misterearl wrote:Context

knickscity wrote:This question while truly cant be answered because the roster isnt in place can be discussed, merely by looking at the teams already in. Cavs, Hawks, Wizards, Raptors, Bulls imo seem to be locks to get in barring major injuries. So the Knicks could take any of the three remaining spots, but lets analyze that.....

Bucks, Nets Celtics. The Knicks very well could push one of those out, I doubt it being the Bucks as they made the playoffs WITHOUT Jabari Parker and he should be returning next season, and that team does have cap space available. The Nets probably dont make it, but how about Indy with Paul George back? Should be able to pencil that as possible. So the spot to be concerned with would be Boston.

I honestly if everything goes normal, I only see 1 spot to grab, and that team has similar chances to get really good fast as they have quite a few picks and talent to work with and a really good coach so far.

As a betting man, I say no, the Knicks dont make it, but with a solid offseason it's possible, and honestly it's pivotal that they do.

knickscity - thank you for having a rare perspective that takes into account the rest of the Eastern Conference. The Celtics have a truckload of high draft picks and the Bucks, as you mention, have Jabari on reserve. The Sixers have a young core that is learning the word maturity. Toronto is good and their profane general manager is passionate about his job. Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana are all tough. The job of leapfrogging another franchise will require much more than a 19 year old and a wet fantasy free agent to be named later.

Did I leave anyone out?

I think you both nailed it, I also think it's pivotal for phil to have a much more hands on approach with the team. Watching these playoffs, it's clearly obvious that leadership and veterans win in the playoffs. Put together a similar roster to what we had when we won 54 games with a high draft pick, the turn around can be swift.

If we go the no name d league route, 3rd tier players, and talk about were saving cap for 2016, I'm will be offically done..

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Context

knickscity wrote:This question while truly cant be answered because the roster isnt in place can be discussed, merely by looking at the teams already in. Cavs, Hawks, Wizards, Raptors, Bulls imo seem to be locks to get in barring major injuries. So the Knicks could take any of the three remaining spots, but lets analyze that.....

Bucks, Nets Celtics. The Knicks very well could push one of those out, I doubt it being the Bucks as they made the playoffs WITHOUT Jabari Parker and he should be returning next season, and that team does have cap space available. The Nets probably dont make it, but how about Indy with Paul George back? Should be able to pencil that as possible. So the spot to be concerned with would be Boston.

I honestly if everything goes normal, I only see 1 spot to grab, and that team has similar chances to get really good fast as they have quite a few picks and talent to work with and a really good coach so far.

As a betting man, I say no, the Knicks dont make it, but with a solid offseason it's possible, and honestly it's pivotal that they do.

knickscity - thank you for having a rare perspective that takes into account the rest of the Eastern Conference. The Celtics have a truckload of high draft picks and the Bucks, as you mention, have Jabari on reserve. The Sixers have a young core that is learning the word maturity. Toronto is good and their profane general manager is passionate about his job. Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana are all tough. The job of leapfrogging another franchise will require much more than a 19 year old and a wet fantasy free agent to be named later.

Did I leave anyone out?

I think you both nailed it, I also think it's pivotal for phil to have a much more hands on approach with the team. Watching these playoffs, it's clearly obvious that leadership and veterans win in the playoffs. Put together a similar roster to what we had when we won 54 games with a high draft pick, the turn around can be swift.

If we go the no name d league route, 3rd tier players, and talk about were saving cap for 2016, I'm will be offically done..

You guys are all talking like the Knicks aren't aware of the same things you're talking about. You think Phil doesn't know all of this? Come on man! This is just stupid. If you have cap space and talk about rebuilding thru Free Agency, then surely you want to find players who can have a real impact. This FA market does have many players who can have a positive impact on this roster. That's why I created the WS/48 thread to show just how many of the FA's are above average in terms of their impact. If I can formulate that kind of list i'm pretty darned sure that the Knicks and their Analytics Staff have also formulated a similar list of the best FA's regardless of how big their name is.

Make no mistake that the Knicks Scouting and Player Personnel people do use Analytics. They aren't just winging it when making decisions on players.

Mark Warkentien, Director Of Player Personnel:

"For years, Warkentien has evaluated players with an approach he calls 'eyes-ears-numbers.'"
The case for Ty Lawson

At a recent breakfast, Oliver opened his Dell, and on the screen were statistics as scrambled as his eggs.

"This ain't points and rebounds, huh?" an onlooker asked.

"Nooooooo," Oliver said with emphasis.

It was his personal breakdown of North Carolina's team last season, first ranking individual offensive efficiency. What's that?

"It's how many points per 100 possessions did the player use, in order to create points," he said. Field goals count, as do turnovers and free throws.

"So, you have to count the opportunities that it takes to create those," he explained. "This is their efficiency in doing that, in creating points. Ty created 139 points per 100 possessions that he used — any factor of creating points. That is a huge number."

Next was "individual defensive efficiency per 100 possessions," in which "we estimate how often he forced his guy into a bad shot, or how many turnovers he created," Oliver said. He also liked Lawson's numbers there.

After that, there were columns dissecting a player's scoring possessions, total possessions, points produced, percentage of the team offense a player is responsible for and, finally, defensive stops (how many times he was part of stopping the opponent). As Oliver often says, the stats see every game, and the Nuggets were pleased with what the stats saw when they looked at Lawson.

Oliver, who will do some college scouting for the Nuggets this season, also used "pure point rating" — which Warkentien believes is a stronger gauge of a point guard than assist-to-turnover ratio, if only because a turnover is arguably more harmful than an assist is helpful, so why should they be equal?

"It's how much are you creating for your teammates, versus screwing up," Oliver said of pure point rating, and sure enough, Lawson's pure point rating ranked historically among the best in NCAA history.

"The numbers on Lawson absolutely reinforced our eyes and ears," Warkentien said.

Asked if Lawson, the 18th overall pick, should have gone higher in the draft, Oliver could only smile and say, "I don't care — we got him."

misterearl wrote:Chemistry cannot be bought or manufactured.

Without continuity and cohesion, the Knicks will only be a glorified pickup team. As a NYK follower since 1967, The Answer Man implore fans to check history and see how many years it required to build the championship roster, starting from 1963 when we were 22-58.

I think we all understand how much chemistry can play a huge part in a teams success. This doesn't mean it has to take forever for a team to come together. Sometimes it all clicks with certain players. Besides this isn't a sprint to the Title anyway. Why are so many preoccupied with how many years this will take? The entire point is to build a franchise that can sustain good basketball and yearly contention. Phil is simply looking to build the foundation of a sound franchise.

Phil has to start with finding talented, smart, team oriented players who have drive and passion. It seems to me that he's showing that he's looking for guys that give 110% and are team oriented. The more players like that he adds the better this team will be. Nothing you've been writing proves that we can't start to put a good team together this summer. All you're stating are the key factors in success, but none of that means we can't find players who can provide what we need in order to be successful for years to come. It has to start somewhere and that's what this summer is about.

misterearl wrote:nixluva - where was it written that building a championship team would take forever? In your fever to defend your position you resort to hyperbole, and downright exaggeration to make the opposing opinion appear "stupid" (your label) or invalid. Please take a chill pill, calm down and read what is written.

The 1963 Knicks were 22-58 and had one of the most brilliant (and experienced) basketball executives, Eddie Donovan, at the helm. The championship came 6 years later. Certainly, a different era and a different economy, but the lesson of patience is no less valid.

Back to the point of continuity, Uncle Phil will not be here for more than three seasons. he knows it. During his press conference, he admitted he may not be around to see the turnaround through. That is a problem of continuity, which has dogged our beloved franchise for decades. Note the truckload of former Knicks competing in the playoffs. Continuity must be stabilized. Anything less is just starting over, and over, and over.

Dem is the facts.

Preach on brother..

Some people here believe phil is setting the stage for a triangle renaissance..smh, the guy is 70 with all sort of health issues. The next GM/PREZ (which will probably be the 16/17 season) will have his own agenda..

misterearl wrote:nixluva - where was it written that building a championship team would take forever? In your fever to defend your position you resort to hyperbole, and downright exaggeration to make the opposing opinion appear "stupid" (your label) or invalid. Please take a chill pill, calm down and read what is written.

The 1963 Knicks were 22-58 and had one of the most brilliant (and experienced) basketball executives, Eddie Donovan, at the helm. The championship came 6 years later. Certainly, a different era and a different economy, but the lesson of patience is no less valid.

Back to the point of continuity, Uncle Phil will not be here for more than three seasons. he knows it. During his press conference, he admitted he may not be around to see the turnaround through. That is a problem of continuity, which has dogged our beloved franchise for decades. Note the truckload of former Knicks competing in the playoffs. Continuity must be stabilized. Anything less is just starting over, and over, and over.

Dem is the facts.

How teams are built now under the current CBA and the soon to be change when the cap explodes bears no resemblance to that long ago era. If your going to blast me about something at least make it a relevant point.

There needs to be continuity in decision making over a period of more than 3 years. Let Phil stay around (more than 2 years), or as long as it takes to reach the Eastern Conference Finals.

misterearl wrote:nixluva - It was acknowledged, in advance, that the reference was a different era and a different economy, yet you ignore that. Promises, press releases and projections do not mean squat on the scoreboard.

There needs to be continuity in decision making over a period of more than 3 years. Let Phil stay around (more than 2 years), or as long as it takes to reach the Eastern Conference Finals.

misterearl wrote:nixluva - It was acknowledged, in advance, that the reference was a different era and a different economy, yet you ignore that. Promises, press releases and projections do not mean squat on the scoreboard.

There needs to be continuity in decision making over a period of more than 3 years. Let Phil stay around (more than 2 years), or as long as it takes to reach the Eastern Conference Finals.

My problem with your post was in even trying to use the 1963-69 Knicks in reference to this current situation. The ways Phil will look to revamp the top 6 rotation players on this team are with a mix of current players, our top 5 draft pick and cap space to sign at least 2 starters. This has very little in common with rebuilding the 1963 team. Unless you can point to something why bring it up?

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Context

knickscity wrote:This question while truly cant be answered because the roster isnt in place can be discussed, merely by looking at the teams already in. Cavs, Hawks, Wizards, Raptors, Bulls imo seem to be locks to get in barring major injuries. So the Knicks could take any of the three remaining spots, but lets analyze that.....

Bucks, Nets Celtics. The Knicks very well could push one of those out, I doubt it being the Bucks as they made the playoffs WITHOUT Jabari Parker and he should be returning next season, and that team does have cap space available. The Nets probably dont make it, but how about Indy with Paul George back? Should be able to pencil that as possible. So the spot to be concerned with would be Boston.

I honestly if everything goes normal, I only see 1 spot to grab, and that team has similar chances to get really good fast as they have quite a few picks and talent to work with and a really good coach so far.

As a betting man, I say no, the Knicks dont make it, but with a solid offseason it's possible, and honestly it's pivotal that they do.

knickscity - thank you for having a rare perspective that takes into account the rest of the Eastern Conference. The Celtics have a truckload of high draft picks and the Bucks, as you mention, have Jabari on reserve. The Sixers have a young core that is learning the word maturity. Toronto is good and their profane general manager is passionate about his job. Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana are all tough. The job of leapfrogging another franchise will require much more than a 19 year old and a wet fantasy free agent to be named later.

Did I leave anyone out?

I think you both nailed it, I also think it's pivotal for phil to have a much more hands on approach with the team. Watching these playoffs, it's clearly obvious that leadership and veterans win in the playoffs. Put together a similar roster to what we had when we won 54 games with a high draft pick, the turn around can be swift.

If we go the no name d league route, 3rd tier players, and talk about were saving cap for 2016, I'm will be offically done..

You guys are all talking like the Knicks aren't aware of the same things you're talking about. You think Phil doesn't know all of this? Come on man! This is just stupid. If you have cap space and talk about rebuilding thru Free Agency, then surely you want to find players who can have a real impact. This FA market does have many players who can have a positive impact on this roster. That's why I created the WS/48 thread to show just how many of the FA's are above average in terms of their impact. If I can formulate that kind of list i'm pretty darned sure that the Knicks and their Analytics Staff have also formulated a similar list of the best FA's regardless of how big their name is.

Make no mistake that the Knicks Scouting and Player Personnel people do use Analytics. They aren't just winging it when making decisions on players.

Look man, damn near every playoff team in the conference already has what the Knicks are TRYING to do. All the teams mentioned have solid players, an established system, pretty good coaching, and that cap spike is given to everyone, not just the Knicks.

Thats reality, and no chart, graph, excel spreadsheet, nor powerpoint presentation will offset that. There are at least 6 really good teams in the east, the Knicks currently are NOT one of them. But those teams took time to get where they are, but you dont think the Knicks wont take similar time? I can admire positivity, but it looks like stupidity when you wont open your eyes and look at the entire landscape.

Phil knows the road is rough, you seem toi think it will be a cakewalk, you do this every single year. Fine, do you, but until it happens....it hasnt.

We don't have to base how good the Knicis can be off of the status of other teams. That's not how it works. How good the revamped Knicks can be isn't totally dictated by what other teams do. It's all about how Phil is able to put a team together. The better the players he's able to get and how they all fit together, will be the determining factor.

Phil has stated clearly that he's looking at our top 5 daft pick and adding a couple of starting quality free agents. He's said they'll look at some possible foreign players they might be able to bring over. So for the most part he's said he's not expecting to bring in 10 new guys. 3-4 new top of the rotation players is a big change in one off season.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Context

knickscity wrote:This question while truly cant be answered because the roster isnt in place can be discussed, merely by looking at the teams already in. Cavs, Hawks, Wizards, Raptors, Bulls imo seem to be locks to get in barring major injuries. So the Knicks could take any of the three remaining spots, but lets analyze that.....

Bucks, Nets Celtics. The Knicks very well could push one of those out, I doubt it being the Bucks as they made the playoffs WITHOUT Jabari Parker and he should be returning next season, and that team does have cap space available. The Nets probably dont make it, but how about Indy with Paul George back? Should be able to pencil that as possible. So the spot to be concerned with would be Boston.

I honestly if everything goes normal, I only see 1 spot to grab, and that team has similar chances to get really good fast as they have quite a few picks and talent to work with and a really good coach so far.

As a betting man, I say no, the Knicks dont make it, but with a solid offseason it's possible, and honestly it's pivotal that they do.

knickscity - thank you for having a rare perspective that takes into account the rest of the Eastern Conference. The Celtics have a truckload of high draft picks and the Bucks, as you mention, have Jabari on reserve. The Sixers have a young core that is learning the word maturity. Toronto is good and their profane general manager is passionate about his job. Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana are all tough. The job of leapfrogging another franchise will require much more than a 19 year old and a wet fantasy free agent to be named later.

Did I leave anyone out?

I think you both nailed it, I also think it's pivotal for phil to have a much more hands on approach with the team. Watching these playoffs, it's clearly obvious that leadership and veterans win in the playoffs. Put together a similar roster to what we had when we won 54 games with a high draft pick, the turn around can be swift.

If we go the no name d league route, 3rd tier players, and talk about were saving cap for 2016, I'm will be offically done..

You guys are all talking like the Knicks aren't aware of the same things you're talking about. You think Phil doesn't know all of this? Come on man! This is just stupid. If you have cap space and talk about rebuilding thru Free Agency, then surely you want to find players who can have a real impact. This FA market does have many players who can have a positive impact on this roster. That's why I created the WS/48 thread to show just how many of the FA's are above average in terms of their impact. If I can formulate that kind of list i'm pretty darned sure that the Knicks and their Analytics Staff have also formulated a similar list of the best FA's regardless of how big their name is.

Make no mistake that the Knicks Scouting and Player Personnel people do use Analytics. They aren't just winging it when making decisions on players.

Look man, damn near every playoff team in the conference already has what the Knicks are TRYING to do. All the teams mentioned have solid players, an established system, pretty good coaching, and that cap spike is given to everyone, not just the Knicks.

Thats reality, and no chart, graph, excel spreadsheet, nor powerpoint presentation will offset that. There are at least 6 really good teams in the east, the Knicks currently are NOT one of them. But those teams took time to get where they are, but you dont think the Knicks wont take similar time? I can admire positivity, but it looks like stupidity when you wont open your eyes and look at the entire landscape.

Phil knows the road is rough, you seem toi think it will be a cakewalk, you do this every single year. Fine, do you, but until it happens....it hasnt.

We don't have to base how good the Knicis can be off of the status of other teams. That's not how it works. How good the revamped Knicks can be isn't totally dictated by what other teams do. It's all about how Phil is able to put a team together. The better the players he's able to get and how they all fit together, will be the determining factor.

Phil has stated clearly that he's looking at our top 5 daft pick and adding a couple of starting quality free agents. He's said they'll look at some possible foreign players they might be able to bring over. So for the most part he's said he's not expecting to bring in 10 new guys. 3-4 new top of the rotation players is a big change in one off season.

We dont, but Phil has...thats why he mentions other teams by name, and thats certainly how it works, because all those other teams are ahead of the curve that the Knicks hope to arrive at. In a perfect world, the Knicks acquire some really good talent and in a few years they get to the level of the teams already in front.

It all depends on who we get. That is ALWAYS the determining factor. It's not always a linear progression. That's why some teams have in fact made massive improvement in one off season. This exactly the point CrushAlot just made:

For reference, Rod Thorn got the Nets to the finals in his second year. The Nets won 26 more games in Thorn's second year in nj.

The truth is you can't say just how much of a turnaround the Knicks will make next year at this point. It doesn't have to be some minor improvement stretched out over years. Phil may just be successful this summer in revamping the top of this roster and seeing a substantial improvement. Some are suggesting we'll miss the playoffs but we can't know that at this point.

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:nixluva - where was it written that building a championship team would take forever? In your fever to defend your position you resort to hyperbole, and downright exaggeration to make the opposing opinion appear "stupid" (your label) or invalid. Please take a chill pill, calm down and read what is written.

The 1963 Knicks were 22-58 and had one of the most brilliant (and experienced) basketball executives, Eddie Donovan, at the helm. The championship came 6 years later. Certainly, a different era and a different economy, but the lesson of patience is no less valid.

Back to the point of continuity, Uncle Phil will not be here for more than three seasons. he knows it. During his press conference, he admitted he may not be around to see the turnaround through. That is a problem of continuity, which has dogged our beloved franchise for decades. Note the truckload of former Knicks competing in the playoffs. Continuity must be stabilized. Anything less is just starting over, and over, and over.

Dem is the facts.

Preach on brother..

Some people here believe phil is setting the stage for a triangle renaissance..smh, the guy is 70 with all sort of health issues. The next GM/PREZ (which will probably be the 16/17 season) will have his own agenda..

I don't give a shyte about the triangle. I just want solid, fundamental hoops (both sides of the court) and a winning, team-first culture. I want the organization to learn from its past and prepare better. I want an end to media-driven, reactionary team mgmt.

When I read that over it actually looks hard to achieve. But at least it's a possibility to get started now. I really hope it's not a revolving door that Mister Earl describes. I want the Knicks to build smart and put out a good product. And a chip would be extra special.