Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...Brewer put the game away hitting 3 threes down the stretch, assist from Harden...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dk7..Here are 7 shooting guards who are better defenders than Harden using my eye test...Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade, Shumpert, JR Smith, Thabo Sefolosha, Klay Thompson, Avery Bradley...

i said among starting shooting guards, meaning 30 minutes a game or more. yes there are bench players who end up playing starters minutes so i use 30 minutes to erase the problem. among all guards who play 30 minutes or more a game he is 9th this season. his net impact on defense is just a little above zero, meaning he does not hurt his team on defense this season. last year he posted a -2.84 and was 20th so you would have had a viable argument a year ago.

that was then this is now:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/2

sefalosha is a small forward, avery bradley is a point guard.

Bradley came in the league as a PG..Remember Doc switching him to the 2 and Bradley starting ahead of Ray Allen where he also defended 2s...Thabo is a SF but defends both position..H

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

CrushAlot wrote:Man Dantoni said the Knicks wouldn't have minutes for brewer. Walsh/Dantoni was awful.

We had decimated our roster in the Melo trade and had no bench- we then let a serviceable player go for no reason whatsoever because we couldn't find minutes for him?! We were playing billy walker!

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

Holfresh, I agree with most of what you are saying in terms of the Mavs/Rockets game (I acrtually watched the game as well). With that said, I disagree with the game is moving away from guards who can penetrate. The game has actually turned into a drive and kick league. Guys might not be getting all the way to the cup like in years past, (Save for the elite like Kyrie, Tony Parker, etc), but guards are needed to get into the paint, draw the help defender and kick it out for a three.

The new thing now, or at least the last several years is for the guard to penetrate on the strong side to the baseline, almost under the basket and out of bounds, and whip a pass across the court (under the basket) to the baseline weakside for a corner 3. This is an actual play that a lot of teams run to stretch the floor. As a coach, I have dozens of recent coaching clinics on dvds where I study skills, drills and plays and they are doing this even in HS.

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

Holfresh, I agree with most of what you are saying in terms of the Mavs/Rockets game (I acrtually watched the game as well). With that said, I disagree with the game is moving away from guards who can penetrate. The game has actually turned into a drive and kick league. Guys might not be getting all the way to the cup like in years past, (Save for the elite like Kyrie, Tony Parker, etc), but guards are needed to get into the paint, draw the help defender and kick it out for a three.

The new thing now, or at least the last several years is for the guard to penetrate on the strong side to the baseline, almost under the basket and out of bounds, and whip a pass across the court (under the basket) to the baseline weakside for a corner 3. This is an actual play that a lot of teams run to stretch the floor. As a coach, I have dozens of recent coaching clinics on dvds where I study skills, drills and plays and they are doing this even in HS.

True, MDA made it a drive and kick league but remember the days when 2 guards and SF used to go hard to the hole..Now only PGs go hard if they do at all..

But take a look at Harden..Dallas took away his left hand penetration and he struggled offensively...This is an MVP candidate..Your offensive game should to be more versatile in this 3 ball era..He can't post and he doesn't have another spot where he catches the ball other than the top of the key...I think if he had a mid-range game his numbers would have been better..But they won and a win is a win..But that's why I love the playoffs, all these flaws are exposed...

BigDaddyG wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

Holfresh, I agree with most of what you are saying in terms of the Mavs/Rockets game (I acrtually watched the game as well). With that said, I disagree with the game is moving away from guards who can penetrate. The game has actually turned into a drive and kick league. Guys might not be getting all the way to the cup like in years past, (Save for the elite like Kyrie, Tony Parker, etc), but guards are needed to get into the paint, draw the help defender and kick it out for a three.

The new thing now, or at least the last several years is for the guard to penetrate on the strong side to the baseline, almost under the basket and out of bounds, and whip a pass across the court (under the basket) to the baseline weakside for a corner 3. This is an actual play that a lot of teams run to stretch the floor. As a coach, I have dozens of recent coaching clinics on dvds where I study skills, drills and plays and they are doing this even in HS.

True, MDA made it a drive and kick league but remember the days when 2 guards and SF used to go hard to the hole..Now only PGs go hard if they do at all..

But take a look at Harden..Dallas took away his left hand penetration and he struggled offensively...This is an MVP candidate..Your offensive game should to be more versatile in this 3 ball era..He can't post and he doesn't have another spot where he catches the ball other than the top of the key...I think if he had a mid-range game his numbers would have been better..But they won and a win is a win..But that's why I love the playoffs, all these flaws are exposed...

I remember Harden's midrange game being more prominent in OKC. The
at's shifted in Houston. Im not sure how much success Houston will have with this system in the playoffs, especially with McHale as coach. I think teams have to at least give the illusion of being threats from every position on the court.

Agreed, but if you don't use it all year then you are out of practice..

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

Holfresh, I agree with most of what you are saying in terms of the Mavs/Rockets game (I acrtually watched the game as well). With that said, I disagree with the game is moving away from guards who can penetrate. The game has actually turned into a drive and kick league. Guys might not be getting all the way to the cup like in years past, (Save for the elite like Kyrie, Tony Parker, etc), but guards are needed to get into the paint, draw the help defender and kick it out for a three.

The new thing now, or at least the last several years is for the guard to penetrate on the strong side to the baseline, almost under the basket and out of bounds, and whip a pass across the court (under the basket) to the baseline weakside for a corner 3. This is an actual play that a lot of teams run to stretch the floor. As a coach, I have dozens of recent coaching clinics on dvds where I study skills, drills and plays and they are doing this even in HS.

True, MDA made it a drive and kick league but remember the days when 2 guards and SF used to go hard to the hole..Now only PGs go hard if they do at all..

But take a look at Harden..Dallas took away his left hand penetration and he struggled offensively...This is an MVP candidate..Your offensive game should to be more versatile in this 3 ball era..He can't post and he doesn't have another spot where he catches the ball other than the top of the key...I think if he had a mid-range game his numbers would have been better..But they won and a win is a win..But that's why I love the playoffs, all these flaws are exposed...

Kevin Durant got exposed in the playoffs as well because he does not have a post game.

Lebron was exposed until he developed a post game.

Kobe and MJ developed post games.

Harden needs development just like the rest of them. Nobody is perfect and therefore, will get exposed and be forced to address the issue(s)

The point being made is that their front office is against this...It's not regarded as an efficient way to score...

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Flu Tyson is gone. 11 pts, 18 rbss. That Rondo trade killed the Mavs though.
Harden showed how important versatility is on offense. Even when his shot isn't falling, he scored in the 20s and had double digit assists. Holfresh, do you think they would have won the game without him last night or are you just nit-picking?

I'm nit-picking for sure and no, I don't think the Rockets could have won without his efforts...Did you see the game???..Don't seem so...But he didn't do anything that dozens of other players could have done in that game..It wasn't very Harden-like that we have become accustomed to, or maybe it's the playoffs again...Harden padded his stat with a series of intentions fouls to stop the clock at the end of the game..The Mav's, Ellis and Rondo, were brilliant keeping him from going left and out of the lane..Add to that the flops and you know the rest..But the guy who set the tone of the game was DHow whose defense propelled the Rockets twice to double digit leads..Harden's defense was the worse I had seen of any player this season in the NBA...And I'm not just saying that...He ran away from plays, literally, I saw it twice...Ran out of the way of a player driving...Hubie Brown once commented Harden, ah come on...I just found it fascinating that advanced stat guys might be drooling at his numbers from this game...

Parsons not being healthy did in the Mav's not Rondo..Flu Tyson got his numbers off Rondo getting to the cup where he had put backs...

Tyson doesn't need Rondo to average double digit scoring. He's done that for years. The Mavs winning percentage dropped almost .200 points after the Rondo trade. That trade did kill them.

BS...We saw it with here what Felton getting into the lane did for Tyson...Same thing happened yesterday, Without Rondo missing layups, Tyson had zero put back opportunities..

Of course he's going to be dependent on having an NBA level backcourt player who can get into the lane, and it's obvious that sometimes those shots will be misses. If a team doesn't have an NBA level backcourt member who can penetrate, it has even bigger problems than anything related to Tyson though.

The game is moving away from players who penetrate and to those who shoot threes...You should be happy...

Holfresh, I agree with most of what you are saying in terms of the Mavs/Rockets game (I acrtually watched the game as well). With that said, I disagree with the game is moving away from guards who can penetrate. The game has actually turned into a drive and kick league. Guys might not be getting all the way to the cup like in years past, (Save for the elite like Kyrie, Tony Parker, etc), but guards are needed to get into the paint, draw the help defender and kick it out for a three.

The new thing now, or at least the last several years is for the guard to penetrate on the strong side to the baseline, almost under the basket and out of bounds, and whip a pass across the court (under the basket) to the baseline weakside for a corner 3. This is an actual play that a lot of teams run to stretch the floor. As a coach, I have dozens of recent coaching clinics on dvds where I study skills, drills and plays and they are doing this even in HS.

True, MDA made it a drive and kick league but remember the days when 2 guards and SF used to go hard to the hole..Now only PGs go hard if they do at all..

But take a look at Harden..Dallas took away his left hand penetration and he struggled offensively...This is an MVP candidate..Your offensive game should to be more versatile in this 3 ball era..He can't post and he doesn't have another spot where he catches the ball other than the top of the key...I think if he had a mid-range game his numbers would have been better..But they won and a win is a win..But that's why I love the playoffs, all these flaws are exposed...

Kevin Durant got exposed in the playoffs as well because he does not have a post game.

Lebron was exposed until he developed a post game.

Kobe and MJ developed post games.

Harden needs development just like the rest of them. Nobody is perfect and therefore, will get exposed and be forced to address the issue(s)

you may have a point here. add dirk to that list, and wade was not bad either. then again, some of these so-called post games end up being fadeaway step-backs in the dreaded midrange. and as i recall you may have an issue with the midrange shot?