franco12 wrote:Briggs - you are right. Is there a limit to how much we can spend scouting? Dolan has wasted money on FA, tax penalties, etc. And what he should have done was hired every single scout in the world and used the draft to add impact players cheaply. For every time we traded out of the second round, we should have bought in, and with what should be a competitive advantage in overseas player intelligence, found gems that others overlooked or simply couldn't find.

We should be able to add a Mozgov type player every year.

Instead, we spend it like we don't care- like a drunk sailor.

Mosgov is great. Prigs was a bit too late but is another good player. Good exmaples.

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Briggs... do you see this trend with Phil continuing? I mean he bought or traded into the 2nd round for the french kid, Thanisis and Early, all very different types of players. He used the D league/Summer league to scout and groom Galloway, and while no star he's got the makings of a very good role player in the league for many years to come. Also Thanisis had some very good moments down there and become a better player.

I agree 100% with you post. I mean we have all been dying for the Knicks to look at some of these guys who slipped through the cracks and we get Jon Bender, Quintel Woods, Shawn Williams, etc etc etc... I mean Lin was the only guy and lets face it that was a perfect storm and most would agree LUCKY.

However I think if Phil has shown anything its a desire to look at a lot of players and groom from within. I mean you have been critical of some of the 10 day contract guys like Lance and Lou but I think most thing Admunson is a good fit here moving forward, but nicely balances by looking at younger guys with far more upside.

Dont you see the trend you mentioned above changing? I mean the guy bought in and drafted 3 guys in the 2nd round.

I think Jim Dolan owns the Knicks he has not valued the draft pick and hes the final voice. My bet is he is outraged at the record and will do anything just to make us some what competitive. Even if our draft pick can be considered a core piece of potential success for a decade--I think his mentality is just different. I dont think he understands basketball beyond the current names he hears and see's. On the hockey side he knows even less--so Glenn Sather does have the ability to do his own gig--which is working out well for Rangers fans. But in basketball--he does "know" the names and thats what the basis of our franchise tries to be about "some how get the name player".

Even some of these comments I hear--well Phil is almost 70 and we have Carmelo. Right so? I expect us to us e potentially the number 1 pick to scour the NBA to find on team willing to trade a name player and then use what left in FA to get a "third" guy to join ranks to give us that "big three" whether it makes sense or not. I think even with pick #1 we will trade it

Briggs your right... cant change history and your quoting accurately but what will make you change your mind? Dolan (not defending the little troll) has done everything he's said so far. Phil has said the pick will be used to groom a player. I know there are a lot of reports about the Knicks trading the pick and there should be... its Phil's responsibility to do his DD, and there maybe trades that make sense.

gunsnewing wrote:I don't know if dolan and Torts we're buddies but Dolan loved him. Particularly because he would go after the media and embarrass them

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Briggs... do you see this trend with Phil continuing? I mean he bought or traded into the 2nd round for the french kid, Thanisis and Early, all very different types of players. He used the D league/Summer league to scout and groom Galloway, and while no star he's got the makings of a very good role player in the league for many years to come. Also Thanisis had some very good moments down there and become a better player.

I agree 100% with you post. I mean we have all been dying for the Knicks to look at some of these guys who slipped through the cracks and we get Jon Bender, Quintel Woods, Shawn Williams, etc etc etc... I mean Lin was the only guy and lets face it that was a perfect storm and most would agree LUCKY.

However I think if Phil has shown anything its a desire to look at a lot of players and groom from within. I mean you have been critical of some of the 10 day contract guys like Lance and Lou but I think most thing Admunson is a good fit here moving forward, but nicely balances by looking at younger guys with far more upside.

Dont you see the trend you mentioned above changing? I mean the guy bought in and drafted 3 guys in the 2nd round.

I think Jim Dolan owns the Knicks he has not valued the draft pick and hes the final voice. My bet is he is outraged at the record and will do anything just to make us some what competitive. Even if our draft pick can be considered a core piece of potential success for a decade--I think his mentality is just different. I dont think he understands basketball beyond the current names he hears and see's. On the hockey side he knows even less--so Glenn Sather does have the ability to do his own gig--which is working out well for Rangers fans. But in basketball--he does "know" the names and thats what the basis of our franchise tries to be about "some how get the name player".

Even some of these comments I hear--well Phil is almost 70 and we have Carmelo. Right so? I expect us to us e potentially the number 1 pick to scour the NBA to find on team willing to trade a name player and then use what left in FA to get a "third" guy to join ranks to give us that "big three" whether it makes sense or not. I think even with pick #1 we will trade it

I mean Dolan came out and said he doesnt know basketball and Phil has full autonomy. He's also shown the ability with Sather to back off and let his people run the teams. Remember Sather fired the coach who was Dolan's buddy and that says alot.

Briggs your right... cant change history and your quoting accurately but what will make you change your mind? Dolan (not defending the little troll) has done everything he's said so far. Phil has said the pick will be used to groom a player. I know there are a lot of reports about the Knicks trading the pick and there should be... its Phil's responsibility to do his DD, and there maybe trades that make sense.

There is aggressive history on my side.

Ill view it like this. Is there a team out there that might view Jahill Okafor or KAT as better prospects than what they have now? Would Atlanta say well Al Horford is a fine player but he is 29 and has only 1 year on his contract remaining. I think it is GREAT business to sell high on him for Okafor--in fact spectacular business and we know the Knicks will do it. Jim Dolan is going to do this--in fact he'll wedge Phil Jackson up by his underwear at MSG headquarters if he hesitates. Thats what I believe. Jim Dolan look at other clubs and believes that their fortune can be ours and has always used the picks to facilitate his visions.

If I was running the Hawks would I trade Horford for Okafor--how fast can I get a plane to Duke?

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Briggs... do you see this trend with Phil continuing? I mean he bought or traded into the 2nd round for the french kid, Thanisis and Early, all very different types of players. He used the D league/Summer league to scout and groom Galloway, and while no star he's got the makings of a very good role player in the league for many years to come. Also Thanisis had some very good moments down there and become a better player.

I agree 100% with you post. I mean we have all been dying for the Knicks to look at some of these guys who slipped through the cracks and we get Jon Bender, Quintel Woods, Shawn Williams, etc etc etc... I mean Lin was the only guy and lets face it that was a perfect storm and most would agree LUCKY.

However I think if Phil has shown anything its a desire to look at a lot of players and groom from within. I mean you have been critical of some of the 10 day contract guys like Lance and Lou but I think most thing Admunson is a good fit here moving forward, but nicely balances by looking at younger guys with far more upside.

Dont you see the trend you mentioned above changing? I mean the guy bought in and drafted 3 guys in the 2nd round.

I think Jim Dolan owns the Knicks he has not valued the draft pick and hes the final voice. My bet is he is outraged at the record and will do anything just to make us some what competitive. Even if our draft pick can be considered a core piece of potential success for a decade--I think his mentality is just different. I dont think he understands basketball beyond the current names he hears and see's. On the hockey side he knows even less--so Glenn Sather does have the ability to do his own gig--which is working out well for Rangers fans. But in basketball--he does "know" the names and thats what the basis of our franchise tries to be about "some how get the name player".

Even some of these comments I hear--well Phil is almost 70 and we have Carmelo. Right so? I expect us to us e potentially the number 1 pick to scour the NBA to find on team willing to trade a name player and then use what left in FA to get a "third" guy to join ranks to give us that "big three" whether it makes sense or not. I think even with pick #1 we will trade it

I mean Dolan came out and said he doesnt know basketball and Phil has full autonomy. He's also shown the ability with Sather to back off and let his people run the teams. Remember Sather fired the coach who was Dolan's buddy and that says alot.

Briggs your right... cant change history and your quoting accurately but what will make you change your mind? Dolan (not defending the little troll) has done everything he's said so far. Phil has said the pick will be used to groom a player. I know there are a lot of reports about the Knicks trading the pick and there should be... its Phil's responsibility to do his DD, and there maybe trades that make sense.

There is aggressive history on my side.

Ill view it like this. Is there a team out there that might view Jahill Okafor or KAT as better prospects than what they have now? Would Atlanta say well Al Horford is a fine player but he is 29 and has only 1 year on his contract remaining. I think it is GREAT business to sell high on him for Okafor--in fact spectacular business and we know the Knicks will do it. Jim Dolan is going to do this--in fact he'll wedge Phil Jackson up by his underwear at MSG headquarters if he hesitates. Thats what I believe. Jim Dolan look at other clubs and believes that their fortune can be ours and has always used the picks to facilitate his visions.

If I was running the Hawks would I trade Horford for Okafor--how fast can I get a plane to Duke?

The Knicks (12-51) have the worst record in the league and are in line for a very high lottery pick. Jackson said he hopes to find a future franchise player in the draft who can help the Knicks for the next 10 years.

But his main focus will be on finding the right mix of free agents who can help turn the team around quickly.

Think about it... you think if Dolan overrides Phil he stays? He doesnt need the money and he would prefer to be on the West coast. He will tell Dolan to piss off and get another stooge and go cuddle with Jeanie. Dolan has backed himself into a corner here. If Phil walks after one year because he "didnt have the autonomy he was promised" where does that leave Dolan? He's dumb but not that dumb.

Briggs your spinning your wheels here. It may sound like Im defending Dolan and Im not, we have straightshot for that. Im just telling you what I see, and there is pretty clear evidence of this pattern changing. Dolan is doing what he did with the Rangers. Could that change? Sure.. but right now he's been true to that world.

Remember, Phil believes the Knicks need him MUCH more than he needs the Knicks. That alone puts him in a position that no other person Dolan has hired in the past has. Phil respects Dolan as the man who runs MSG, thats being proffesional, but you think him another Dolan stooge who will carry out his will? Furthest thing from the truth.

I think we have to wait until the season unfolds thru the draft and free agency before anyone can come to our Emotional Rescue.........

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Briggs... do you see this trend with Phil continuing? I mean he bought or traded into the 2nd round for the french kid, Thanisis and Early, all very different types of players. He used the D league/Summer league to scout and groom Galloway, and while no star he's got the makings of a very good role player in the league for many years to come. Also Thanisis had some very good moments down there and become a better player.

I agree 100% with you post. I mean we have all been dying for the Knicks to look at some of these guys who slipped through the cracks and we get Jon Bender, Quintel Woods, Shawn Williams, etc etc etc... I mean Lin was the only guy and lets face it that was a perfect storm and most would agree LUCKY.

However I think if Phil has shown anything its a desire to look at a lot of players and groom from within. I mean you have been critical of some of the 10 day contract guys like Lance and Lou but I think most thing Admunson is a good fit here moving forward, but nicely balances by looking at younger guys with far more upside.

Dont you see the trend you mentioned above changing? I mean the guy bought in and drafted 3 guys in the 2nd round.

I think Jim Dolan owns the Knicks he has not valued the draft pick and hes the final voice. My bet is he is outraged at the record and will do anything just to make us some what competitive. Even if our draft pick can be considered a core piece of potential success for a decade--I think his mentality is just different. I dont think he understands basketball beyond the current names he hears and see's. On the hockey side he knows even less--so Glenn Sather does have the ability to do his own gig--which is working out well for Rangers fans. But in basketball--he does "know" the names and thats what the basis of our franchise tries to be about "some how get the name player".

Even some of these comments I hear--well Phil is almost 70 and we have Carmelo. Right so? I expect us to us e potentially the number 1 pick to scour the NBA to find on team willing to trade a name player and then use what left in FA to get a "third" guy to join ranks to give us that "big three" whether it makes sense or not. I think even with pick #1 we will trade it

I mean Dolan came out and said he doesnt know basketball and Phil has full autonomy. He's also shown the ability with Sather to back off and let his people run the teams. Remember Sather fired the coach who was Dolan's buddy and that says alot.

Briggs your right... cant change history and your quoting accurately but what will make you change your mind? Dolan (not defending the little troll) has done everything he's said so far. Phil has said the pick will be used to groom a player. I know there are a lot of reports about the Knicks trading the pick and there should be... its Phil's responsibility to do his DD, and there maybe trades that make sense.

There is aggressive history on my side.

Ill view it like this. Is there a team out there that might view Jahill Okafor or KAT as better prospects than what they have now? Would Atlanta say well Al Horford is a fine player but he is 29 and has only 1 year on his contract remaining. I think it is GREAT business to sell high on him for Okafor--in fact spectacular business and we know the Knicks will do it. Jim Dolan is going to do this--in fact he'll wedge Phil Jackson up by his underwear at MSG headquarters if he hesitates. Thats what I believe. Jim Dolan look at other clubs and believes that their fortune can be ours and has always used the picks to facilitate his visions.

If I was running the Hawks would I trade Horford for Okafor--how fast can I get a plane to Duke?

Actually the patterns and history of transactions reveal almost the exact opposite of what you are claiming. In recent history under Dolan, the Knicks did not make trades/transactions like they have done this year. If they went on a losing streak, they almost always immediately panicked and traded away future picks for risky veterans who could help keep the team afloat and potentially make a run at just making the playoffs by the skin of their teeth. Even when the Knicks were tanking under Walsh, the mantra was to clear roster space as quickly as possible by packaging picks to unload higher salary guys.

This year the trending has been pretty much the complete opposite. Even the Tyson trade brought back 3 second rounders. PJ has not given away any future picks. The Prigioni trade brought back a younger PG as well as 2 future second rounders. Unloading Smith and Shumpert who did not seem like good fits in NY anymore would have never happened in the past, and the Knicks also received a 2nd rounder with Amundson and Thomas. So while not perfect, the modus operandi is almost 180 degrees different from past GM regimes.