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Isiah says Knicks need to be realistic
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TMS
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6/23/2004  9:41 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/205443p-177339c.html
The Indiana Pacers are open to trading Al Harrington, a player Isiah Thomas coached and one that would fit in nicely with the Knicks. There is one small problem however. Does anyone truly believe that Larry Bird would open trade discussions with an old adversary?

"I would do business with Indiana," Thomas said yesterday. "I would have no problem making a trade or doing business with them."

What Thomas wants and what he will get this summer are shaping up to be two entirely different things. The Knicks president, who was honored at Fordham University yesterday where he was inducted into the Five Star Basketball Hall of Fame, conceded that the Knicks have neither the financial flexibility nor the assets to acquire some of the league's elite players. That means no money to sign either Kobe Bryant or Rasheed Wallace or enough talented players to trade for Shaquille O'Neal.

"Unfortunately for us, we inherited a situation that flexibility-wise we don't have the flexibility to go out on the market and play for these types of guys," Thomas said. "You can be in the conversation. Are you really in the game? Chances are you're probably not in the game unless you get really lucky. There are a lot of guys that want to come here and play for us and play in New York. But the way things are cap-wise and everything else, we're in a tough, inflexible situation."

Thomas' comments were not-so-subtle shots at former Knicks president Scott Layden. Of course, Thomas did use the assets Layden assembled to acquire point guard Stephon Marbury in a trade with Phoenix last January that included the Knicks' first-round draft pick this year, leaving them with just the 43rd overall selection.

Thomas has talked to several teams about buying his way into the first round, perhaps to draft a high-school player. But even if that scenario unfolds, it is unlikely that the draft pick would have much of an impact on the upcoming season. Instead, Thomas will have to be creative if he hopes to add an impact player, preferably an athletic power forward, to the roster.

The Mavs' Antoine Walker remains a strong possibility. The Charlotte Bobcats did not select Walker in last night's expansion draft, so in order for the Knicks to get him, they will have to negotiate directly with Dallas, which does have interest in Kurt Thomas.

"It's safe to say that there are players out there that we have interest in," Isiah Thomas said when asked specifically about Walker.

Harrington also interests the Knicks, but the long, bitter history between Bird and Thomas does not bode well for a trade. Of course, the Pacers are desperately trying to unload Ron Artest, who suffered several meltdowns at the end of the playoffs. But if the Pacers were willing to offer Artest to the Knicks, that should raise red flags. Or as one NBA executive said yesterday, "Ron has a lot of talent but he's a ticking time-bomb."
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BRIGGS
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6/23/2004  10:08 AM
dont blame what we have now on layden. the reason i was against that starbury trade is because it was obvious it would put the franchise into potential quagmire. We gave up so many assets for one player that were stuck. We didnt trade KT for whatever when we had the chance. i dont see how this team can financially even spend another $$$ when we have a payroll of 100m already. maybe we can spend pennies, but taking on contracts for the likes of aaron mckie[whew] or trading for antoine walker[?}

Jamal Crawford--yes--that type of player--and if we cant I guess we go with what we have. with the bobcats the hawks the celtics bulls etc.. all rebuilding at one time--it would take a miracle NOT to make the playoffs. but we will go quietly again in round 1 and just get a year older.
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Nalod
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6/23/2004  10:10 AM


Isiah im sure is doing his best. He reminded us of the situation he "inherited" from Laydog. THe reality is he used rebuiding assets to get Marbury to get us competitive again, make Cablevision money, and hopefully if sincere, will just take longer to restaff the roster.

We can't take every expiring deal and trade it for talent that someone wants to dump. Walker would have been ok as he only has a year left. And we could have let him expire, but not enough takers for our other contracts we need to push off.

I am looking forward to seeing Marbs and houstan form one of the NBA better back courts, Sweets emerge to a 15-8 power forward, Frank get meaningful minutes and back up our guards, and Moochie grow out that fro and be a spark off the bench. Vin can give us low post points. TT can get his head screwed on right and emerge to his talent potential. Any trades sholuld include KT.

Should be a good year regardless of no blockbuster trade or big name signing. We got a 94million dollar roster, and regardless of how it was created, we need to play good ball and move ahead.
fishmike
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6/23/2004  11:27 AM
saying he inherited an inflexible situation is an understatement. He moved a lot of dead wood in a short time. As I recall several people were resigned to watching Spoon, Eisley, Anderson, Houston and KVH for the next 3 years. With Layden I knew I was.

I agree Nalod, to do his job and have any flexibility it was paramount for Isiah to instantly make the team competive. The Marbury/TT combo does that. Now it will take time to reshape the roster.

Give me Artest in a heartbeat... PLEASE. He's got a super long contract. I would even take Pollard back for an expiring deal if I could make it work. Nazr, Frank and Deke. They get a young PG better than any they have (yes I just dogged Tinsley), Nazr is MUCH better than Pollard and Deke expires in a year saving them about $30 mill. If they want to kick in their #1 I will give them $2 mill on top of it. With Artest, Tim Thomas and Penny you have 3 guys that can handle the ball and play 3 positions. Get Artest now, while his value is low.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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6/23/2004  11:33 AM
Briggs, will you please get off that, what tradeable assests did Isaih give up? No one was going to give us anyting more for Lampe and milos who will never probably come over!! And our first round pick..LOL.. yea that has a lot of value, the nets sold theirs for cash.. Come on man, you are harping on that same thing like a broken record, yet you have proven what value these so called assets would of had.. I wish you give it up, please for the love of god and everything sacred stop the bull sheit!!! Lampe, Milos, Dice, the pick were going to get us nothing more.. We got steph for that junk we gave up, weither it was steph or another star type player that junk was only going to get us one player and we got him... Lets say we held that junk and traded it for a good player now, how is that any different from trading for steph? HUH??? please stop....Please!!!

[Edited by - tkf on 06/23/2004 11:35:52]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
gunsnewing
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6/23/2004  11:35 AM
I can't wait til Houston, penny and shandon get off this ****in team
Starks3
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6/23/2004  12:25 PM
Isiah says all this stuff about not being able to get guys but remember he is sneaky, i'm sure he has some magic up his sleeve
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TMS
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6/23/2004  12:30 PM
i'm sure he's trying like hell to get something big done, but he just doesn't want the fans to expect something like last year's blockbuster that got Marbury here, or anything even close to that...personally, i would be happy if he was able to get rid of Shandon Anderson...a bonus would be if he could trade KT & get a 1st round pick out of the deal...if that deal w/San Antonio for Rose & their pick were still on the table i'd jump on it right now.
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VDesai
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6/23/2004  12:38 PM
Getting rid of Shandon Anderson would be nothing short of amazing. At least Allan Houston is actually a good player when healthy. Anderson has the worst contract on the team quite easily, and this is a team full of the worst contracts in the league.

Malik Rose's deal was called a Shandon Anderson like deal by one of the papers today. We do not need him. We have a better version with more offensive potential (Sweetney). Its just not worth getting a very late first rounder and losing a better player like Kurt Thomas to get Rose, at a similar salary level. While his producitivity to dollars ratio would be better than Shandon's as a backup, it just doesnt make sense to take on that kind of dollars for a mediocre player and a pick with a very low chance of being a contributing player. IMO unless David Harrison is there, there really isnt much difference between picking in the late 20's then there is at picking at 43.
BRIGGS
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6/23/2004  12:41 PM
i think harrison is all the way up to pick 12 at seattle. the pavel guy IMHO is set to drop this year like lampe did. i believe it will be arajuo at 8 biendris at 11 to GS and Harrison at 12 to seattle now
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VDesai
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6/23/2004  12:47 PM
BRIGGS that makes sense and I was wondering why Harrison wasnt getting as many looks. IMO a 7 foot American Born player who was reasonably productive in college should not go at the end of the first round. While 12 might be too high for him, I believe he should go int he mid-late teens.
TMS
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6/23/2004  12:48 PM
Malik Rose's deal was called a Shandon Anderson like deal by one of the papers today. We do not need him. We have a better version with more offensive potential (Sweetney). Its just not worth getting a very late first rounder and losing a better player like Kurt Thomas to get Rose, at a similar salary level. While his producitivity to dollars ratio would be better than Shandon's as a backup, it just doesnt make sense to take on that kind of dollars for a mediocre player and a pick with a very low chance of being a contributing player. IMO unless David Harrison is there, there really isnt much difference between picking in the late 20's then there is at picking at 43.

imo, having KT on this team only delays Sweetney's development even further...i'd rather start Sweetney, have Rose who's happy being a backup role (unlike Kurt who's a constant complainer everytime he's relegated to the bench), & a 1st round pick w/which Isiah can use his good judgement of young talent to get a diamond in the rough...i'd rather have 2 chances at getting a future player who can turn into something we want rather than 1 at #44 & an aging Kurt Thomas who won't have much value once he becomes a bench player when Sweetney is ready to take over as a starter...best to trade KT now while you can still get something decent for him in return...his contract runs the same amount of time as Malik Rose's does btw, & KT gets paid slightly more overall.
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VDesai
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6/23/2004  12:54 PM
Okay, I can understand not wanting Sweetney's development to be blocked, but we can easily bring in a cheap backup PF like Vin Baker and try to ship Kurt Thomas out for less of an albatross contract. As far as having the late first rounder, IMO you're gonna get a guy at that pick like Tony Allen, who IMO is not that much different than a Sato, Emmett or Pickett who you can get at 43. I can understand doubling up to give you better odds of getting a player, but in all likelihood only one guy is gonna make the team anyway. Isiah himself said in the papers today that he doesn't feel like this draft is worth having a first rounder in, and isnt even willing to pay the 3mm that it would take to get in the first round. Might as well see what we can get with the 2nd rounder and stand pat.

IMO at the trading deadline or later in this offseason KT, FW and expring deals might be able to yield us a player. We don't necessarily have to make the move around draft time, especially if the GM says he doesnt like this years draft.

[Edited by - Vdesai on 06/23/2004 12:56:50]
Nalod
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6/23/2004  1:00 PM
Posted by fishmike:

saying he inherited an inflexible situation is an understatement. He moved a lot of dead wood in a short time. As I recall several people were resigned to watching Spoon, Eisley, Anderson, Houston and KVH for the next 3 years. With Layden I knew I was.

I agree Nalod, to do his job and have any flexibility it was paramount for Isiah to instantly make the team competive. The Marbury/TT combo does that. Now it will take time to reshape the roster.

Give me Artest in a heartbeat... PLEASE. He's got a super long contract. I would even take Pollard back for an expiring deal if I could make it work. Nazr, Frank and Deke. They get a young PG better than any they have (yes I just dogged Tinsley), Nazr is MUCH better than Pollard and Deke expires in a year saving them about $30 mill. If they want to kick in their #1 I will give them $2 mill on top of it. With Artest, Tim Thomas and Penny you have 3 guys that can handle the ball and play 3 positions. Get Artest now, while his value is low.

Isiah took back huge amounts of salary to move that dead wood. It came at a price.

I thought Ron Ron really was making progress last year until he folded up in the detroit series and lost it. ROn is a great talent, and I can live with his BS as I don't expect us to be in really important games for a while. Isiah really knows this kid coaching him first hand. Isiah could not contain him.
TMS
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6/23/2004  1:06 PM
having that extra pick just gives Isiah more options imo...having KT does not...the contracts are equally hampering to the team's flexibility to make a move anyway...obviously Kurt is the better player, but by how much? & will other teams consider him worth giving up an impact player for? i highly doubt it at this point...if something hasn't happened already, it probably won't...i don't want KT being a malcontent backup PF once Sweetney takes over as the starter & lose all his trade value altogether.

if Isiah could parlay the pick along w/the #44 pick to move up higher in the draft, perhaps to get ATL's #17, Boston's #15 or either 1 of Utah's mid 1st round picks, w/which he could then take a flyer on a HS kid w/good potential like JR Smith or a bigman like Rafael Araujo, i would be all for it...& even if he can't make that happen, having the #28 pick from SA still gives him another shot at adding a player who can make an impact in the years to come over having just a mid 2nd round pick w/which they may be able to get a Romain Sato with if they're lucky...& there's no guarantees he'll even be there for the taking when their turn comes to pick anyway.
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gunsnewing
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6/23/2004  2:59 PM
Posted by TMS:
Malik Rose's deal was called a Shandon Anderson like deal by one of the papers today. We do not need him. We have a better version with more offensive potential (Sweetney). Its just not worth getting a very late first rounder and losing a better player like Kurt Thomas to get Rose, at a similar salary level. While his producitivity to dollars ratio would be better than Shandon's as a backup, it just doesnt make sense to take on that kind of dollars for a mediocre player and a pick with a very low chance of being a contributing player. IMO unless David Harrison is there, there really isnt much difference between picking in the late 20's then there is at picking at 43.

imo, having KT on this team only delays Sweetney's development even further...i'd rather start Sweetney, have Rose who's happy being a backup role (unlike Kurt who's a constant complainer everytime he's relegated to the bench), & a 1st round pick w/which Isiah can use his good judgement of young talent to get a diamond in the rough...i'd rather have 2 chances at getting a future player who can turn into something we want rather than 1 at #44 & an aging Kurt Thomas who won't have much value once he becomes a bench player when Sweetney is ready to take over as a starter...best to trade KT now while you can still get something decent for him in return...his contract runs the same amount of time as Malik Rose's does btw, & KT gets paid slightly more overall.

Couldn't have said it any better!
newyorknewyork
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6/23/2004  3:04 PM
Id take Rose & a pick for KT easily. Rose can be just as productive as KT the only thing is KT can play center. That first rd pick could land us a solid college veteran that can help now.

Lampe & Milos were 2nd rd picks that didn't prove nothing. They had low value. Knicks would have had to wait for yrs for them to get there value up if the EVER did. There is just as big a risk hoping they become stars and passing up a Marbury. Then getting a 26yr old stud PG and hoping that we were right in our judgment and they are nothing more than role players or that they will take many yrs to finaly become more than role players. They only types of talent we could have gotten back for them would be a, Big Dog, SAR, Lafrentz if we traded them seperatly.

Id bet we couldn't even get a lottery pick for Lampe or Milos straight up.
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TMS
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6/23/2004  5:52 PM
funny how guys like Milos & Lampe were touted as being SO much to give up in that deal for Marbury, but people aren't willing to give up Kurt Thomas to get a #28 pick which is higher than either of those guys were taken with in the first place.

[Edited by - TMS on 06/23/2004 17:53:20]
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MX25
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6/23/2004  8:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:

As I recall several people were resigned to watching Spoon, Eisley, Anderson, Houston and KVH for the next 3 years. With Layden I knew I was.

Yea now we only gotta watch Anderson,Moochie,Houston,Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas for years to come. I don't see the big change. Oh wait..Marbury puts up superstar #'s but has never won a playoff series and isn't a leader.

Whatever Isiah does here...he'll always blame Layden for it.
Isiah says Knicks need to be realistic

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