You put together a team that is balanced and has post threats that can actually score inside and put pressure on teams like GS. You have to get to the line more and slow the game down to more of a half court game. You can't just outrun or outshoot them. I think you have to find a way to pound them inside and make them play at your pace. We can't expect to be able to build a team exactly like the Warriors. We can only realistically build a team in a more traditional manner.

We have to think about what players are actually available to us. We do need more 3pt shooting to be sure, but they have to be 3 and D types who can guard the perimeter effectively or it won't work. Make no mistake i'm not looking to build a BIG SLOW TEAM. We need bigs that can also move and have range defensively. This will help defensively when they get caught on a smalls they at least would have a chance to defend. This is why a kid like Draymond Green is so special. He allows them to defend at a high level on the perimeter and of course he's not the only one on GS like that. In general they don't have big slow guys on their roster. If the Knicks had a kid like Cauley-Stein that would help a lot. That in combination with better defense from our SF and SG would really make a huge difference. Obviously with Melo on the team you will have issues defensively during his minutes so you need to make sure you have guys on the floor with him that can defend with range. We simply can't put lineups on the floor with multiple bad defenders and expect to win.

I think in terms of the draft i'd go after Towns. I think he would help to form a core that can defend the way we need and also be effective in the half court offensively. With Towns he may not be dominant offensively right out of the box, but I know he can defend at a high level right off the bat.

Obviously i'd LOVE to get a kid like Butler. Again he'd enhance the teams defense greatly. Overpaying for him would be worth ever penny IMO. If we couldn't get Butler then you have to keep going down the line with guards like Matthews or Danny Green. The point is that the starting lineup has to be formed in such a way that you have a solid roster defensively and one that makes sense offensively. IF we can chase shooters off the 3pt line and force them into our shot blocking bigs that could really have an impact against teams that want to play this spread offensive style. It's just my theory of one direction we could go in.

That doesnt work, teams dont win titles like that, so kudos for finally recognizing that.

As far as the warriors are concerned, I'm not sure why they are the bar. Their team is beyond solid, but can that transfer to the playoffs where nearly every team out west is solid as well? Remains to be seen and until then they are just a regular season team.

The Knicks just need to stay the course and build through the draft, and not overpaying by wide margins just to get players. I do like Green and Butler, but on max deals. Thats what those guys so good...they can produce at high levels on cheaper deals.

I just want my team to be competitive for the moment. I want to win as many games as possible. If along the way, we become lucky enough to compete for a championship, it will be icing on the cake.

Knicks1969 wrote:I know that the goal is to always position yourself to play for a championship, but how many new teams have won the big prize the last twenty years? Last I checked, there has only been a handful of teams that have won: Chicago, Lakers, Detroit, Spurs, and Miami. Dallas is perhaps the only team that was lucky enough to get in amongst the aforementioned.

I just want my team to be competitive for the moment. I want to win as many games as possible. If along the way, we become lucky enough to compete for a championship, it will be icing on the cake.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I must say thanks for the perception adjustment. You finally recognize that you have to build a team that most importantly plays defense. I recall all summer you were actually stating the team could be average defensively as long as they have an elite offense.

That doesnt work, teams dont win titles like that, so kudos for finally recognizing that.

As far as the warriors are concerned, I'm not sure why they are the bar. Their team is beyond solid, but can that transfer to the playoffs where nearly every team out west is solid as well? Remains to be seen and until then they are just a regular season team.

The Knicks just need to stay the course and build through the draft, and not overpaying by wide margins just to get players. I do like Green and Butler, but on max deals. Thats what those guys so good...they can produce at high levels on cheaper deals.

I've always known the importance of Defense. I've been watching and playing basketball for 40 years and you think that fact would escape me. Sometimes the title teams are better offensively than they are defensively. There are far fewer #1 overall defensive teams that won the title than you might think and more teams that were skewed more towards offense than you might think.

2014	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2013	NBA	Miami Heat	   2nd  Offense 9th Defense
2012	NBA	Miami Heat	   8th  Offense 4th Defense
2011	NBA	Dallas Mavericks   8th  Offense 8th Defense
2010	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 11th Offense 4th Defense
2009	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 3rd  Offense 6th Defense
2008	NBA	Boston Celtics	   10th Offense 1st Defense
2007	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  5th  Offense 2nd Defense
2006	NBA	Miami Heat	   7th  Offense 9th Defense
2005	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2004	NBA	Detroit Pistons	   18th Offense 2nd Defense
2003	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2002	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 7th Defense
2001	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 21st Defense
2000	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 5th  Offense 1st Defense  

My point about offense earlier this year had to do with what the Knicks actually had in front of them. Meaning this team didn't really have any way of being a top defensive team at the time. Sometimes it makes more sense to go with what is your strength. You have to actually HAVE defensive talent at more than just a couple of spots. All we really had was Tyson and maybe Shump. Still i'm not now advocating for one way defense only players. I'm advocating having more 2 way players. There's a huge difference. We'd have just as little chance to win with defense only players because they aren't effective enough on the other end.

The mention of the Warriors was more of a metaphor for the way teams are trying to play today. You could also look at Houston or Atlanta. Teams that are looking to use the 3 or uptempo styles of play. In any event i'm advocating that the Knicks continue to move in the direction they're already moving. Which is to build a more balanced and traditional style of roster and offense that isn't predicated on 3pt'ers and the spread offense. There are good 2 way players that the Knicks can get in Free Agency and the Draft who could fit in the system we play.

Phil can't make the mistake of going with big plodders tho. We have to have bigs that can move on D but also score on the other end. This is entirely possible if Phil targets the right players and we get the right player in the draft. I actually think it makes more sense to pay for a Green or Butler than to just try and save money and bring in players that won't be as effective on D. We can already get one reasonably priced defender in the draft if we're fortunate. The Money spent on a good 2 way player in Free Agency would be well spent IMO. Then you can find role players like Ajinca who may be affordable. If we're willing to take a risk on Matthews he may be more affordable as well after his injury. Maybe he'd take a short deal to prove himself.

Playing ball for 40 yrs is great....But have you been playing winning basketball for 40 yrs. Just playing....But that's a lot of experience there. I'm probably around 30 yrs, unless you count the years after I started walking, shooting on those plastic hoops.

I agree with having bigs that are nimble enough to guard multiple positions and play both ends. I think the time of the big plotters has come and gone. Bigs now a days are very mobile, and some can dribble and shoot like a guard. The problem I have is passing on good talent, just because they don't fit the triangle system. I hope this system doesn't force us to miss out on talented players. Watching JR flourish in Cleveland didn't give me any warm feelings about the triangle. And I hope other FA's aren't thinking the same way. It appears the Triangle system fits Euro players like Shevd. But what about the athletic 2 way role players that jump out the gym and play off of instincts?

We saw that Phil brought in his usual type of bigs who can do a little of everything and if he can get a more talented version he'll do that. We saw him bring in Galloway who is a tough minded guard with length and Shved who is a big guard who can play both guard spots. Again this is something he's had before and makes sense for his system. So it's not really a mystery what kind of players would appeal to Phil and who he might go after.

We're limited by what is actually available. There's no savior out there to be had so all you can do is make smart decisions and use practical team building. So the draft will take care of itself when we know what pick we have. Free Agency is where as Phil says, this team is going to be built.

IMO there are a few SG's, PF's and C's that we should go after and who would really make a huge difference in terms of wins. Obviously some are going to be too expensive due to their length of time in the league, but the younger ones are well worth the investment IMO.

Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
1	James Harden, HOU	64	36.7	.603	21.3	12.1	30.3	2.8	14.6	8.7	26.65	566.5	18.9
2	Jimmy Butler, CHI	55	38.9	.582	14.7	6.7	20.6	5.1	11.3	8.3	21.30	345.1	11.5
3	Klay Thompson, GS	63	32.5	.591	12.6	8.8	25.3	1.1	9.2	5.3	20.71	311.9	10.4
4	Dwyane Wade, MIA	47	32.0	.538	18.5	11.9	32.5	3.7	10.4	7.1	22.12	260.6	8.7
5	Monta Ellis, DAL	67	33.6	.513	17.0	9.6	26.7	1.6	6.3	3.9	17.56	237.3	7.9
6	Louis Williams, TOR	64	24.6	.563	11.6	7.4	25.0	1.5	7.3	4.4	19.84	219.9	7.3
        Tyreke Evans, NO	63	34.6	.500	24.5	11.7	26.1	3.5	13.8	8.7	17.22	218.3	7.3
8	Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX	62	33.3	.578	20.5	10.7	21.6	3.3	8.4	5.9	17.31	209.9	7.0
9	Wesley Matthews, POR	60	33.7	.586	13.4	7.8	18.6	2.1	9.5	5.9	16.14	170.5	5.7
        Jamal Crawford, LAC	60	26.9	.539	13.0	7.7	25.9	1.2	7.1	4.2	17.57	170.1	5.7
11	Victor Oladipo, ORL	57	34.9	.536	17.4	12.1	23.3	2.3	11.5	6.8	16.21	169.5	5.6
        Danny Green, SA	63	29.4	.590	13.7	9.0	16.3	2.9	14.4	8.7	16.53	166.6	5.6
13	Khris Middleton, MIL	63	29.0	.573	14.2	8.9	18.3	2.4	15.1	8.9	16.35	159.5	5.3
14	Kyle Korver, ATL	63	33.1	.714	20.0	11.5	13.5	0.8	13.1	7.2	15.08	142.5	4.8

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
1	Anthony Davis, NO	53	35.6	.602	7.7	6.0	25.8	8.6	24.4	16.5	31.52	563.5	18.8
2	Pau Gasol, CHI	        63	34.8	.549	12.7	9.9	23.0	9.2	28.1	18.8	22.48	359.0	12.0
3	Derrick Favors, UTAH	61	31.4	.574	9.0	8.9	21.7	9.8	20.1	15.1	22.78	322.5	10.7
        LaMarcus Aldridge, POR	56	36.0	.521	6.7	7.1	27.4	8.0	22.8	15.6	22.13	319.9	10.7
5	Blake Griffin, LAC	51	35.3	.550	18.5	8.0	27.5	6.3	17.7	12.1	23.20	314.4	10.5
6	Greg Monroe, DET	64	31.1	.548	10.8	11.9	22.7	11.2	25.7	18.1	21.13	286.2	9.5
7	Tim Duncan, SA	        59	29.7	.539	16.3	10.3	21.6	9.2	27.2	18.3	21.65	265.4	8.8
8	Paul Millsap, ATL	63	33.1	.566	14.7	11.7	22.1	6.7	20.1	13.6	19.90	261.6	8.7
9	Kevin Love, CLE	        64	34.4	.560	12.3	8.2	20.5	6.6	26.7	16.8	19.34	257.6	8.6
10	Zach Randolph, MEM	55	32.7	.539	10.0	11.6	22.6	11.9	27.3	19.6	19.98	227.4	7.6
RK	PLAYER	GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
21	Jordan Hill, LAL	59	27.6	.503	9.3	9.9	20.7	9.8	22.1	15.7	16.53	144.3	4.8
        Amar'e Stoudemire, D/NY	45	22.7	.598	7.3	12.9	21.0	10.2	21.3	15.6	19.97	142.6	4.8
23	Marreese Speights, GS	60	16.8	.547	7.5	9.5	26.2	10.3	18.2	14.4	19.40	132.0	4.4
24	Joakim Noah, CHI	55	30.8	.478	31.3	13.2	14.5	12.4	22.4	17.5	15.37	120.6	4.0
25	Dwight Howard, HOU	32	32.2	.582	7.6	16.6	21.2	9.6	28.2	18.9	18.17	116.3	3.9
        Omer Asik, NO	        61	26.1	.550	10.1	14.6	12.8	13.7	29.5	21.6	15.48	116.1	3.9
27	Alexis Ajinca, NO	51	14.0	.623	8.9	13.9	19.4	12.6	25.5	19.1	21.24	113.5	3.8
28	Robin Lopez, POR	40	28.4	.566	9.1	11.3	14.6	13.1	13.3	13.2	16.63	102.1	3.4
29	Roy Hibbert, IND	59	25.4	.499	8.3	11.5	19.6	8.8	22.0	15.5	15.06	99.7	3.3

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I must say thanks for the perception adjustment. You finally recognize that you have to build a team that most importantly plays defense. I recall all summer you were actually stating the team could be average defensively as long as they have an elite offense.

That doesnt work, teams dont win titles like that, so kudos for finally recognizing that.

As far as the warriors are concerned, I'm not sure why they are the bar. Their team is beyond solid, but can that transfer to the playoffs where nearly every team out west is solid as well? Remains to be seen and until then they are just a regular season team.

The Knicks just need to stay the course and build through the draft, and not overpaying by wide margins just to get players. I do like Green and Butler, but on max deals. Thats what those guys so good...they can produce at high levels on cheaper deals.

I've always known the importance of Defense. I've been watching and playing basketball for 40 years and you think that fact would escape me. Sometimes the title teams are better offensively than they are defensively. There are far fewer #1 overall defensive teams that won the title than you might think and more teams that were skewed more towards offense than you might think.

2014	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2013	NBA	Miami Heat	   2nd  Offense 9th Defense
2012	NBA	Miami Heat	   8th  Offense 4th Defense
2011	NBA	Dallas Mavericks   8th  Offense 8th Defense
2010	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 11th Offense 4th Defense
2009	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 3rd  Offense 6th Defense
2008	NBA	Boston Celtics	   10th Offense 1st Defense
2007	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  5th  Offense 2nd Defense
2006	NBA	Miami Heat	   7th  Offense 9th Defense
2005	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2004	NBA	Detroit Pistons	   18th Offense 2nd Defense
2003	NBA	San Antonio Spurs  7th  Offense 3rd Defense
2002	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 7th Defense
2001	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 2nd  Offense 21st Defense
2000	NBA	Los Angeles Lakers 5th  Offense 1st Defense  

My point about offense earlier this year had to do with what the Knicks actually had in front of them. Meaning this team didn't really have any way of being a top defensive team at the time. Sometimes it makes more sense to go with what is your strength. You have to actually HAVE defensive talent at more than just a couple of spots. All we really had was Tyson and maybe Shump. Still i'm not now advocating for one way defense only players. I'm advocating having more 2 way players. There's a huge difference. We'd have just as little chance to win with defense only players because they aren't effective enough on the other end.

Look at that list and notice one constant. Outside of the 2001 Lakers EVERY team had a top 10 defense. Even to hammer the point home, out of those 15 years...9 of 15 had a top 5 defense, and 9 of those defenses were better than their offense.

Defense outweighs the offense, you just provided the proof yourself. The point of the Knicks this season should have been obvious the would NOT have any success....they wernt gonna be a good defensive team, not even average, and there's nothing wrong recognizing the team was severely flawed.

nixluva wrote:The mention of the Warriors was more of a metaphor for the way teams are trying to play today. You could also look at Houston or Atlanta. Teams that are looking to use the 3 or uptempo styles of play. In any event i'm advocating that the Knicks continue to move in the direction they're already moving. Which is to build a more balanced and traditional style of roster and offense that isn't predicated on 3pt'ers and the spread offense. There are good 2 way players that the Knicks can get in Free Agency and the Draft who could fit in the system we play.

Phil can't make the mistake of going with big plodders tho. We have to have bigs that can move on D but also score on the other end. This is entirely possible if Phil targets the right players and we get the right player in the draft. I actually think it makes more sense to pay for a Green or Butler than to just try and save money and bring in players that won't be as effective on D. We can already get one reasonably priced defender in the draft if we're fortunate. The Money spent on a good 2 way player in Free Agency would be well spent IMO. Then you can find role players like Ajinca who may be affordable. If we're willing to take a risk on Matthews he may be more affordable as well after his injury. Maybe he'd take a short deal to prove himself.

Personally I dont think there is a "right way or right players", but rather what is "effective". I dont see GS or Atlanta winning a title as currently constructed and that should be the goal of it's system and assembly. i want to see what GS can do in a playoff series first. The Hawks are one key player away...they need a playoff scorer. Houston imo could win a title this year as they have the solid blend of offense and defense, and getting their best player in harden to play some defense is really paying in.

But the Knicks shouldnt be looking at anyone else's "mold", but establish their own. thats how titles are won.

You seem to be arguing with yourself. No one has ever suggested that defense isn't important. Who doesn't ever want a team with a top 10 defense? The point was that if you CAN'T defend at a high level due to a lack of DEFENSIVE TALENT that you could look to strengthen your offense and there are EXAMPLES of that actually working. No it's not the optimal way of doing it but it could be done. That was my only point. I'm not anti defense in fact as a player that is my calling card i've always been a defensive player. The myth that I don't care about defense comes from my statements on this board referring to offense but i've NEVER suggested that defense isn't important. How could anyone survive the 90's as a Knicks fan and hate defense?

Here's the thing that you're ignoring, 13 of the title teams had a top 10 offense. I think tho that you want a BALANCED team as that is really what most great teams have. The lesson is that having the #1 defense doesn't guarantee you a title team!!! So back to my main point which is that we have to build a team that has enough quality defense while still being able to play efficient offense. There are players who will be available that Phil can target who will help this team to be able to defend at a high level and also score enough to deal with the high octane offensive teams in the league. The way that the league rules are now it's giving offense an advantage. ON top of that the way teams are playing is making them more efficient. Today you wouldn't be able to win with Detroit Pistons team.

If you're now saying you need both offense and defense, then what is the point of all this verbiage?

You start from what you've got and build from there. If you know Melo is on your frontline, theories don't mean much if you put low quality frontline defenders next to him. Every team is built piece by piece and with our baseline being there is only one starter right now who is named Melo, you know you'll need a superior defender on the frontline.

Dealing with this reality is the only thing controllable, not historical references to past champions since this team is not going to contend for years if ever.

The # 1 fallacy behind any theories about team construction is this team will be constructed around the Triangle. As soon as Phil committed to Melo, the second coming of the Anti-Triangle himself, anyone could see this triangle talk was the fantasies of a man reflecting on his past glories, but who may not be firmly grounded in the present day realities of the NBA.

Phil dis-credited his own Triangle talk by making Melo the core of the team. What would be refreshing is if Phil stops embarrassing himself with Triangle talk and simply gets players who can blend well with Melo. That's all he can do at this point. The rest is just hot air.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:If you're now saying you need both offense and defense, then what is the point of all this verbiage?

You start from what you've got and build from there. If you know Melo is on your frontline, theories don't mean much if you put low quality frontline defenders next to him. Every team is built piece by piece and with our baseline being there is only one starter right now who is named Melo, you know you'll need a superior defender on the frontline.

Dealing with this reality is the only thing controllable, not historical references to past champions since this team is not going to contend for years if ever.

The # 1 fallacy behind any theories about team construction is this team will be constructed around the Triangle. As soon as Phil committed to Melo, the second coming of the Anti-Triangle himself, anyone could see this triangle talk was the fantasies of a man reflecting on his past glories, but who may not be firmly grounded in the present day realities of the NBA.

Phil dis-credited his own Triangle talk by making Melo the core of the team. What would be refreshing is if Phil stops embarrassing himself with Triangle talk and simply gets players who can blend well with Melo. That's all he can do at this point. The rest is just hot air.

This is the dilemma of trying to converse on a forum. You're complete thoughts on a subject are hard to make clear when you're always addressing specific topics and not your overall philosophy on the game as a whole. Just because i've talked about trying to find a way for this team to be successful by working with it's strengths doesn't mean that i'm saying all that matters is offense. No one has ever made such a stupid claim. It's always been about having a balanced team but you can't just wish that you're team can be strong on both sides of the ball. You actually need Defensive Talent Too. My points about offense were predicated on what kind of players we had and who was actually available to us. You can't just ignore offense and think that's going to work either. This team has a chance now to restructure and create a more balanced roster.

The comments about Phil and the Triangle aren't worth getting into. He has a system and he's going to build his team based on adding players who can excel playing in that system. He disagrees with you about Melo.

Now in order to get this thread back on track... I think Phil has to look at guys who can actually provide production that has an impact on the teams win totals and not just guys that are cheap. We should have no qualms about spending good money on a few guys that are worth that money and some of the younger players are a greater value given their Cap number and years they can give us being younger.

Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Jimmy Butler, CHI	55	38.9	.582	14.7	6.7	20.6	5.1	11.3	8.3	21.30	345.1	11.5
8	Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX	62	33.3	.578	20.5	10.7	21.6	3.3	8.4	5.9	17.31	209.9	7.0
9	Wesley Matthews, POR	60	33.7	.586	13.4	7.8	18.6	2.1	9.5	5.9	16.14	170.5	5.7
        Danny Green, SA	63	29.4	.590	13.7	9.0	16.3	2.9	14.4	8.7	16.53	166.6	5.6
13	Khris Middleton, MIL	63	29.0	.573	14.2	8.9	18.3	2.4	15.1	8.9	16.35	159.5	5.3

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Pau Gasol, CHI	        63	34.8	.549	12.7	9.9	23.0	9.2	28.1	18.8	22.48	359.0	12.0
3       LaMarcus Aldridge, POR	56	36.0	.521	6.7	7.1	27.4	8.0	22.8	15.6	22.13	319.9	10.7
6	Greg Monroe, DET	64	31.1	.548	10.8	11.9	22.7	11.2	25.7	18.1	21.13	286.2	9.5
8	Paul Millsap, ATL	63	33.1	.566	14.7	11.7	22.1	6.7	20.1	13.6	19.90	261.6	8.7
9	Kevin Love, CLE	        64	34.4	.560	12.3	8.2	20.5	6.6	26.7	16.8	19.34	257.6	8.6
RK	PLAYER	GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
25      Omer Asik, NO	        61	26.1	.550	10.1	14.6	12.8	13.7	29.5	21.6	15.48	116.1	3.9
27	Alexis Ajinca, NO	51	14.0	.623	8.9	13.9	19.4	12.6	25.5	19.1	21.24	113.5	3.8
28	Robin Lopez, POR	40	28.4	.566	9.1	11.3	14.6	13.1	13.3	13.2	16.63	102.1	3.4

There are other players to consider but these are guys I would put a premium on acquiring. After getting a couple of these players then it would make sense to look at even cheaper FA's who are very efficient players in their own right.

Nix, saying Phil disagrees about Melo may have been true when he signed him. Phil seems to have convinced himself he could take Melo to another level and all that jazz and so far that was not true. Phil has been chastened by this season's failures and I doubt his take on Melo is the same as before.

So it sure does matter what Phil thinks about Melo NOW, not what he psyched himself into believing despite Melo's history.

More importantly for this here is not what Phil thinks, but what do you think? Do you actually believe Melo is going to become a facilitator and carry his weight as a ball movement participant more than he has in the past? If you do, then why did Melo abandon it so quickly so early in the season? He reverted aggressively this year. He was not an above average basketball player from a fundamentals point of view and he needs to be.

This is Melo's team, so everything on the table revolves around either building around him or trading him.

As far as getting players who provide offensive production, isn't that a given? I mean how can that not be the expectation and objective? That's why I asked what is the true point of emphasizing offensive production during free agency?

I'm just asking because I think you believe this can be a contending within two seasons and I don't. If you do believe that, then maybe you are saying you can justify close to max spending on another 18-24 PPG player. I doubt that will produce a contender.

The reason I don't believe this is the way go was in my first post in this thread. Costly signings will benefit the team when a base is in place and that means 1-2 years of development cheaper players. Build a deeper rotation of role players and then attract a top free agent or two who see the foundation has been laid for success. But going for broke right away trying to buy more scoring or win shares won't work next year. It is poor money management at this stage for a gutted team.

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:If you're now saying you need both offense and defense, then what is the point of all this verbiage?

You start from what you've got and build from there. If you know Melo is on your frontline, theories don't mean much if you put low quality frontline defenders next to him. Every team is built piece by piece and with our baseline being there is only one starter right now who is named Melo, you know you'll need a superior defender on the frontline.

Dealing with this reality is the only thing controllable, not historical references to past champions since this team is not going to contend for years if ever.

The # 1 fallacy behind any theories about team construction is this team will be constructed around the Triangle. As soon as Phil committed to Melo, the second coming of the Anti-Triangle himself, anyone could see this triangle talk was the fantasies of a man reflecting on his past glories, but who may not be firmly grounded in the present day realities of the NBA.

Phil dis-credited his own Triangle talk by making Melo the core of the team. What would be refreshing is if Phil stops embarrassing himself with Triangle talk and simply gets players who can blend well with Melo. That's all he can do at this point. The rest is just hot air.

This is the dilemma of trying to converse on a forum. You're complete thoughts on a subject are hard to make clear when you're always addressing specific topics and not your overall philosophy on the game as a whole. Just because i've talked about trying to find a way for this team to be successful by working with it's strengths doesn't mean that i'm saying all that matters is offense. No one has ever made such a stupid claim. It's always been about having a balanced team but you can't just wish that you're team can be strong on both sides of the ball. You actually need Defensive Talent Too. My points about offense were predicated on what kind of players we had and who was actually available to us. You can't just ignore offense and think that's going to work either. This team has a chance now to restructure and create a more balanced roster.

The comments about Phil and the Triangle aren't worth getting into. He has a system and he's going to build his team based on adding players who can excel playing in that system. He disagrees with you about Melo.

Now in order to get this thread back on track... I think Phil has to look at guys who can actually provide production that has an impact on the teams win totals and not just guys that are cheap. We should have no qualms about spending good money on a few guys that are worth that money and some of the younger players are a greater value given their Cap number and years they can give us being younger.

Hollinger Stats - Estimated Wins Added
RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Jimmy Butler, CHI	55	38.9	.582	14.7	6.7	20.6	5.1	11.3	8.3	21.30	345.1	11.5
8	Goran Dragic, MIA/PHX	62	33.3	.578	20.5	10.7	21.6	3.3	8.4	5.9	17.31	209.9	7.0
9	Wesley Matthews, POR	60	33.7	.586	13.4	7.8	18.6	2.1	9.5	5.9	16.14	170.5	5.7
        Danny Green, SA	63	29.4	.590	13.7	9.0	16.3	2.9	14.4	8.7	16.53	166.6	5.6
13	Khris Middleton, MIL	63	29.0	.573	14.2	8.9	18.3	2.4	15.1	8.9	16.35	159.5	5.3

RK	PLAYER	                GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
2	Pau Gasol, CHI	        63	34.8	.549	12.7	9.9	23.0	9.2	28.1	18.8	22.48	359.0	12.0
3       LaMarcus Aldridge, POR	56	36.0	.521	6.7	7.1	27.4	8.0	22.8	15.6	22.13	319.9	10.7
6	Greg Monroe, DET	64	31.1	.548	10.8	11.9	22.7	11.2	25.7	18.1	21.13	286.2	9.5
8	Paul Millsap, ATL	63	33.1	.566	14.7	11.7	22.1	6.7	20.1	13.6	19.90	261.6	8.7
9	Kevin Love, CLE	        64	34.4	.560	12.3	8.2	20.5	6.6	26.7	16.8	19.34	257.6	8.6
RK	PLAYER	GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
25      Omer Asik, NO	        61	26.1	.550	10.1	14.6	12.8	13.7	29.5	21.6	15.48	116.1	3.9
27	Alexis Ajinca, NO	51	14.0	.623	8.9	13.9	19.4	12.6	25.5	19.1	21.24	113.5	3.8
28	Robin Lopez, POR	40	28.4	.566	9.1	11.3	14.6	13.1	13.3	13.2	16.63	102.1	3.4

There are other players to consider but these are guys I would put a premium on acquiring. After getting a couple of these players then it would make sense to look at even cheaper FA's who are very efficient players in their own right.

Nix, saying Phil disagrees about Melo may have been true when he signed him. Phil seems to have convinced himself he could take Melo to another level and all that jazz and so far that was not true. Phil has been chastened by this season's failures and I doubt his take on Melo is the same as before.

So it sure does matter what Phil thinks about Melo NOW, not what he psyched himself into believing despite Melo's history.

More importantly for this here is not what Phil thinks, but what do you think? Do you actually believe Melo is going to become a facilitator and carry his weight as a ball movement participant more than he has in the past? If you do, then why did Melo abandon it so quickly so early in the season? He reverted aggressively this year. He was not an above average basketball player from a fundamentals point of view and he needs to be.

This is Melo's team, so everything on the table revolves around either building around him or trading him.

As far as getting players who provide offensive production, isn't that a given? I mean how can that not be the expectation and objective? That's why I asked what is the true point of emphasizing offensive production during free agency?

I'm just asking because I think you believe this can be a contending within two seasons and I don't. If you do believe that, then maybe you are saying you can justify close to max spending on another 18-24 PPG player. I doubt that will produce a contender.

The reason I don't believe this is the way go was in my first post in this thread. Costly signings will benefit the team when a base is in place and that means 1-2 years of development cheaper players. Build a deeper rotation of role players and then attract a top free agent or two who see the foundation has been laid for success. But going for broke right away trying to buy more scoring or win shares won't work next year. It is poor money management at this stage for a gutted team.

This team needs a talent infusion, and then find a cohesive mix.