gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

was not that cheap, we just got lucky that he retired after year 1 of 3.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

like who? Name the player. Who was this vet we needed that we didnt sign. Show me.

BTW Phil tried to get Elton Brand last year and he took $2mm vs. $1.2 from Atl vs. the Knicks.

Whos the player he missed out on Bonn? (as Ive established he did try to get Brand who went for more money)

I have no way of knowing who was available through trades and haven't looked at the FA list in a while. I am judging the roster, not pretending to know who was available. I never said that the remaining 46 months of his contract were certain to be as bad as the first 14.
Note that we can say lots of vets were available who helped other teams but they're mostly vets we gave up ironically (Tyson, Smith, etc.)

so you have zero knowledge and zero insight into this, but are qualified to label Phil as incapable. Good to know.

For the record I do hope Phil is able to add a couple guys who can help balance the youth movement as well. It seems if Elton Brand gets the same call he got last year from Phil he may accept.

We know he turned down Kenyon Martin and Lamar Odom. Perhaps an act by omission can be used to characterize Phil's capabilities.

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

like who? Name the player. Who was this vet we needed that we didnt sign. Show me.

BTW Phil tried to get Elton Brand last year and he took $2mm vs. $1.2 from Atl vs. the Knicks.

Whos the player he missed out on Bonn? (as Ive established he did try to get Brand who went for more money)

I have no way of knowing who was available through trades and haven't looked at the FA list in a while. I am judging the roster, not pretending to know who was available. I never said that the remaining 46 months of his contract were certain to be as bad as the first 14.
Note that we can say lots of vets were available who helped other teams but they're mostly vets we gave up ironically (Tyson, Smith, etc.)

so you have zero knowledge and zero insight into this, but are qualified to label Phil as incapable. Good to know.

For the record I do hope Phil is able to add a couple guys who can help balance the youth movement as well. It seems if Elton Brand gets the same call he got last year from Phil he may accept.

I did not label him as incapable as a person or GM. I said he did not add any useful veterans, which is self-evident
We all have zero knowledge of who was available. Some here just don't even realize their lack of knowledge on that.

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

was not that cheap, we just got lucky that he retired after year 1 of 3.

True but it's like old we gave him the full MLE. He was worth 3mil per and no way was he going to play out the 3yrs. I certainly wasnt concerned about his contract especially considering the effect he had on the team

I think that in retrospect, it was a bad signing.

1. he crashed the team after the first part of the year
2. who says he would have retired
3. how was it good? cause we won regular season games before he hit a cement wall? This is like saying that Amare was a good signing because he was an mvp candidate for .5 of season 1.

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

was not that cheap, we just got lucky that he retired after year 1 of 3.

yeah, and that last two months of shooting was absolutely golden too. Great thing to watch. Leading by airballs and painful bricks that made Oakley look like Steph Curry.
Too bad he didn't retire a few months earlier. Then that would have been a truly great deal.

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

This post is a case in point of how someone takes a myopic view of past events to further their agenda. The moves made during 2012 - 2013 including the signing of Kidd were what got the Knicks ultimately into deeper longer term trouble. But don't let that get in the way of your bash Phil agenda.......here's a look at all the Gem moves you wish Phil could have made......

Signed Jason Kidd to a 3 year 9 Million dollar contract - he played on year

Sign & Traded for Camby ($4 mil plus over 3 years) giving up 2 2nd round picks and players - he played in only a few games as a Knick - complete flop

Put an inept Chris Smith on the Roster to appease and resign JR - it did not work out with Chris, and JR was extremely effective for one year and then a distraction thereafter

Let Jeremy Lin go and instead traded a 2nd round pick and other players for Ray Felton - who was effective for 1 year then had domestic abuse and gun troubles and was inneffective thereafter..........and Kurt Thomas who only played one effective year for the Knicks after that

Exercised the option on Shumpert who remained injury plagued and ineffective as a Knick

Signed Rasheed Wallace who was effective as a Knick for approximately 1/4 of a season

Signed Ronnie Brewer who was generally ineffective as a Knick

Signed a really old Prigioni to a 3 year contract to basically be a 3rd sting PG

Signed Kenyon Martin - ineffective

Signed Jeremy Tyler - ineffective

Signed Beno Udrih - ineffective

Signed MWP - ineffective

Drafted THJ - uneven/spotty play - not sure about future with Knicks

Why don't you ask me what moves I would support instead of assuming you know? Look at all that wasted effort on your part.

All posts on fan message boards are essentially time wasted that can be used more productively. So essentially we are all "wasting" time & efforts here.

Your question is interesting, considering that Fish asked you to name moves you would support and you passed. Then I pointed out the littany of bad moves that were made previous to Phil - and you passed on that as well. So basically you've offered nothing to back up your point when questioned by multiple posters.

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

This post is a case in point of how someone takes a myopic view of past events to further their agenda. The moves made during 2012 - 2013 including the signing of Kidd were what got the Knicks ultimately into deeper longer term trouble. But don't let that get in the way of your bash Phil agenda.......here's a look at all the Gem moves you wish Phil could have made......

Signed Jason Kidd to a 3 year 9 Million dollar contract - he played on year

Sign & Traded for Camby ($4 mil plus over 3 years) giving up 2 2nd round picks and players - he played in only a few games as a Knick - complete flop

Put an inept Chris Smith on the Roster to appease and resign JR - it did not work out with Chris, and JR was extremely effective for one year and then a distraction thereafter

Let Jeremy Lin go and instead traded a 2nd round pick and other players for Ray Felton - who was effective for 1 year then had domestic abuse and gun troubles and was inneffective thereafter..........and Kurt Thomas who only played one effective year for the Knicks after that

Exercised the option on Shumpert who remained injury plagued and ineffective as a Knick

Signed Rasheed Wallace who was effective as a Knick for approximately 1/4 of a season

Signed Ronnie Brewer who was generally ineffective as a Knick

Signed a really old Prigioni to a 3 year contract to basically be a 3rd sting PG

Signed Kenyon Martin - ineffective

Signed Jeremy Tyler - ineffective

Signed Beno Udrih - ineffective

Signed MWP - ineffective

Drafted THJ - uneven/spotty play - not sure about future with Knicks

Why don't you ask me what moves I would support instead of assuming you know? Look at all that wasted effort on your part.

All posts on fan message boards are essentially time wasted that can be used more productively. So essentially we are all "wasting" time & efforts here.

Your question is interesting, considering that Fish asked you to name moves you would support and you passed. Then I pointed out the littany of bad moves that were made previous to Phil - and you passed on that as well. So basically you've offered nothing to back up your point when questioned by multiple posters.

My only point was that he has added no quality veterans, and that should be self-evident.
I think you are incorrectly assuming I said other things like every veteran we acquired in the past was a good move or like I had inside knowledge about who was available in trade. All I posted was an observation on the past 14 months. GMs get evaluated by what they do achieve - that's all we can go by. We don't have access to further information.

That was your statement. Youve been writing this type of stuff for years, but when pressed on what moves YOU would make or what players YOU would target its either crickets or responses like the above. You constantly chime in with your little comments. Here you have been pressed and your backtracking.

Your agenda is self evident. If you have zero admitted knowledge how can you conclude that Phil was incapable? See how that works?

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

This post is a case in point of how someone takes a myopic view of past events to further their agenda. The moves made during 2012 - 2013 including the signing of Kidd were what got the Knicks ultimately into deeper longer term trouble. But don't let that get in the way of your bash Phil agenda.......here's a look at all the Gem moves you wish Phil could have made......

Signed Jason Kidd to a 3 year 9 Million dollar contract - he played on year

Sign & Traded for Camby ($4 mil plus over 3 years) giving up 2 2nd round picks and players - he played in only a few games as a Knick - complete flop

Put an inept Chris Smith on the Roster to appease and resign JR - it did not work out with Chris, and JR was extremely effective for one year and then a distraction thereafter

Let Jeremy Lin go and instead traded a 2nd round pick and other players for Ray Felton - who was effective for 1 year then had domestic abuse and gun troubles and was inneffective thereafter..........and Kurt Thomas who only played one effective year for the Knicks after that

Exercised the option on Shumpert who remained injury plagued and ineffective as a Knick

Signed Rasheed Wallace who was effective as a Knick for approximately 1/4 of a season

Signed Ronnie Brewer who was generally ineffective as a Knick

Signed a really old Prigioni to a 3 year contract to basically be a 3rd sting PG

Signed Kenyon Martin - ineffective

Signed Jeremy Tyler - ineffective

Signed Beno Udrih - ineffective

Signed MWP - ineffective

Drafted THJ - uneven/spotty play - not sure about future with Knicks

Why don't you ask me what moves I would support instead of assuming you know? Look at all that wasted effort on your part.

All posts on fan message boards are essentially time wasted that can be used more productively. So essentially we are all "wasting" time & efforts here.

Your question is interesting, considering that Fish asked you to name moves you would support and you passed. Then I pointed out the littany of bad moves that were made previous to Phil - and you passed on that as well. So basically you've offered nothing to back up your point when questioned by multiple posters.

My only point was that he has added no quality veterans, and that should be self-evident.
I think you are incorrectly assuming I said other things like every veteran we acquired in the past was a good move or like I had inside knowledge about who was available in trade. All I posted was an observation on the past 14 months. GMs get evaluated by what they do achieve - that's all we can go by. We don't have access to further information.

"Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd."

That was your statement. Youve been writing this type of stuff for years, but when pressed on what moves YOU would make or what players YOU would target its either crickets or responses like the above. You constantly chime in with your little comments. Here you have been pressed and your backtracking.

Your agenda is self evident. If you have zero admitted knowledge how can you conclude that Phil was incapable? See how that works?

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd.

This post is a case in point of how someone takes a myopic view of past events to further their agenda. The moves made during 2012 - 2013 including the signing of Kidd were what got the Knicks ultimately into deeper longer term trouble. But don't let that get in the way of your bash Phil agenda.......here's a look at all the Gem moves you wish Phil could have made......

Signed Jason Kidd to a 3 year 9 Million dollar contract - he played on year

Sign & Traded for Camby ($4 mil plus over 3 years) giving up 2 2nd round picks and players - he played in only a few games as a Knick - complete flop

Put an inept Chris Smith on the Roster to appease and resign JR - it did not work out with Chris, and JR was extremely effective for one year and then a distraction thereafter

Let Jeremy Lin go and instead traded a 2nd round pick and other players for Ray Felton - who was effective for 1 year then had domestic abuse and gun troubles and was inneffective thereafter..........and Kurt Thomas who only played one effective year for the Knicks after that

Exercised the option on Shumpert who remained injury plagued and ineffective as a Knick

Signed Rasheed Wallace who was effective as a Knick for approximately 1/4 of a season

Signed Ronnie Brewer who was generally ineffective as a Knick

Signed a really old Prigioni to a 3 year contract to basically be a 3rd sting PG

Signed Kenyon Martin - ineffective

Signed Jeremy Tyler - ineffective

Signed Beno Udrih - ineffective

Signed MWP - ineffective

Drafted THJ - uneven/spotty play - not sure about future with Knicks

Why don't you ask me what moves I would support instead of assuming you know? Look at all that wasted effort on your part.

All posts on fan message boards are essentially time wasted that can be used more productively. So essentially we are all "wasting" time & efforts here.

Your question is interesting, considering that Fish asked you to name moves you would support and you passed. Then I pointed out the littany of bad moves that were made previous to Phil - and you passed on that as well. So basically you've offered nothing to back up your point when questioned by multiple posters.

My only point was that he has added no quality veterans, and that should be self-evident.
I think you are incorrectly assuming I said other things like every veteran we acquired in the past was a good move or like I had inside knowledge about who was available in trade. All I posted was an observation on the past 14 months. GMs get evaluated by what they do achieve - that's all we can go by. We don't have access to further information.

"Phil apparently wasn't capable of adding players like that in the past fourteen months though. It's not like it required major cap space to add Kidd."

That was your statement. Youve been writing this type of stuff for years, but when pressed on what moves YOU would make or what players YOU would target its either crickets or responses like the above. You constantly chime in with your little comments. Here you have been pressed and your backtracking.

Your agenda is self evident. If you have zero admitted knowledge how can you conclude that Phil was incapable? See how that works?

Wow, you're totally obsessed with this one word. By incapable, all I mean is that he was not able to.
You really want to spend the whole day dissecting that word?

Yea bonn.. the one word... thats all it takes to go from observation to agenda. See how that works? Are you capable of grasping that?

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Yea like when we acquired Kidd and he proved to be a Great leader. Worth his weight in Gold. On a cheap deal

was not that cheap, we just got lucky that he retired after year 1 of 3.

True but it's like old we gave him the full MLE. He was worth 3mil per and no way was he going to play out the 3yrs. I certainly wasnt concerned about his contract especially considering the effect he had on the team

I think that in retrospect, it was a bad signing.

1. he crashed the team after the first part of the year
2. who says he would have retired
3. how was it good? cause we won regular season games before he hit a cement wall? This is like saying that Amare was a good signing because he was an mvp candidate for .5 of season 1.

Terrible signing, and one we got the best possible outcome from. A few months of good play to start the season followed by total vomit. But Jason Kidd "a true leader of men" did make 3 baskets in the playoffs. 3. Three. 250 playoff minutes dude shot 3-25. Sorry, Im not a metrics guy... is that good?

Jason was a big reason why we won and a big reason why we lost.

The problem was that while Kidd made Melo play much better, he sucked at the end himself and brought the team down with him.

maybe we would have had a much better shot if he would have led the knicks and carmelo as a coach.