Cartman718 wrote:i really hope we don't trade the pick. this is a top 3 pick that the knicks have had in what...30 years now?

You know if we had pick 3 or 4 and we felt that we could get pick 10 32 35 and a 2016#1 and still hit draft targets and that trade made more sense as a collective deal--or if it was a couple of young promising players and a good pick--thats something that could be considered.(but still doubtful) Of course if we get either pick 1 or 2 any trade that doesnt net us 1 of Okafor or Towns at any spot is a trade you just dont consider. But this article is suggesting it for an existing player--meaning wed have to use BOTH our cap space and the pick to get 1 player on a team that has won 12 games this year. We are not 1 player away --we are 7 players away. Pick 1-2-3 were going to get a VERY good player for a LONG time--to give that up for who Rudy gay or somebody like that? Insane and dumb. This team is not 1 player away--we do not even have 1 pivot signed for next year. The turnover on this team might be staggering. The likelihood is were still not a good team by a longshot next year. Patrick Ewing didnt get to .500 until his 4th year. We might have a little different scenario--team are not as good as back then but we are not the Celtics and a young Ray Allen and Kevin garnett are not coming to join Paul Pierce and a boatload of player already in place. We have 0 in place.

I don't want to trade the pick, but, as was said in the article, a team would be foolish if it didn't consider all possibilities and trade offers. I would have to get at least two starters 25 years or younger, one with an All-Star pedigree, another on his way, to even consider a trade if I had a top 2 pick. One would have to be a big man.

The article pointed out the reality of our situation. The Knicks made Anthony their keystone for the next 5 years. Signing him to the contract he got told the world that Jackson had a shorter window of opportunity to achieve some kind of playoff success than if we had started over completely by doing a sign and trade with Anthony to pick up younger players and future draft picks.

I'm not saying that we are in a win now at all costs situation, but the combination of Anthony's contract status and his physical status dictate a sooner rather than later approach to rebuilding.

Not having a pick next year really messes things up, since a slower and more painful rebuild with the sweetener of another lottery pick is out of the question at this point.

Got to face the possibility, however upsetting, that they might deal the player we get in the draft.

So it goes.

WaltLongmire wrote:I thought it was a pretty balanced article, Briggs- he touched on all the arguments, pro and con. Howard Beck is not a lightweight, in my opinion.

I don't want to trade the pick, but, as was said in the article, a team would be foolish if it didn't consider all possibilities and trade offers. I would have to get at least two starters 25 years or younger, one with an All-Star pedigree, another on his way, to even consider a trade if I had a top 2 pick. One would have to be a big man.

The article pointed out the reality of our situation. The Knicks made Anthony their keystone for the next 5 years. Signing him to the contract he got told the world that Jackson had a shorter window of opportunity to achieve some kind of playoff success than if we had started over completely by doing a sign and trade with Anthony to pick up younger players and future draft picks.

I'm not saying that we are in a win now at all costs situation, but the combination of Anthony's contract status and his physical status dictate a sooner rather than later approach to rebuilding.

Not having a pick next year really messes things up, since a slower and more painful rebuild with the sweetener of another lottery pick is out of the question at this point.

Got to face the possibility, however upsetting, that they might deal the player we get in the draft.

So it goes.

Nope trading a top 2 pick to me is not a possibility. It would be an outrageous mistake of monumental proportions--unthinkable. Teams are only in the Knicks position in rare occasions. The last time it happened it was the conduit for LONG TERM success here. And that is what EVERY single Knicks fan wants--a chance to be successful for the long term. EVERY Knick fans knows what the problems have been for 15 thats FIFTEEN years running. We ALL know that other teams GM's have been SMARTER than ours . The ONLY reason why a team would want to trade with us is they see it as a superior move--and with our history they are likely to be right. BOTh Okafor and Towns to me are PROVEN there is no doubt proven that they will be NBA superstar pivots. They are 18-19 years old--playing off the charts for their age. 1 thing I keep asking myself--my God if these guys played 4 years like Tim Dunca--they --be considered Tim Duncan. Okafor would even out hi body and become a good defensive player in time and Towns is just ready to blow up in a way that could be scary. The NY Knicks are NOT in ANY position to say lets trade a pick especially 1 or 2--ZERO there is NO balance to this article-- does it mention that we have ZERO pivots signed that we dont even have a skeleton of a team? Does it show instances where trading pick 1 or 2 has shown success--no. Its not balanced and I read it twice--the basketball writer sounds less than knowledgeable. If you need to call the owner of draftexpress.com to get opinions than your article scks. Think about that. He hasnt watched Okafor or Towns play he needs help deciphering or projecting what they might be? Thats outrageous at this point iof youre a Knicks fan. Most people on this forum kind of know what they have seen--so a beat writer has not--need s help??
Well here are some more facts for Beck

In the last 15 years a top 3 or 4 pick has resulted in

1999
Pick 1 Elton Brand--franchise pivot
Pick 2 Steven Francis-semi franchise player and multi all stars player
Pick 3 Baron Davis multi all star player semi franchise player
Pick 4 Lamar Odom--multi all star champion
2000
Pick #1 Kenyon Martin--all star player player of the year on defense 3 time NBA finalist

2001
pick #2 Tyson Chandler all star multi defensive player of the year NBA champions
pick #3 Pau Gasol franhicse player multi nBA star champion

2002
#1 Yao Ming franhcise center and multi all star player
#2 Jay Williams (got hurt but was good)

2003 Ill do 4 of 5 this year
Lebron James--franchise champion
Carmelo Anthony--franchise
C Bosh--franchise
D wade--franchise
2004
#1 Dwight Howard franchise all star
#2 Emeka Okafor --all star pivot

2005
Pick #1 Andrew Bogut--a little underwhelming becuas e of injury but a stable quality pivot
Pick #3 Deron Williams--near franchise level multi all star
Pick #4 Chris Paul franchise

2006 #2 pick Lamarcus Aldiridge franchise player in pivot

2007#1 Greg Oden--injured
#2 Kevin Durant franchise player
#3Al Horford Franchise player

2008 #1 Derek Rose NBA MVP franchise
#4 Russell Westbrook NBA franchise player MVP candidate
2009 Pick # 1 Blake Griffin multi all star semi franchise player
Pick # 3 James Harden franhcise player

2010 #1 John Wall-franhcis e player multi all star
#3 Derrik Favors near all star level pivot with potential to be a franchise pivot

2011 #1 Kyrie Irving franchise player
#3 Enes Kanter--potential all star pivot

2012 #1 Anthony davis franchise maybe best player in nBA
# 2 MHG--good player getting better
#3 Bradley Beal--potential all star 2 guard.

2013 Pick #2 Vicotor Olapido--potential mulit year all star

Pick 2014 Wiggins Parker Embiid--2 of 3 look like potential all stars

Only 1 trade in 15 years of any of these players 1 trade in Fiveteen years--there is simply NO history of trades NONE no team has done it up until this year in an extraordinary situation. You had a FRANCHISE PLAYER every single year up to 2012--every year--without exception and we cant judge 2012 and 2014 yet but I expect they may be there too.

Nearly every franchise player in the nBA playing today is a top3 or 4 pick. There is history of 1 player traded in 15 years and that we will have to see about. Here this is a rela article with real content. Show mke otherwise provide material to prove different. This man Beck has NO idea what he is talking about this is the way NBA teams work their top pick--THEY KEEP THEM almost to a 100% margin and a franchise player has been found at the top of the draft an overwhelming amount of time. This took me 30 minutes. So next time Beck does an article or need to call draftexpress for advice--maybe he should take 30 minutes or watch a couple of duke games himself before he spews idiocy.

blkexec wrote:I understand nobody wants to trade a top pick, I get it....We haven't been in this position since Ewing. But the knicks haven't proved to me they have the drafting skills or drafting history to get this pick right.

Whats worse?...

Keep one of the top picks, and watch how Fisher and the Triangle turns a top pick into a second round value. The triangle is not for everybody, NY is not for everybody, these fans are not for everybody and I don't trust the system enough to say anybody with talent will fit in.

BUT

If you trade the pick for guys that fit what Fisher and Phil are trying to do, while getting back equal value, I see nothing wrong with that. And to be clear, I would only trade the top pick for a team willing to give up superstar talent in return. which mathches the star POTENTIAL of a top pick. Basically, trading potential for reality, plus have the opportunity to hand pick a talent that fits the system. Like it or not, the Triangle is the system for the next 5 years.....Any pick we get will be around for that time frame, and probably go else where for a bigger contract, after the NY media rips them to pieces.

TOWNS is my personal favorite....I'm up in the air on OK4 and Russell. I'm tired of these one dimensional players. Enough is enough....Give me some two way players please.....Esepcially in this system, you need guys who can do more than one thing good. Especially when your best player 1 dimensional, Melo needs two way players around him for his value to match his financial cap space.

black executive--if you are an executive--what kind of advice would you take from this statistic. ONLY 1 team in 15 years has traded a pick--thats a 99.5 margin of teams who have not traded a pick. The Knicks have not proven to make a good pick? They havent had a top 3 pick in 30 years. Lats one was patrick Ewing. Besides the FACT that 99.5 % of teams did not trade their pick in the last 15 years an OVERWHELMING majority are franchise players and all stars--in fact they make up the leagues top players. That doesnt even take into account guys that couldve been leveraged like Steph Curry and I dont want to go back again. The evidence as is shows the way NBA teams operate SUCCESSFULLY is they do not trade a top pick. Show me evidence of material fact--not opinion based on nothing. Thats why I killed the article--it opinion with no materiel fact in it. In fact its so dumb and off base Ill say it again. The historical data is sitting for any person to see.

blkexec wrote:I understand nobody wants to trade a top pick, I get it....We haven't been in this position since Ewing. But the knicks haven't proved to me they have the drafting skills or drafting history to get this pick right.

Whats worse?...

Keep one of the top picks, and watch how Fisher and the Triangle turns a top pick into a second round value. The triangle is not for everybody, NY is not for everybody, these fans are not for everybody and I don't trust the system enough to say anybody with talent will fit in.

BUT

If you trade the pick for guys that fit what Fisher and Phil are trying to do, while getting back equal value, I see nothing wrong with that. And to be clear, I would only trade the top pick for a team willing to give up superstar talent in return. which mathches the star POTENTIAL of a top pick. Basically, trading potential for reality, plus have the opportunity to hand pick a talent that fits the system. Like it or not, the Triangle is the system for the next 5 years.....Any pick we get will be around for that time frame, and probably go else where for a bigger contract, after the NY media rips them to pieces.

TOWNS is my personal favorite....I'm up in the air on OK4 and Russell. I'm tired of these one dimensional players. Enough is enough....Give me some two way players please.....Esepcially in this system, you need guys who can do more than one thing good. Especially when your best player 1 dimensional, Melo needs two way players around him for his value to match his financial cap space.

BE if I had pick #1 and offered you Carmelo Anthony for an ending contract and Pick #2 would you do it?

BRIGGS wrote:

blkexec wrote:I understand nobody wants to trade a top pick, I get it....We haven't been in this position since Ewing. But the knicks haven't proved to me they have the drafting skills or drafting history to get this pick right.

Whats worse?...

Keep one of the top picks, and watch how Fisher and the Triangle turns a top pick into a second round value. The triangle is not for everybody, NY is not for everybody, these fans are not for everybody and I don't trust the system enough to say anybody with talent will fit in.

BUT

If you trade the pick for guys that fit what Fisher and Phil are trying to do, while getting back equal value, I see nothing wrong with that. And to be clear, I would only trade the top pick for a team willing to give up superstar talent in return. which mathches the star POTENTIAL of a top pick. Basically, trading potential for reality, plus have the opportunity to hand pick a talent that fits the system. Like it or not, the Triangle is the system for the next 5 years.....Any pick we get will be around for that time frame, and probably go else where for a bigger contract, after the NY media rips them to pieces.

TOWNS is my personal favorite....I'm up in the air on OK4 and Russell. I'm tired of these one dimensional players. Enough is enough....Give me some two way players please.....Esepcially in this system, you need guys who can do more than one thing good. Especially when your best player 1 dimensional, Melo needs two way players around him for his value to match his financial cap space.

black executive--if you are an executive--what kind of advice would you take from this statistic. ONLY 1 team in 15 years has traded a pick--thats a 99.5 margin of teams who have not traded a pick. The Knicks have not proven to make a good pick? They havent had a top 3 pick in 30 years. Lats one was patrick Ewing. Besides the FACT that 99.5 % of teams did not trade their pick in the last 15 years an OVERWHELMING majority are franchise players and all stars--in fact they make up the leagues top players. That doesnt even take into account guys that couldve been leveraged like Steph Curry and I dont want to go back again. The evidence as is shows the way NBA teams operate SUCCESSFULLY is they do not trade a top pick. Show me evidence of material fact--not opinion based on nothing. Thats why I killed the article--it opinion with no materiel fact in it. In fact its so dumb and off base Ill say it again. The historical data is sitting for any person to see.

Come on Briggs....you had to through in logical stats on me.....Thats my weakness. lol

Now, I don't mind going against the norm, and going with instincts....but it's going to be up to Phil on this..... Regardless of what we say. But you diffently make a good point of keeping the pick. Lets just hope we don't get the next Eddie Curry or Bargs with our pick......Because you know I will be sending out all kinds of "I told you so" threads.

Maybe I should read the article first, before replying....Logically trading the pick makes since, IF you think this draft is overrated! This seems like the type of draft that will be filled with superstars, just not at the top. And thats just a gut feeling....No statistics there.

And for the record.....I never said blkexec stood for black executive. The "l" could've been a typo that I never fixed.....bikexec!

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:not all drafts are created equal. I dont know whats out there in terms off offers but you look at everything and listen to everything. I mean what if Knicks pick 3 and simply arent impressed with Towns or Mudiay and thats whos on the board, and they can turn 3 into 6,12,20 or something like that (totally arbitrary). I mean what would you say if the KNicks did that and walked away with that Euro SG, Kaminsky and Christmas or the ND PG? Poof.. influx of talent, some with pretty high ceiling.

Premature to sweat this kind of stuff.

fishmike--one more time. 99.5% of teams that have drafted in the last 15 years have NOT trade their top 4 pick and an overwhelming majority have been franchise players and all stars. fishmike-0-can you name the last 6-11 265 pound PF to avg 18-9-1.5 at Duke as freshmen who is hooting 67%--what would he project to be in 3 years? The Kentucky Wildcats have not lost a gem and are filled with freshmen LED by their pivot Towns. If we gave towns 35 minutes at a decent school-what do you think his avtg would be? My guess is 19-12-4 50% as a freshmen. these guy are OFF the charts good. Go back and tell me about Tim Duncans freshmen year at Wake Forest.

Pick 2 MArvin Williams. Stats and athleticism... a sure thing despite diminished stats because he was on a stacked team. Boy oh boy would have been nice to see him play those 35 mpg before picking him before Chris Paul and Deron no?
What did Yao yield? What did Oden yield? What did Bargs yield?

Saying top talent come from the top of the draft... cmon briggs you dont need need cutting edge data for that. There are tons of busts at the top. What are the two biggest reasons for busts? 1) skill set or potential didnt translate 2) health
#2 you cant control. Greg Oden might have been the Admiral... he broke, it happens. But guys like Marvin Williams.. you look back and can say that the data was incomplete and there were more accomplished guys behind him. You dont see any similarity between Towns/MArvin and taking him before a guy like OK4 or Russell? Could he be great? Totally. I would get behind that pick and hope and pray, but there is data staring you in the face your choosing to ignore.

BRIGGS wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:I thought it was a pretty balanced article, Briggs- he touched on all the arguments, pro and con. Howard Beck is not a lightweight, in my opinion.

I don't want to trade the pick, but, as was said in the article, a team would be foolish if it didn't consider all possibilities and trade offers. I would have to get at least two starters 25 years or younger, one with an All-Star pedigree, another on his way, to even consider a trade if I had a top 2 pick. One would have to be a big man.

The article pointed out the reality of our situation. The Knicks made Anthony their keystone for the next 5 years. Signing him to the contract he got told the world that Jackson had a shorter window of opportunity to achieve some kind of playoff success than if we had started over completely by doing a sign and trade with Anthony to pick up younger players and future draft picks.

I'm not saying that we are in a win now at all costs situation, but the combination of Anthony's contract status and his physical status dictate a sooner rather than later approach to rebuilding.

Not having a pick next year really messes things up, since a slower and more painful rebuild with the sweetener of another lottery pick is out of the question at this point.

Got to face the possibility, however upsetting, that they might deal the player we get in the draft.

So it goes.

Nope trading a top 2 pick to me is not a possibility. It would be an outrageous mistake of monumental proportions--unthinkable. Teams are only in the Knicks position in rare occasions. The last time it happened it was the conduit for LONG TERM success here. And that is what EVERY single Knicks fan wants--a chance to be successful for the long term. EVERY Knick fans knows what the problems have been for 15 thats FIFTEEN years running. We ALL know that other teams GM's have been SMARTER than ours . The ONLY reason why a team would want to trade with us is they see it as a superior move--and with our history they are likely to be right. BOTh Okafor and Towns to me are PROVEN there is no doubt proven that they will be NBA superstar pivots. They are 18-19 years old--playing off the charts for their age. 1 thing I keep asking myself--my God if these guys played 4 years like Tim Dunca--they --be considered Tim Duncan. Okafor would even out hi body and become a good defensive player in time and Towns is just ready to blow up in a way that could be scary. The NY Knicks are NOT in ANY position to say lets trade a pick especially 1 or 2--ZERO there is NO balance to this article-- does it mention that we have ZERO pivots signed that we dont even have a skeleton of a team? Does it show instances where trading pick 1 or 2 has shown success--no. Its not balanced and I read it twice--the basketball writer sounds less than knowledgeable. If you need to call the owner of draftexpress.com to get opinions than your article scks. Think about that. He hasnt watched Okafor or Towns play he needs help deciphering or projecting what they might be? Thats outrageous at this point iof youre a Knicks fan. Most people on this forum kind of know what they have seen--so a beat writer has not--need s help??

Only 1 trade in 15 years of any of these players 1 trade in Fiveteen years--there is simply NO history of trades NONE no team has done it up until this year in an extraordinary situation. You had a FRANCHISE PLAYER every single year up to 2012--every year--without exception and we cant judge 2012 and 2014 yet but I expect they may be there too.

Nearly every franchise player in the nBA playing today is a top3 or 4 pick. There is history of 1 player traded in 15 years and that we will have to see about. Here this is a rela article with real content. Show mke otherwise provide material to prove different. This man Beck has NO idea what he is talking about this is the way NBA teams work their top pick--THEY KEEP THEM almost to a 100% margin and a franchise player has been found at the top of the draft an overwhelming amount of time. This took me 30 minutes. So next time Beck does an article or need to call draftexpress for advice--maybe he should take 30 minutes or watch a couple of duke games himself before he spews idiocy.

You are dealing with two time frames which cannot be dismissed as being insignificant:

Jackson has a 5 year contract(And does anyone really think he will be around after it ends?), and legacy-wise, he might feel the need to
create a contending team within the years of his tenure, even though he has talked about changing the culture and future success of the franchise, seemingly beyond his departure.

Anthony's contract goes hand and had with Jackson's. He is not a 25 years old, with his prime years ahead of him, and his contract limits some of our options, although the soon to be expanded cap will change things. His limitations as a player might influence who the Knicks draft, since we are going to need an improved interior D to compensate for Anthony, whether he defends at the 3 or the 4 position.

I have no idea if this trade would work within the rules of the NBA, and don't care if you think OKC would not want to do it, but what if OKC offered you Durant, Adams, and their #1 for our top 2 pick, Hardaway, and whatever.

I'm not saying it is a feasible transaction... just asking whether you would trade the pick for this kind of deal.

Just wondering.