not the answer.

+1

but D Jordan is a super max?

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Vmart
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5/21/2015  2:43 PM
Pass, not a WCS fan. Brings nothing to the table as Briggs said in today's NBA centers can be found anywhere need space cloggers and rebounders you really want to spend a top 4 on WCS you could get them on the cheap in the Second round. Just go get Jerome Jordan to play center. He would give the same as WCS.
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