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Further Proof this triangle is for the birds
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knicks1248
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3/27/2015  9:27 AM
The triangle offense has been a disaster in the D-League too.
The Westchester Knicks’ inaugural season is coming to a close with five games left, ending April 4 and Phil Jackson’s D-League affiliate owns the second-worst record of the 18 teams at 10-35.
At least Westchester’s .222 winning percentage is better than Derek Fisher’s big club — which is 14-58 with a .194 percent entering Friday’s Garden match against the Celtics. The organization was thrilled to have a D-League team in its backyard to develop players while running Jackson’s triangle, which has come under fire this season as being antiquated.
First-year coach Kevin Whitted, according to an NBA source, hasn’t been on the same page as assistant Craig Hodges. Whitted was an Allan Houston hire as they were former Tennessee teammates. Houston is Westchester’s general manager.
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Craig Hodges in 2012
Photo: AP
Hodges, meanwhile, is a Jackson disciple. Hodges, a 3-point specialist, played for Jackson with the Bulls, winning two titles. Hodges also was a Lakers assistant under Jackson, winning two more titles. There’s speculation Hodges could be Westchester’s head coach next season. According to a source, Hodges left the team for at least a game early in the season.
It hasn’t been all negative. Attendance has been fantastic — averaging 1,971 in 22 home games, which is 93 percent capacity. Attendance rankings aren’t kept in the D-League because some franchises only have 300-seat capacities.
In addition, undrafted guard Langston Galloway was signed out of Westchester in January and is expected to be with the Knicks next season after an impressive rookie campaign. Rookie Cleanthony Early also tasted D-League play to get in better condition, playing three games.
Nevertheless, when the Knicks were looking recently to fill an open roster spot, Jackson passed over Westchester and signed baggage-laden Ricky Ledo of the Texas Legends to a 10-day pact. Ledo committed seven turnovers Wednesday.
The Knicks’ second-round pick, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, was not deemed ready after a season in Westchester. One D-League source said Westchester recently filled out its roster not so much with young developmental players, but too many veterans. In addition, prospect Orlando Sanchez, who was at Knicks training camp, left the squad recently because of financial reasons when told he wasn’t going to be signed.

Phil and his tirangle is a totally waist, it's not for todays game and i don't care what kind of talent you have. It's difficult to pick up and takes way to long to grasp and have everyone on the same page. This is why phil is hiring only his guys from top to bottom, but their not him, and it's a crying shame he won't get it until it's too late.

This guy fills the d- league with vets, and the NBA squad with young guns who are far far far from developing any kind of cohesion.

Ya'll keep saying wait until next season, but his been a utter failure in both the d league and the NBA..

ES
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smackeddog
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3/27/2015  9:53 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
The triangle offense has been a disaster in the D-League too.
The Westchester Knicks’ inaugural season is coming to a close with five games left, ending April 4 and Phil Jackson’s D-League affiliate owns the second-worst record of the 18 teams at 10-35.
At least Westchester’s .222 winning percentage is better than Derek Fisher’s big club — which is 14-58 with a .194 percent entering Friday’s Garden match against the Celtics. The organization was thrilled to have a D-League team in its backyard to develop players while running Jackson’s triangle, which has come under fire this season as being antiquated.
First-year coach Kevin Whitted, according to an NBA source, hasn’t been on the same page as assistant Craig Hodges. Whitted was an Allan Houston hire as they were former Tennessee teammates. Houston is Westchester’s general manager.
Modal Trigger
Craig Hodges in 2012
Photo: AP
Hodges, meanwhile, is a Jackson disciple. Hodges, a 3-point specialist, played for Jackson with the Bulls, winning two titles. Hodges also was a Lakers assistant under Jackson, winning two more titles. There’s speculation Hodges could be Westchester’s head coach next season. According to a source, Hodges left the team for at least a game early in the season.
It hasn’t been all negative. Attendance has been fantastic — averaging 1,971 in 22 home games, which is 93 percent capacity. Attendance rankings aren’t kept in the D-League because some franchises only have 300-seat capacities.
In addition, undrafted guard Langston Galloway was signed out of Westchester in January and is expected to be with the Knicks next season after an impressive rookie campaign. Rookie Cleanthony Early also tasted D-League play to get in better condition, playing three games.
Nevertheless, when the Knicks were looking recently to fill an open roster spot, Jackson passed over Westchester and signed baggage-laden Ricky Ledo of the Texas Legends to a 10-day pact. Ledo committed seven turnovers Wednesday.
The Knicks’ second-round pick, Thanasis Antetokounmpo, was not deemed ready after a season in Westchester. One D-League source said Westchester recently filled out its roster not so much with young developmental players, but too many veterans. In addition, prospect Orlando Sanchez, who was at Knicks training camp, left the squad recently because of financial reasons when told he wasn’t going to be signed.

Phil and his tirangle is a totally waist, it's not for todays game and i don't care what kind of talent you have. It's difficult to pick up and takes way to long to grasp and have everyone on the same page. This is why phil is hiring only his guys from top to bottom, but their not him, and it's a crying shame he won't get it until it's too late.

This guy fills the d- league with vets, and the NBA squad with young guns who are far far far from developing any kind of cohesion.

Ya'll keep saying wait until next season, but his been a utter failure in both the d league and the NBA..

I think you misunderstand the definition of 'proof'
franco12
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3/27/2015  10:47 AM
this isn't proof its for the birds.

There was another stat I read here in an article about our shot selection - and the point I took away was our players have done ok with scoring, its just the system we're in that seems to lead players to shoot long range 2s.

Can better talent use this system to get better shots? I'm not sure.

I just hope Phil & Fisher are open to a honest evaluation & the possibility that today's NBA is different to the one Phil coached in & they will have to modify the system a bunch more to make it effective.
TPercy
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3/27/2015  11:38 AM
Holy crap I didn't know our D league team was that bad
The Future is Bright!
nixluva
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3/27/2015  12:01 PM
People are really not paying attention to what is actually going on with the Knicks and they totally have bought into the media spin that Phil is totally inflexible. It's simply not true.

Jackson argued that the triangle was not an inflexible system. As much as he disliked the emerging overreliance on the 3-point shot, he saw the game moving in that direction, and “we did more with it during the last two championships in L.A.” Now, he said, he would even endorse a 4-point shot being implemented a few feet behind the 3-point line.

Jackson has told Fisher that he is free to tinker, create his own version. “I did things that were altogether different from what Tex ran with his old teams,” he said. “So I told Fish, you’re going to have your own stamp that you put on it, but players need to know that they have a base to perform out of. That’s his role, to do the innovation with today’s type player.”
knicks1248
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3/27/2015  12:48 PM
nixluva wrote:People are really not paying attention to what is actually going on with the Knicks and they totally have bought into the media spin that Phil is totally inflexible. It's simply not true.

Jackson argued that the triangle was not an inflexible system. As much as he disliked the emerging overreliance on the 3-point shot, he saw the game moving in that direction, and “we did more with it during the last two championships in L.A.” Now, he said, he would even endorse a 4-point shot being implemented a few feet behind the 3-point line.

Jackson has told Fisher that he is free to tinker, create his own version. “I did things that were altogether different from what Tex ran with his old teams,” he said. “So I told Fish, you’re going to have your own stamp that you put on it, but players need to know that they have a base to perform out of. That’s his role, to do the innovation with today’s type player.”


well we already know fisher hasn't done a damn thing as far as putting his stamp on anything, his team his completely ignoring him.

More importantly, the rosters that he has been putting together have been flat out brutally bad for both teams..

ES
nixluva
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3/27/2015  2:18 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:People are really not paying attention to what is actually going on with the Knicks and they totally have bought into the media spin that Phil is totally inflexible. It's simply not true.

Jackson argued that the triangle was not an inflexible system. As much as he disliked the emerging overreliance on the 3-point shot, he saw the game moving in that direction, and “we did more with it during the last two championships in L.A.” Now, he said, he would even endorse a 4-point shot being implemented a few feet behind the 3-point line.

Jackson has told Fisher that he is free to tinker, create his own version. “I did things that were altogether different from what Tex ran with his old teams,” he said. “So I told Fish, you’re going to have your own stamp that you put on it, but players need to know that they have a base to perform out of. That’s his role, to do the innovation with today’s type player.”


well we already know fisher hasn't done a damn thing as far as putting his stamp on anything, his team his completely ignoring him.

More importantly, the rosters that he has been putting together have been flat out brutally bad for both teams..


You can't base everything off what is happening this season. The more limited your players are the more vanilla you have to make your offense. I think you might not be taking all the factors into account. Besides the Knicks get great shots but aren't hitting them. How many of those missed layups our bigs are taking will go down with better players? How many open shots and cuts to the basket will be converted or lead to FT's?

I think if you actually look at the way the team is getting good looks but failing to convert you can see that it's not the offense that is the problem nor is it a lack of preparation by Fish. He's putting them in position but they just aren't good enough. This is the main difference in how you and I view the coach and the triangle. I'm watching how they actually execute the offense and not concentrating on the fact that these players don't convert at a high %.
The offense is creating the scoring opportunities just fine. They just aren't talented enough to finish. This is not even getting into creating on their own and improvising which very few of our players are capable of doing.
NardDogNation
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3/27/2015  2:20 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
nixluva wrote:People are really not paying attention to what is actually going on with the Knicks and they totally have bought into the media spin that Phil is totally inflexible. It's simply not true.

Jackson argued that the triangle was not an inflexible system. As much as he disliked the emerging overreliance on the 3-point shot, he saw the game moving in that direction, and “we did more with it during the last two championships in L.A.” Now, he said, he would even endorse a 4-point shot being implemented a few feet behind the 3-point line.

Jackson has told Fisher that he is free to tinker, create his own version. “I did things that were altogether different from what Tex ran with his old teams,” he said. “So I told Fish, you’re going to have your own stamp that you put on it, but players need to know that they have a base to perform out of. That’s his role, to do the innovation with today’s type player.”


well we already know fisher hasn't done a damn thing as far as putting his stamp on anything, his team his completely ignoring him.

More importantly, the rosters that he has been putting together have been flat out brutally bad for both teams..

...the roster in general sucks. And the triangle is not an easy system to learn anyway. Combine those two elements and you get our win-lose record.
DrAlphaeus
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3/27/2015  3:11 PM
At least the W-Knicks head coach has been a head coach before!

Whitted brings eight years of professional basketball coaching experience to Westchester, three of which were spent in the NBA Development League. Beginning his coaching career in the American Basketball Association (ABA) and Professional Basketball League (PBL), Whitted won his first two division championships as head coach. After two seasons as the President of Basketball Operations for the Wilmington Sea Dawgs (PBL), he became an assistant coach first for the Fort Wayne Mad Ants, followed by the Springfield Armor, who at the time were affiliated with the Knicks. Following a stint in the NBA Summer League as an Assistant Coach with the Memphis Grizzlies, Whitted most recently served as the interim head men’s basketball coach at Southwest Tennessee Community College.

Before enjoying a seven-year professional basketball career in the United States and Europe, Whitted accumulated 972 points as a three-year starter for Tennessee. A four-year letterman at Laney High School in Wilmington, North Carolina, Whitted became the all-time leading scorer in 1990 with 1,554 points, surpassing the record previously held by Michael Jordan.

Whitted has also been nationally recognized as a basketball skills developer, training and developing elite level players in the NIKE Skills Academies.

http://www.nba.com/dleague/westchester/kevin_whitted_named_westcheste_2014_10_08.html

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Nalod
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3/27/2015  3:13 PM
The fact we are sticking to a system even when it does not work actually galvanizes the decision.

Usually things that are easy are unsustainable!

Proof might take 5 years to decide. I prefer to grade this "culture" in hindsight then what is obviously not in front of me.

Don't make me right or wrong actually, just a work in progress. It might be an object failure, but there is no proof.
nixluva
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3/27/2015  3:24 PM
My take is that Phil and his staff aren't guessing when it comes to sticking to the program. They've actually done this before. Put yourself in their shoes. If you've been to the mountain top multiple times with a system and actually won just 5 years ago how do you think you'd feel about that system?

Besides as I wrote before, Phil is fully aware of the changes in the game and isn't as averse to tweaking his system in order to improve it much as he did during his career coaching. People forget that he's been making changes over the years to the Triangle. It's been slightly different with each team he's had. The mistake people make is in thinking it's not a flexible system. It's totally flexible. You can choose to feature whatever you see is working and remove what you see isn't working and the system keeps on going. We're talking about spacing, ball and player movement. It's not a system full of set plays. There aren't really plays as much as options and basic rules so players know what to expect. The longer a player is in this system the more instinctive it becomes and a group of players can make tweaks as they see fit.

The thing I like is that if an option fails they just reset and keep it flowing. It's not as fluid as the Spurs offense but it's very close in terms of constant motion. We have to always keep in mind the level of talent of the players we have which makes it look far worse than it should. The better the talent the better the offense will look.
Nalod
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3/27/2015  4:12 PM
Proof x eleven

The last was 5 years ago. I doubt the game has really passed him by in 5 years.
ramtour420
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3/27/2015  4:41 PM
When it comes to having a crappy record. We as the Knickerbockers, have a pretty freakin good understanding of what it takes. Developing Galloway and then loosing him had nothing to do with it. Nor does having a head coach that got the job by being Allan Houston's friend. And having an assistant coach who, by all accounts, will replace the head coach next season. Yep those things matter very little when compared to how " antiquated" the Triangle is.

: sarcasm off :

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Vmart
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3/27/2015  4:47 PM
It's a developmental league no one cares about wins just player development.
SupremeCommander
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3/27/2015  5:02 PM
Nalod wrote:Proof x eleven

The last was 5 years ago. I doubt the game has really passed him by in 5 years.

that book was great if anyone has yet to read it.

Phil was the only one to get the triangle to work.

That said, the Spurs borrow heavily from the triangle. They went from a defense-oriented straight-up-and-down team (remember how they looked in 1999?) to borrowing heavily from the triangle in their system.

Steve Kerr most recently borrowed from the triangle...

All systems and processes need to get updated. That's part of life.

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
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3/27/2015  10:04 PM
Berman is a hack. That stuff about Thanasis is wrong and he either is choosing to stir things up or doesn't take his craft serious enough to do proper research. Also, Orlando Sanchez is already 26 and while he showed potential, he was not consistent. Sanchez also is still listed in every w-Knicks box score and may re-appear on the team just like the last time he left to sign with a team in Ouerto Rico. Ledo may not have been the best choice but trying out guys other than Thanasis is the smart move.
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Splat
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3/27/2015  10:21 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Berman is a hack. That stuff about Thanasis is wrong and he either is choosing to stir things up or doesn't take his craft serious enough to do proper research. Also, Orlando Sanchez is already 26 and while he showed potential, he was not consistent. Sanchez also is still listed in every w-Knicks box score and may re-appear on the team just like the last time he left to sign with a team in Ouerto Rico. Ledo may not have been the best choice but trying out guys other than Thanasis is the smart move.

Yeah, Berman should know the Knicks bringing up Thanasis next season is a matter of contract management, not readiness. Besides, he looks like the one potentially excellent talent in the pipeline and I'd bring him up at the beginning of next season too if only to get him started in the league with what should be a better squad than they have now. I see little benefit of bringing him up now. They know he's got talent.

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CashMoney
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3/27/2015  11:27 PM
The triangle works as long as you have the best player in the league playing along with a loaded roster.
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Splat
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3/27/2015  11:30 PM
CashMoney wrote:The triangle works as long as you have the best player in the league playing along with a loaded roster.

And trying to play the triangle with a bunch of rejects who will mostly not be here next season should have never been the priority, but that's their version of building a culture and continuity.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
BigDaddyG
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3/28/2015  12:07 AM
Vmart wrote:It's a developmental league no one cares about wins just player development.

Didn't Andre Barrett start for the W Knicks at the beginning of the season? The talent on the minor league squad has been about as bad as it's been for the NBA squad.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
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