dk7th wrote:look first off i was referencing non stretch 4s who do not have the ability to drive with regularity, and i was referencing what i thought may be a trend this season. also, i suggested elsewhere that there is a high likelihood that these shots are taken late in the possession, something that iirc you pooh-poohed elsewhere but are agreeing with now.

i never said that the shot was a good shot to work for as a natural part of an offense-- that's why i think it's a good shot to take as a last resort because there's a probability that the later in the possession you are the more possible it is that the defense has broken down and that 16-20 footer will be an open look, ie not contested..

showing me manu and gallo does no good because neither is a humphries/griffin/jason smith type player. showing me the shot charts of manu and gallo in seasons prior to this one also doesn't help.

what i am curious about are the shot charts for griffin and humphries from this season.

i am here to learn so educate me.

Fair enough.

Blake has added a long mid range to his game this year. While some have complimented it. It is very obvious that the very shots have really hurt his efficiency.

What they are trying to get LA not to do, he added. I can check if he has a shot chart for this year but I don't think there is one available yet. The data is available and bask-ref though.

Blakes TS has gone down from a premium 58.3 to a very eh 54.9. His WS48 has gone from a very premium .205 to a good .174. I am sure there are other factors too but his TS hit is huge.

What changed?

Well ... his rebounds are down but his assists are up ... so a bit of a wash.

He has gone from taking 26.7 of his shots between 16 and 23 last year to 37.6 of his shots this year! 37.6 thats utterly ridiculous!

who the hells idea was that? And, he is taking them early in the clock!

He is hitting them at a very above average rate though of 40.1% - BIG WHOOP. We have a new modern power forward who has learned how to shoot the 22 footer at a great 40 percent. Now, if his goal is to move back slowly and eventually turn those into 38 percent 3's, then I am all for it. Now it just looks like a clown move thats quite puzzling.

Players like Dirk, Curry and Durant are just in a different league where the defense is running at them in so many ways to figure out how to contain them. They will run at them with 3 guys to run them off their shots. They can hit from anywhere on the court and do. They are very unique exceptions.

Durant, as great as he is, still has more to learn with shot selections. He settles just A bit too much for long 2's and does not have a post game to keep the defense honest (which is especially needed in the playoffs so that Tony Allens won't be able to guard him). With all that being said, he is one of the most ridiculous shooters and efficient players ever! What he and Curry are doing is just insane.

Also, Duran't still only takes 16% of his shots from 16-23 feet. If at all possible, he would rather take his 40% 3 than this 42 percent long 2. Sometimes he does not have a choice (16% of the time) I get that.

Dirk is hitting these sh1t shots at a whopping 51.6 which is unworldly. He is so much taller than his defender and he has that (one) step back fade. He is an exception not the rule. Blake will never be able to do what Dirk has done. He may be the best of all time in this space.

fishmike wrote:I like this guy also:

The midrange game is important and has a place in the league. Ultimately "a good shot" depends on the shooter, the offense and the circumstances, not soley on where on the floor its taken

And Durant is the most prolific scorer in the league and has been like 6yrs straight

You see his chart and just marvel at it because a defense will have no answer

For him, no matter where he's at on the court

You don't pass up open shots because an "open shot" is the highest % shot in the league

Next to an attempt at the free throw line, open shots lead to efficiency

fishmike wrote:I like this guy also:

The midrange game is important and has a place in the league. Ultimately "a good shot" depends on the shooter, the offense and the circumstances, not soley on where on the floor its taken

Hey KD used to shoot 30 percent of his shots from 16-23. Now he is down to 16%. He has come a long way and is reaping the benefits.

Steph Curry (under Kerr) has gone from 24.5% to 15.3%.

See a trend? Of course not!

this shot is the most contested shot in the game as well and do not draw fouls.

Kevin Durant does not look to get an open shot right inside the arc. That's silly. He may be forced to take contested shots inside the arc in certain dire need situations but obviously tries to avoid it.

I think we need to bring back the short shorts.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:look first off i was referencing non stretch 4s who do not have the ability to drive with regularity, and i was referencing what i thought may be a trend this season. also, i suggested elsewhere that there is a high likelihood that these shots are taken late in the possession, something that iirc you pooh-poohed elsewhere but are agreeing with now.

i never said that the shot was a good shot to work for as a natural part of an offense-- that's why i think it's a good shot to take as a last resort because there's a probability that the later in the possession you are the more possible it is that the defense has broken down and that 16-20 footer will be an open look, ie not contested..

showing me manu and gallo does no good because neither is a humphries/griffin/jason smith type player. showing me the shot charts of manu and gallo in seasons prior to this one also doesn't help.

what i am curious about are the shot charts for griffin and humphries from this season.

i am here to learn so educate me.

Fair enough.

Blake has added a long mid range to his game this year. While some have complimented it. It is very obvious that the very shots have really hurt his efficiency.

What they are trying to get LA not to do, he added. I can check if he has a shot chart for this year but I don't think there is one available yet. The data is available and bask-ref though.

Blakes TS has gone down from a premium 58.3 to a very eh 54.9. His WS48 has gone from a very premium .205 to a good .174. I am sure there are other factors too but his TS hit is huge.

What changed?

Well ... his rebounds are down but his assists are up ... so a bit of a wash.

He has gone from taking 26.7 of his shots between 16 and 23 last year to 37.6 of his shots this year! 37.6 thats utterly ridiculous!

who the hells idea was that? And, he is taking them early in the clock!

He is hitting them at a very above average rate though of 40.1% - BIG WHOOP. We have a new modern power forward who has learned how to shoot the 22 footer at a great 40 percent. Now, if his goal is to move back slowly and eventually turn those into 38 percent 3's, then I am all for it. Now it just looks like a clown move thats quite puzzling.

Players like Dirk, Curry and Durant are just in a different league where the defense is running at them in so many ways to figure out how to contain them. They will run at them with 3 guys to run them off their shots. They can hit from anywhere on the court and do. They are very unique exceptions.

Durant, as great as he is, still has more to learn with shot selections. He settles just A bit too much for long 2's and does not have a post game to keep the defense honest (which is especially needed in the playoffs so that Tony Allens won't be able to guard him). With all that being said, he is one of the most ridiculous shooters and efficient players ever! What he and Curry are doing is just insane.

Also, Duran't still only takes 16% of his shots from 16-23 feet. If at all possible, he would rather take his 40% 3 than this 42 percent long 2. Sometimes he does not have a choice (16% of the time) I get that.

Dirk is hitting these sh1t shots at a whopping 51.6 which is unworldly. He is so much taller than his defender and he has that (one) step back fade. He is an exception not the rule. Blake will never be able to do what Dirk has done. He may be the best of all time in this space.

do you have a chart that shows when griffin is taking these particular shots in the clock?

you may think it's crazy to do so, but apparently the coaching staff is seeing something exploitable otherwise he wouldn't be taking it. like i said, in the nba you have to adapt or you die.

also, it isn't outrageous to suggest that maybe he is sacrificing some of his personal numbers even in the advanced stat categories for the greater good of his team's offense.

crazy? or perhaps there are nuances that we have yet to fully consider.

there are many nuances to consider. thats what makes it fun.

I don't have data as to when those shots are taken. I can only speak to many of the games that I watched which had him shooting these shots early and as a first option.

perhaps the coaching staff wants carmelo to take contested long 2's. They are obviously condoning it.

To say that Blake is sacrificing for the team by taking stupid shots makes no sense. That is not adapting. I think that Doc is trying to turn him into Kevin Garnet which is not working and I highly doubt will succeed. Blake should be attacking the basket and becoming much more efficient between 3 and 16 feet where he is shooting under 40 percent.

The only thing about Blakes game that is improving is his passing. He has become a very good passer and Doc is teaching him to see the floor really well. The positive about have a real PG as your head coach.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:look first off i was referencing non stretch 4s who do not have the ability to drive with regularity, and i was referencing what i thought may be a trend this season. also, i suggested elsewhere that there is a high likelihood that these shots are taken late in the possession, something that iirc you pooh-poohed elsewhere but are agreeing with now.

i never said that the shot was a good shot to work for as a natural part of an offense-- that's why i think it's a good shot to take as a last resort because there's a probability that the later in the possession you are the more possible it is that the defense has broken down and that 16-20 footer will be an open look, ie not contested..

showing me manu and gallo does no good because neither is a humphries/griffin/jason smith type player. showing me the shot charts of manu and gallo in seasons prior to this one also doesn't help.

what i am curious about are the shot charts for griffin and humphries from this season.

i am here to learn so educate me.

Fair enough.

Blake has added a long mid range to his game this year. While some have complimented it. It is very obvious that the very shots have really hurt his efficiency.

What they are trying to get LA not to do, he added. I can check if he has a shot chart for this year but I don't think there is one available yet. The data is available and bask-ref though.

Blakes TS has gone down from a premium 58.3 to a very eh 54.9. His WS48 has gone from a very premium .205 to a good .174. I am sure there are other factors too but his TS hit is huge.

What changed?

Well ... his rebounds are down but his assists are up ... so a bit of a wash.

He has gone from taking 26.7 of his shots between 16 and 23 last year to 37.6 of his shots this year! 37.6 thats utterly ridiculous!

who the hells idea was that? And, he is taking them early in the clock!

He is hitting them at a very above average rate though of 40.1% - BIG WHOOP. We have a new modern power forward who has learned how to shoot the 22 footer at a great 40 percent. Now, if his goal is to move back slowly and eventually turn those into 38 percent 3's, then I am all for it. Now it just looks like a clown move thats quite puzzling.

Players like Dirk, Curry and Durant are just in a different league where the defense is running at them in so many ways to figure out how to contain them. They will run at them with 3 guys to run them off their shots. They can hit from anywhere on the court and do. They are very unique exceptions.

Durant, as great as he is, still has more to learn with shot selections. He settles just A bit too much for long 2's and does not have a post game to keep the defense honest (which is especially needed in the playoffs so that Tony Allens won't be able to guard him). With all that being said, he is one of the most ridiculous shooters and efficient players ever! What he and Curry are doing is just insane.

Also, Duran't still only takes 16% of his shots from 16-23 feet. If at all possible, he would rather take his 40% 3 than this 42 percent long 2. Sometimes he does not have a choice (16% of the time) I get that.

Dirk is hitting these sh1t shots at a whopping 51.6 which is unworldly. He is so much taller than his defender and he has that (one) step back fade. He is an exception not the rule. Blake will never be able to do what Dirk has done. He may be the best of all time in this space.

do you have a chart that shows when griffin is taking these particular shots in the clock?

you may think it's crazy to do so, but apparently the coaching staff is seeing something exploitable otherwise he wouldn't be taking it. like i said, in the nba you have to adapt or you die.

also, it isn't outrageous to suggest that maybe he is sacrificing some of his personal numbers even in the advanced stat categories for the greater good of his team's offense.

crazy? or perhaps there are nuances that we have yet to fully consider.

there are many nuances to consider. thats what makes it fun.

I don't have data as to when those shots are taken. I can only speak to many of the games that I watched which had him shooting these shots early and as a first option.

perhaps the coaching staff wants carmelo to take contested long 2's. They are obviously condoning it.

To say that Blake is sacrificing for the team by taking stupid shots makes no sense. That is not adapting. I think that Doc is trying to turn him into Kevin Garnet which is not working and I highly doubt will succeed. Blake should be attacking the basket and becoming much more efficient between 3 and 16 feet where he is shooting under 40 percent.

The only thing about Blakes game that is improving is his passing. He has become a very good passer and Doc is teaching him to see the floor really well. The positive about have a real PG as your head coach.

i'm going to ask again: griffin's numbers are down with the TS% i get that-- but is the clippers' offense better as a whole this season, be it from TS% or other measures of efficiency? if yes, then wouldn't there be an argument for making a connection between the two, ie (1)griffin's lower ts% taking the midrange shot within the context of (2)the clippers' doing better as a team on offense efficiency-wise?

We'll rock it out maybe after lunch got some major tunes my vibes are feeling Groovy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And he's a CHAMPION taking a bunch of "stupid shots"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Long 2 "BEST SHOOTER EVER" taking Dummy playoff time

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Can't shoot to save his life except for the "LONG TWO" Mythical Idiot

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can You Whoo-Whoo-Whoo on My Long Long Twos from Post Play Toniiiiiight!!!

I'm Double AA with the Midrange J

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:look first off i was referencing non stretch 4s who do not have the ability to drive with regularity, and i was referencing what i thought may be a trend this season. also, i suggested elsewhere that there is a high likelihood that these shots are taken late in the possession, something that iirc you pooh-poohed elsewhere but are agreeing with now.

i never said that the shot was a good shot to work for as a natural part of an offense-- that's why i think it's a good shot to take as a last resort because there's a probability that the later in the possession you are the more possible it is that the defense has broken down and that 16-20 footer will be an open look, ie not contested..

showing me manu and gallo does no good because neither is a humphries/griffin/jason smith type player. showing me the shot charts of manu and gallo in seasons prior to this one also doesn't help.

what i am curious about are the shot charts for griffin and humphries from this season.

i am here to learn so educate me.

Fair enough.

Blake has added a long mid range to his game this year. While some have complimented it. It is very obvious that the very shots have really hurt his efficiency.

What they are trying to get LA not to do, he added. I can check if he has a shot chart for this year but I don't think there is one available yet. The data is available and bask-ref though.

Blakes TS has gone down from a premium 58.3 to a very eh 54.9. His WS48 has gone from a very premium .205 to a good .174. I am sure there are other factors too but his TS hit is huge.

What changed?

Well ... his rebounds are down but his assists are up ... so a bit of a wash.

He has gone from taking 26.7 of his shots between 16 and 23 last year to 37.6 of his shots this year! 37.6 thats utterly ridiculous!

who the hells idea was that? And, he is taking them early in the clock!

He is hitting them at a very above average rate though of 40.1% - BIG WHOOP. We have a new modern power forward who has learned how to shoot the 22 footer at a great 40 percent. Now, if his goal is to move back slowly and eventually turn those into 38 percent 3's, then I am all for it. Now it just looks like a clown move thats quite puzzling.

Players like Dirk, Curry and Durant are just in a different league where the defense is running at them in so many ways to figure out how to contain them. They will run at them with 3 guys to run them off their shots. They can hit from anywhere on the court and do. They are very unique exceptions.

Durant, as great as he is, still has more to learn with shot selections. He settles just A bit too much for long 2's and does not have a post game to keep the defense honest (which is especially needed in the playoffs so that Tony Allens won't be able to guard him). With all that being said, he is one of the most ridiculous shooters and efficient players ever! What he and Curry are doing is just insane.

Also, Duran't still only takes 16% of his shots from 16-23 feet. If at all possible, he would rather take his 40% 3 than this 42 percent long 2. Sometimes he does not have a choice (16% of the time) I get that.

Dirk is hitting these sh1t shots at a whopping 51.6 which is unworldly. He is so much taller than his defender and he has that (one) step back fade. He is an exception not the rule. Blake will never be able to do what Dirk has done. He may be the best of all time in this space.

do you have a chart that shows when griffin is taking these particular shots in the clock?

you may think it's crazy to do so, but apparently the coaching staff is seeing something exploitable otherwise he wouldn't be taking it. like i said, in the nba you have to adapt or you die.

also, it isn't outrageous to suggest that maybe he is sacrificing some of his personal numbers even in the advanced stat categories for the greater good of his team's offense.

crazy? or perhaps there are nuances that we have yet to fully consider.

there are many nuances to consider. thats what makes it fun.

I don't have data as to when those shots are taken. I can only speak to many of the games that I watched which had him shooting these shots early and as a first option.

perhaps the coaching staff wants carmelo to take contested long 2's. They are obviously condoning it.

To say that Blake is sacrificing for the team by taking stupid shots makes no sense. That is not adapting. I think that Doc is trying to turn him into Kevin Garnet which is not working and I highly doubt will succeed. Blake should be attacking the basket and becoming much more efficient between 3 and 16 feet where he is shooting under 40 percent.

The only thing about Blakes game that is improving is his passing. He has become a very good passer and Doc is teaching him to see the floor really well. The positive about have a real PG as your head coach.

i'm going to ask again: griffin's numbers are down with the TS% i get that-- but is the clippers' offense better as a whole this season, be it from TS% or other measures of efficiency? if yes, then wouldn't there be an argument for making a connection between the two, ie (1)griffin's lower ts% taking the midrange shot within the context of (2)the clippers' doing better as a team on offense efficiency-wise?

then make the argument? Are you asking me to create an argument for you?

make an argument that Griffin's lower TS / his long mid range, low pct - addition has made the clippers more efficient.

well lets start this way: is the clippers' offense more efficient this season than last? i can't find these stats on bbref just totals

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:look first off i was referencing non stretch 4s who do not have the ability to drive with regularity, and i was referencing what i thought may be a trend this season. also, i suggested elsewhere that there is a high likelihood that these shots are taken late in the possession, something that iirc you pooh-poohed elsewhere but are agreeing with now.

i never said that the shot was a good shot to work for as a natural part of an offense-- that's why i think it's a good shot to take as a last resort because there's a probability that the later in the possession you are the more possible it is that the defense has broken down and that 16-20 footer will be an open look, ie not contested..

showing me manu and gallo does no good because neither is a humphries/griffin/jason smith type player. showing me the shot charts of manu and gallo in seasons prior to this one also doesn't help.

what i am curious about are the shot charts for griffin and humphries from this season.

i am here to learn so educate me.

Fair enough.

Blake has added a long mid range to his game this year. While some have complimented it. It is very obvious that the very shots have really hurt his efficiency.

What they are trying to get LA not to do, he added. I can check if he has a shot chart for this year but I don't think there is one available yet. The data is available and bask-ref though.

Blakes TS has gone down from a premium 58.3 to a very eh 54.9. His WS48 has gone from a very premium .205 to a good .174. I am sure there are other factors too but his TS hit is huge.

What changed?

Well ... his rebounds are down but his assists are up ... so a bit of a wash.

He has gone from taking 26.7 of his shots between 16 and 23 last year to 37.6 of his shots this year! 37.6 thats utterly ridiculous!

who the hells idea was that? And, he is taking them early in the clock!

He is hitting them at a very above average rate though of 40.1% - BIG WHOOP. We have a new modern power forward who has learned how to shoot the 22 footer at a great 40 percent. Now, if his goal is to move back slowly and eventually turn those into 38 percent 3's, then I am all for it. Now it just looks like a clown move thats quite puzzling.

Players like Dirk, Curry and Durant are just in a different league where the defense is running at them in so many ways to figure out how to contain them. They will run at them with 3 guys to run them off their shots. They can hit from anywhere on the court and do. They are very unique exceptions.

Durant, as great as he is, still has more to learn with shot selections. He settles just A bit too much for long 2's and does not have a post game to keep the defense honest (which is especially needed in the playoffs so that Tony Allens won't be able to guard him). With all that being said, he is one of the most ridiculous shooters and efficient players ever! What he and Curry are doing is just insane.

Also, Duran't still only takes 16% of his shots from 16-23 feet. If at all possible, he would rather take his 40% 3 than this 42 percent long 2. Sometimes he does not have a choice (16% of the time) I get that.

Dirk is hitting these sh1t shots at a whopping 51.6 which is unworldly. He is so much taller than his defender and he has that (one) step back fade. He is an exception not the rule. Blake will never be able to do what Dirk has done. He may be the best of all time in this space.

do you have a chart that shows when griffin is taking these particular shots in the clock?

you may think it's crazy to do so, but apparently the coaching staff is seeing something exploitable otherwise he wouldn't be taking it. like i said, in the nba you have to adapt or you die.

also, it isn't outrageous to suggest that maybe he is sacrificing some of his personal numbers even in the advanced stat categories for the greater good of his team's offense.

crazy? or perhaps there are nuances that we have yet to fully consider.

there are many nuances to consider. thats what makes it fun.

I don't have data as to when those shots are taken. I can only speak to many of the games that I watched which had him shooting these shots early and as a first option.

perhaps the coaching staff wants carmelo to take contested long 2's. They are obviously condoning it.

To say that Blake is sacrificing for the team by taking stupid shots makes no sense. That is not adapting. I think that Doc is trying to turn him into Kevin Garnet which is not working and I highly doubt will succeed. Blake should be attacking the basket and becoming much more efficient between 3 and 16 feet where he is shooting under 40 percent.

The only thing about Blakes game that is improving is his passing. He has become a very good passer and Doc is teaching him to see the floor really well. The positive about have a real PG as your head coach.

i'm going to ask again: griffin's numbers are down with the TS% i get that-- but is the clippers' offense better as a whole this season, be it from TS% or other measures of efficiency? if yes, then wouldn't there be an argument for making a connection between the two, ie (1)griffin's lower ts% taking the midrange shot within the context of (2)the clippers' doing better as a team on offense efficiency-wise?

then make the argument? Are you asking me to create an argument for you?

make an argument that Griffin's lower TS / his long mid range, low pct - addition has made the clippers more efficient.

well lets start this way: is the clippers' offense more efficient this season than last? i can't find these stats on bbref just totals

I think that they were #1 last year and this year they are #2.

well can you provide a link so i can study the numbers and get back to you?

2014 clippers TS 56.7 off eff 109.4 griffin TS 58.3

2015 clippers TS 57.2 off eff 110.4 griffin TS 54.9

so from the numbers it appears that griffin is sacrificing personal numbers for the good of the team. yes i know there is likely no way of establishing a correlation, but still... there IS a pattern to be acknowledged.

lastly, you will see that he has gotten better at sharing the ball and one wonders if it is because he is in a better place on the floor from which to make the extra pass:

2014 usage:ast rate ratio -----> 29:19.2 which reduces to a really good 1.5:1 for a power forward. i mean REALLY good.

2015 usage:ast rate ratio -----> 29:8.24.9 which goes to an outstanding 1.2:1 THIS IS LARRY BIRD TERRITORY

my guess: it's about floor spacing and putting griffin in a position to be more of a ball mover/playmaker. when you do that as his coach you know his personal numbers will go down but his ability to make others around him better will go up.

i think this is a very persuasive justification for him being on the floor *where* he is throughout most of the shot clock and if the shot is available then he takes it, unless he sees a teammate with an even better look. he's averaging 5 assists per game!

what say you?

dk7th wrote:hollinger:

2014 clippers TS 56.7 off eff 109.4 griffin TS 58.3

2015 clippers TS 57.2 off eff 110.4 griffin TS 54.9

so from the numbers it appears that griffin is sacrificing personal numbers for the good of the team. yes i know there is likely no way of establishing a correlation, but still... there IS a pattern to be acknowledged.

lastly, you will see that he has gotten better at sharing the ball and one wonders if it is because he is in a better place on the floor from which to make the extra pass:

2014 usage:ast rate ratio -----> 29:19.2 which reduces to a really good 1.5:1 for a power forward. i mean REALLY good.

2015 usage:ast rate ratio -----> 29:8.24.9 which goes to an outstanding 1.2:1 THIS IS LARRY BIRD TERRITORY

my guess: it's about floor spacing and putting griffin in a position to be more of a ball mover/playmaker. when you do that as his coach you know his personal numbers will go down but his ability to make others around him better will go up.

i think this is a very persuasive justification for him being on the floor *where* he is throughout most of the shot clock and if the shot is available then he takes it, unless he sees a teammate with an even better look. he's averaging 5 assists per game!

what say you?

Blake as I mentioned previously has become a much better passer. I don't think that has anything to do with him taking 20 footers.

There is certainly a value to spreading the floor, however, these stretch 4's are not usually stretched to 20 feet, because of the return but stretched to 23 for the ROI. I bet he ends up there and this is just a transition. Even at 30% from 3, its still better that 40% from 16-23.

The argument that you are making was an argument against the Tyson TS and how it was overvalued. If he could not spread/stretch the floor, then he is allowing the defense to pack the paint and reduce rim shots for other players. This is the same argument against DJordan.

LA is being moved closer and closer to behind the arc to maximize his efficiency. He is nervous to take them but he can hit them at an efficient rate.

So, if taking a 20 footer is a means to get to a 23 footer then I can see the strategy.

If a player just cant hit the 3, then I still see some value in stretching the floor but he would be best suited to play closer to the rim most of the time and maximize on his mismatches. Just standing around and taking shots in those bad shot positions are mostly harmful in the long run. he is also down 1.5 FT's this year since he is parked more outside.

Good post though ...