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Pistons 4-1 without Monroe since he hurt his knee.
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BRIGGS
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3/26/2015  7:52 PM
the last 5 games beat Chicago Memphis and Toronto
RIP Crushalot😞
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smackeddog
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3/26/2015  8:01 PM
That's more to do with reggie Jackson return from the dead. Like I said before, I don't think Monroe makes his teams win or lose- he just gives you a consistent 15 and 10, it would be up to other players to be the difference makers.
Bonn1997
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3/26/2015  8:04 PM
smackeddog wrote:That's more to do with reggie Jackson return from the dead. Like I said before, I don't think Monroe makes his teams win or lose- he just gives you a consistent 15 and 10, it would be up to other players to be the difference makers.

Well that's not someone I'd want to give 12 or 15 mil a year to!
smackeddog
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3/26/2015  8:12 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:That's more to do with reggie Jackson return from the dead. Like I said before, I don't think Monroe makes his teams win or lose- he just gives you a consistent 15 and 10, it would be up to other players to be the difference makers.

Well that's not someone I'd want to give 12 or 15 mil a year to!

I'm in two minds- consistency would be nice, rebounding would be nice, exploding cap reducing his salary makes a big deal easier to swallow, etc but I wish there was someone better and realistic we could give the money to.
Bonn1997
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3/26/2015  8:14 PM
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:That's more to do with reggie Jackson return from the dead. Like I said before, I don't think Monroe makes his teams win or lose- he just gives you a consistent 15 and 10, it would be up to other players to be the difference makers.

Well that's not someone I'd want to give 12 or 15 mil a year to!

I'm in two minds- consistency would be nice, rebounding would be nice, exploding cap reducing his salary makes a big deal easier to swallow, etc but I wish there was someone better and realistic we could give the money to.


For the same price, I think Millsap is a much better player.
smackeddog
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3/26/2015  8:18 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
smackeddog wrote:That's more to do with reggie Jackson return from the dead. Like I said before, I don't think Monroe makes his teams win or lose- he just gives you a consistent 15 and 10, it would be up to other players to be the difference makers.

Well that's not someone I'd want to give 12 or 15 mil a year to!

I'm in two minds- consistency would be nice, rebounding would be nice, exploding cap reducing his salary makes a big deal easier to swallow, etc but I wish there was someone better and realistic we could give the money to.


For the same price, I think Millsap is a much better player.

I like milsap more, but I wish he were a couple of years younger- that's the only thing that puts me off him. He helps his team win games- just worry about age related decline with him not being the tallest PF
nixluva
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3/26/2015  9:15 PM
Millsap is just too old IMO. I won't throw Millsap back if we got him but in bringing in players i'm looking for younger players that can be part of the future as well as the present. If i'm paying for a kid that is only 24 and still has upside that is also in a max range that is below the older vets, that is a good signing. Monroe is on the list of top WS/48 players and I believe he would help this team. I don't care what the Pistons are doing without him. I just know that he'd be a massive improvement over what we put out there to start games. It seems silly to me that we should look down on a player who is a clear starting caliber player when we don't even have one now.

Millsap is a better player right now but he's also 29 and not 24. Perhaps Monroe will also get better under our coaching and system. He's not that far off of Millsap's production that i'd overlook the difference in age. Monroe isn't the only option so it's not him or bust. He is going to be an option tho as he should be.
crzymdups
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3/27/2015  3:04 PM
Monroe is a terrible defender. Signing him would be a mistake.

Paul Milsap is a vastly superior player at PF. I also like Tobias Harris.

¿ △ ?
ramtour420
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3/27/2015  3:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/27/2015  4:00 PM
Let's not settle when it comes to FA. A center has to defend, no ifs or buts about it. In the triangle a C also has to be able to pass, and in the ideal world he has to be able to also post up and/or make the midrange shot. This is why Chandler was an odd man out( not to mention his sucky attitude). We need to get a player like that in the lottery ( no center available in FA can do all of the above, I don't think). This is why I don't really want Kevin Love , unless we get a C to compliment his defensive deficiencies . For this reason Zachary Randolph would still be a loser if he was not complimented by a defensive C. So either a D minded Pf plus an offensive minded C( Ok4) , or the other way around, a defense 1st center and a scoring PF like K Love.

There are some possible combinations there, like a Stein/ Kevin Love or ok4/Mark Gasol. Easier said than done, of course

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Nalod
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3/27/2015  4:09 PM
I'll be fine if Phil thinks Monroe can be more than he is. A mans potential is worth more than a fans opinion.
gunsnewing
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3/27/2015  4:13 PM
Nalod wrote:I'll be fine if Phil thinks Monroe can be more than he is. A mans potential is worth more than a fans opinion.

+1
ramtour420
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3/27/2015  4:30 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Nalod wrote:I'll be fine if Phil thinks Monroe can be more than he is. A mans potential is worth more than a fans opinion.

+1

Correct me if I am wrong, but developing offensive parts of ones game is pretty routine( d lee) when compared to developing ones defense. I can only think of a handful of times when a player developed a mean defensive streak( for the most part it has happened on teams that have a strong defensive approach. It takes effort more so than skill and a player either has that or doesn't. So players like Monroe or D Lee or Z Randolph or K Love IMHO will continue to put up numbers but ultimately fall short when it really matters

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
nixluva
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3/27/2015  5:03 PM
Greg Monroe comes in at #40 on the list in terms of Defensive Win Shares. That's not indicating he's terrible.


Rk	Player	                Pos	Age	Tm	G	MP	PER	TS%	OWS	DWS ▾	WS	WS/48	VORP
1	Draymond Green	        SF	24	GSW	71	2258	16.5	.543	3.0	4.9	7.9	.168	4.1
2	DeAndre Jordan	        C	26	LAC	72	2483	20.7	.644	6.4	4.6	10.9	.212	3.8
3	Marc Gasol	        C	30	MEM	71	2389	21.8	.560	5.0	4.2	9.2	.184	4.0
4	Nerlens Noel	        PF	20	PHI	68	2093	14.6	.493	-0.4	4.0	3.6	.083	1.4
5	Paul Millsap	        PF	29	ATL	68	2254	20.2	.567	3.8	4.0	7.8	.166	3.5
6	Tim Duncan	        PF	38	SAS	66	1944	21.9	.546	3.7	3.9	7.6	.187	3.3
7	Stephen Curry	        PG	26	GSW	69	2267	27.7	.627	9.8	3.8	13.5	.287	6.7
8	James Harden	        SG	25	HOU	70	2578	26.6	.602	10.3	3.8	14.1	.263	6.7
9	Andre Drummond	        C	21	DET	71	2144	20.8	.491	2.4	3.7	6.1	.138	0.8
10	Pau Gasol	        PF	34	CHI	69	2384	22.8	.553	5.5	3.7	9.2	.186	2.9
11	John Wall	        PG	24	WAS	72	2570	20.4	.530	3.9	3.7	7.6	.142	3.8
12	Giannis Antetokounmpo	SG	20	MIL	72	2265	15.3	        2.1	3.6	5.7	.120	1.6
13	Anthony Davis	        PF	21	NOP	57	2061	31.2	.600	8.6	3.5	12.0	.280	4.7
14	Kawhi Leonard	        SF	23	SAS	53	1692	21.3	.553	3.2	3.5	6.7	.191	3.2
15	Trevor Ariza	        SF	29	HOU	71	2529	12.5	.529	2.1	3.5	5.6	.105	2.4
16	Marcin Gortat	        C	30	WAS	72	2145	17.4	.581	3.3	3.4	6.7	.150	1.7
17	Rudy Gobert	        C	22	UTA	71	1782	21.4	.626	4.1	3.4	7.5	.202	3.5
18	LaMarcus Aldridge       PF	29	POR	62	2216	22.6	        4.3	3.4	7.6	.165	1.2
19	Danny Green	        SG	27	SAS	70	2059	16.7	.589	3.4	3.4	6.8	.158	3.6
20	Al Jefferson	        C	30	CHO	60	1871	19.8	.500	1.3	3.3	4.6	.117	1.2
21	Zach Randolph	        PF	33	MEM	61	1990	19.8	.538	3.1	3.2	6.3	.152	1.6
22	Al Horford	        C	28	ATL	67	2067	20.9	.554	4.4	3.1	7.5	.175	2.9
23	Tony Allen	        SG	33	MEM	62	1629	14.7	.528	0.9	3.1	4.0	.118	2.1
24	Andrew Bogut	        C	30	GSW	56	1330	15.7	.559	1.5	3.0	4.4	.160	2.0
25	Josh Smith	        PF	29	TOT	72	1993	14.7	.462	-1.3	3.0	1.8	.043	1.5
26	Khris Middleton	        PF	23	MIL	69	2058	15.7	.568	2.9	3.0	5.9	.137	1.9
27	Damian Lillard	        PG	24	POR	70	2535	21.3	.563	6.7	3.0	9.7	.184	4.8
28	DeMarcus Cousins	C	24	SAC	55	1856	25.0	        2.8	2.9	5.8	.149	3.0
29	Tyson Chandler	        C	32	DAL	66	2028	19.8	.697	6.2	2.9	9.0	.214	3.3
30	Derrick Favors	        PF	23	UTA	67	2121	22.5	.568	5.3	2.9	8.2	.185	2.6
31	Serge Ibaka	        PF	25	OKC	64	2116	16.6	.549	2.9	2.8	5.7	.129	1.5
32	Russell Westbrook       PG	26	OKC	57	1926	29.5	.538	6.4	2.8	9.3	.231	6.5
33	Nicolas Batum	        SF	26	POR	61	2067	12.8	.510	1.5	2.8	4.3	.101	2.5
34	Klay Thompson	        SG	24	GSW	66	2125	20.6	.589	4.7	2.8	7.5	.170	2.4
35	Roy Hibbert	        C	28	IND	66	1697	15.3	.507	1.0	2.7	3.6	.103	0.4
36	Kevin Love	        PF	26	CLE	68	2328	19.1	.560	5.5	2.7	8.2	.169	2.4
37	Chris Paul	        PG	29	LAC	72	2517	25.1	.583	10.3	2.7	13.1	.249	5.7
38	Eric Bledsoe	        PG	25	PHO	71	2447	19.2	.567	4.2	2.7	6.9	.135	3.2
39	Joakim Noah	        C	29	CHI	60	1844	15.8	.486	2.5	2.6	5.1	.132	2.6
40	Greg Monroe	       PF	24	DET	64	1991	21.1	.548	3.6	2.6	6.1	.148	1.9
Knixkik
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3/27/2015  5:09 PM
gunsnewing wrote:
Nalod wrote:I'll be fine if Phil thinks Monroe can be more than he is. A mans potential is worth more than a fans opinion.

+1

+1
Knixkik
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3/27/2015  5:09 PM
nixluva wrote:Greg Monroe comes in at #40 on the list in terms of Defensive Win Shares. That's not indicating he's terrible.


Rk	Player	                Pos	Age	Tm	G	MP	PER	TS%	OWS	DWS ▾	WS	WS/48	VORP
1	Draymond Green	        SF	24	GSW	71	2258	16.5	.543	3.0	4.9	7.9	.168	4.1
2	DeAndre Jordan	        C	26	LAC	72	2483	20.7	.644	6.4	4.6	10.9	.212	3.8
3	Marc Gasol	        C	30	MEM	71	2389	21.8	.560	5.0	4.2	9.2	.184	4.0
4	Nerlens Noel	        PF	20	PHI	68	2093	14.6	.493	-0.4	4.0	3.6	.083	1.4
5	Paul Millsap	        PF	29	ATL	68	2254	20.2	.567	3.8	4.0	7.8	.166	3.5
6	Tim Duncan	        PF	38	SAS	66	1944	21.9	.546	3.7	3.9	7.6	.187	3.3
7	Stephen Curry	        PG	26	GSW	69	2267	27.7	.627	9.8	3.8	13.5	.287	6.7
8	James Harden	        SG	25	HOU	70	2578	26.6	.602	10.3	3.8	14.1	.263	6.7
9	Andre Drummond	        C	21	DET	71	2144	20.8	.491	2.4	3.7	6.1	.138	0.8
10	Pau Gasol	        PF	34	CHI	69	2384	22.8	.553	5.5	3.7	9.2	.186	2.9
11	John Wall	        PG	24	WAS	72	2570	20.4	.530	3.9	3.7	7.6	.142	3.8
12	Giannis Antetokounmpo	SG	20	MIL	72	2265	15.3	        2.1	3.6	5.7	.120	1.6
13	Anthony Davis	        PF	21	NOP	57	2061	31.2	.600	8.6	3.5	12.0	.280	4.7
14	Kawhi Leonard	        SF	23	SAS	53	1692	21.3	.553	3.2	3.5	6.7	.191	3.2
15	Trevor Ariza	        SF	29	HOU	71	2529	12.5	.529	2.1	3.5	5.6	.105	2.4
16	Marcin Gortat	        C	30	WAS	72	2145	17.4	.581	3.3	3.4	6.7	.150	1.7
17	Rudy Gobert	        C	22	UTA	71	1782	21.4	.626	4.1	3.4	7.5	.202	3.5
18	LaMarcus Aldridge       PF	29	POR	62	2216	22.6	        4.3	3.4	7.6	.165	1.2
19	Danny Green	        SG	27	SAS	70	2059	16.7	.589	3.4	3.4	6.8	.158	3.6
20	Al Jefferson	        C	30	CHO	60	1871	19.8	.500	1.3	3.3	4.6	.117	1.2
21	Zach Randolph	        PF	33	MEM	61	1990	19.8	.538	3.1	3.2	6.3	.152	1.6
22	Al Horford	        C	28	ATL	67	2067	20.9	.554	4.4	3.1	7.5	.175	2.9
23	Tony Allen	        SG	33	MEM	62	1629	14.7	.528	0.9	3.1	4.0	.118	2.1
24	Andrew Bogut	        C	30	GSW	56	1330	15.7	.559	1.5	3.0	4.4	.160	2.0
25	Josh Smith	        PF	29	TOT	72	1993	14.7	.462	-1.3	3.0	1.8	.043	1.5
26	Khris Middleton	        PF	23	MIL	69	2058	15.7	.568	2.9	3.0	5.9	.137	1.9
27	Damian Lillard	        PG	24	POR	70	2535	21.3	.563	6.7	3.0	9.7	.184	4.8
28	DeMarcus Cousins	C	24	SAC	55	1856	25.0	        2.8	2.9	5.8	.149	3.0
29	Tyson Chandler	        C	32	DAL	66	2028	19.8	.697	6.2	2.9	9.0	.214	3.3
30	Derrick Favors	        PF	23	UTA	67	2121	22.5	.568	5.3	2.9	8.2	.185	2.6
31	Serge Ibaka	        PF	25	OKC	64	2116	16.6	.549	2.9	2.8	5.7	.129	1.5
32	Russell Westbrook       PG	26	OKC	57	1926	29.5	.538	6.4	2.8	9.3	.231	6.5
33	Nicolas Batum	        SF	26	POR	61	2067	12.8	.510	1.5	2.8	4.3	.101	2.5
34	Klay Thompson	        SG	24	GSW	66	2125	20.6	.589	4.7	2.8	7.5	.170	2.4
35	Roy Hibbert	        C	28	IND	66	1697	15.3	.507	1.0	2.7	3.6	.103	0.4
36	Kevin Love	        PF	26	CLE	68	2328	19.1	.560	5.5	2.7	8.2	.169	2.4
37	Chris Paul	        PG	29	LAC	72	2517	25.1	.583	10.3	2.7	13.1	.249	5.7
38	Eric Bledsoe	        PG	25	PHO	71	2447	19.2	.567	4.2	2.7	6.9	.135	3.2
39	Joakim Noah	        C	29	CHI	60	1844	15.8	.486	2.5	2.6	5.1	.132	2.6
40	Greg Monroe	       PF	24	DET	64	1991	21.1	.548	3.6	2.6	6.1	.148	1.9

He's not a bad defender at all. Not sure where this rep originated from. He is average.
holfresh
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3/27/2015  5:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/27/2015  5:21 PM
There is something wrong with a ranking system that has KLove ahead of LeBron..Curry and Harden ahead of Tony Allen, etc..Zach Randolf on its list..
nixluva
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3/27/2015  5:47 PM
holfresh wrote:There is something wrong with a ranking system that has KLove ahead of LeBron..Curry and Harden ahead of Tony Allen, etc..Zach Randolf on its list..

The whole point is to try and take opinion and passion out of the equation as much as possible. These metrics are not perfect but they try to tell the truth. The player gets credit for actual defensive plays including rebounds which is a huge part of the equation some forget to give credit for.
Bonn1997
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3/27/2015  5:51 PM
holfresh wrote:There is something wrong with a ranking system that has KLove ahead of LeBron..Curry and Harden ahead of Tony Allen, etc..Zach Randolf on its list..

It's not wrong. It's just giving a lot of weight to rebounding. The NBA player tracking data and 82games data give better info. about man to man defense. His #s aren't terrible but they are below average there. His opponent's PER is 18.0 (with 15.0 being average) and his man is scoring at 54.7% near the rim (I think average is closer to 53 or 54%).
Bonn1997
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3/27/2015  5:53 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:There is something wrong with a ranking system that has KLove ahead of LeBron..Curry and Harden ahead of Tony Allen, etc..Zach Randolf on its list..

The whole point is to try and take opinion and passion out of the equation as much as possible. These metrics are not perfect but they try to tell the truth. The player gets credit for actual defensive plays including rebounds which is a huge part of the equation some forget to give credit for.


I do agree with the last part. A lot of people forget defensive rebounding is part of defense and offensive rebounding is part of offense. I still don't want Monroe for more than 8 or 9 mil per, though, and I assume he'll get much more than that
holfresh
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3/27/2015  6:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/27/2015  6:16 PM
nixluva wrote:
holfresh wrote:There is something wrong with a ranking system that has KLove ahead of LeBron..Curry and Harden ahead of Tony Allen, etc..Zach Randolf on its list..

The whole point is to try and take opinion and passion out of the equation as much as possible. These metrics are not perfect but they try to tell the truth. The player gets credit for actual defensive plays including rebounds which is a huge part of the equation some forget to give credit for.

You get credit for rebounds by saying its a rebound..Rebounds play a major role in the game..If you add rebounds to numbers to prop up your defensive stats, to make you seem capable, then this is inaccurate and therefore misleading...Because what is happening here is that I'm looking at one number and it's telling me that overall, KLove is more valuable defensively than LeBron which we all know is insane...
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Pistons 4-1 without Monroe since he hurt his knee.
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