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What Can Isiah and the Knicks learn from Detroit????
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Elite
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6/15/2004  4:19 PM
If you ask me, its that we need to go after TOUGH DEFENSIVE MINDED PLAYERS..... forget about all this antwan jamison, jamal crawford , TIM THOMAS bull crap... get some players in here that can play DEFENSE.... cuz thats all that matters!!! Plus defensive teams are more fun to root for.... like these pistons and our 94 knicks


BRING BACK THE D!!!!!!!!!!!
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martin
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6/15/2004  4:22 PM
I would agree, and I think Isiah does have that in mind.

unfortunately the team has to get rid of Houston. He is just too huge a hole in the lineup.

Don't worry, Zeke will do us all a solid.
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TMS
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6/15/2004  4:34 PM
Marbury & Nazr don't play a lick of D either.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
newyorknewyork
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6/15/2004  4:49 PM
U can keep Houston because Rip Hamilton isn't the greatest defender in the world either but his scoring ability is what keeps Detroit balanced.

But we need a Prince who can give Guard/Forward's problems. A Ben Wallace-Sheed who can defend the frontcourt and add shot blocking.

Remember 99. Sprewell was our Prince who could Guard PGs/SGs/SFs. Larry Johnson our Sheed who could guard PFs/SFs/SGs shoots 3s and provide a post up game. Camby our Ben Wallace who could dominate the block with rebounds & shotblocking. Ward & Childs/ our Lindsey Hunter who could provide tough defense to all PGs. Houston our Hamilton who could light up the score board. KT our Corlis Williamson comming off the bench providing post defense and rebounding and 15ft jumpers. Ewing before injury & Dudley after Ewing injury was our Elden Campbell.

But maybe there isn't really any specific formula to win a championship. Soon everyone will believe that winning a championship u need to be like the Pistons then another team will win a championship with some other formula.
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KNICKSdom
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6/15/2004  5:07 PM
This team need a Ben Wallace type player in the frontcourt. That type of player can inspire a culture of playing tight suffocating D like Detroit. It is simple. Defense wins game.
Knicks are happening and have a Unicorn.
Nalod
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6/15/2004  5:37 PM
What have we learned? That Star Phuching the fans with marquee players to fill seats is not the path to achieve. Stars are born thru winning. Billips is a star now, as is RIP and Big Ben. Sheed is forgiven of his sins. But its the winning that can make them "stars".

Letting Grant Hill go and picking up Atkins and Wallace were the catalist for Detroits rebirth. Nobody know how bad he was hurt, and if healthy this team may or may have not come to fruition.

And this team has options that can keep this team in the running a few more years. Darko, Delfino, Okur (Ahh, the dreaded white non americans) can contribute either by playing or thru trades.

Good for the pistons fans and ownership who were willing to be patient for a few years while this team was contructed.

And getting a REAL coach helps! (Getting brown was a Starphuchers move, but in this case he is not coaching past prime players).

Who wudda thunk it would be Joe Dumars, not Isiah that that administrates a championship run (they have yet to win it). And with his original team! Its a nice story. Joe never got all the credit Isiah got over the years. But he got another Ring! Nothing against Isiah mind you, its just a nice story of success.

Now we need for Isiah to get his!

[Edited by - nalod on 06/15/2004 22:33:00]
simrud
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6/15/2004  5:45 PM
Starphucing has nothign to do with it man. The reason the Pistons are so succesul if because of ther ecoach, Larry Brown, who is a star and also due to the addition of Sheed, once again a big name. They were a nice middle of the pack team last year. Add Sheed and Brown and you got a champion. You need both. You need to develop and you need to get big names. Its a balance. You can't just develop, or just get names. The only team that I can thin of that develops their own all the time and had great sucess is Utah. And they never won the title, albeit, MJ was in there way so its not fare to say that. Other then that its all about a balance of big names and home grown difference makers who turn into big names.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
KNICKSdom
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6/15/2004  6:02 PM
But defense still win games. You can have all the stars and team developed players on your team but if you can't play a lick of defense as a team then you ain't gonna win no championship or advance in the playoffs. I recall Knicks used to have tough defensive teams in the 90s that contended year in and year out. I never forget that and championship teams always have a good defense.
Knicks are happening and have a Unicorn.
djsunyc
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6/15/2004  9:01 PM
isiah has a plan. let's see what it is. he's still in a probationary period. we'll see what he's all about after this offseason, the allstar break, and then next offseason. that would give us a good body of work to judge him.

it's OBVIOUS we need defensive players and isiah knows it so let's see what unfolds.

btw, that's why i don't want shareef.
Nalod
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6/15/2004  10:41 PM
Posted by simrud:

Starphucing has nothign to do with it man. The reason the Pistons are so succesul if because of ther ecoach, Larry Brown, who is a star and also due to the addition of Sheed, once again a big name. They were a nice middle of the pack team last year. Add Sheed and Brown and you got a champion. You need both. You need to develop and you need to get big names. Its a balance. You can't just develop, or just get names. The only team that I can thin of that develops their own all the time and had great sucess is Utah. And they never won the title, albeit, MJ was in there way so its not fare to say that. Other then that its all about a balance of big names and home grown difference makers who turn into big names.

The knick formula HAS been starphucking the fans and its been that way for decades. Brown is the real deal and always has been. Sheed was not a Starphucking move as he was an outcast and came cheap. They did not get Sheed to fill seats.

Detroit also jelled in the playoffs as games went on. Give them credit. Sheed is not the star, but an ingrediant. On great teams, no one player should not stand out but collectivly they bind to form a unit of strength. THe knicks of old won with a past prime Jerry Lucas playing out of position for Reed and won in 1973. Im not saying Detroit does not win with sheed, but non-star phuckers save assets and use them wise. The opportunity to get sheed presented itself and they had and could affort to give Atlanta what they wanted.

If the Knicks are taking a different route, then it will take some time and it will be a worthwhile price to have a real team. Major kudos to Joe Dumars, and I reserve Isiahs until we are even further along.
newyorknewyork
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6/15/2004  11:29 PM
Billups=Star
Hamilton=Star
Sheed=Star
B.Wallace=Star


O'neal=Hall of fame
Malone=Hall of fame
Kobe=Hall of fame
Payton=Hall of fame

thats a total of 8 stars between & 2 superstars between them.
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tkf
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6/15/2004  11:54 PM
Nalod everytime you go on this starphuching tyrade, you convince me that you don't have a clue at times... The lakers won 3 rings in a row by your so called star phuching, and had it not been for injuries to malone and Larry brown's great coaching, it would have been 4 rings for the lakers.... Rip, billups and wallace are far from stars, no one will fill stadiums to watch them and Lets see if they will win 3 rings in a row, I mean you know better Nalod, this league is a league of stars and the pistons this year is the exception not the rule, stars will always win rings the majority of the time, If Kobe wants to come to NY, i hope we starphuch and get him... Nalod you are smarter than that, you know how the NBA works, or at least I thought you did....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Bobby
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6/16/2004  12:54 AM
You know, Dumars accomplished the impossible in 4 years. Its gonna be mighty hard for Zeke/Lenny to make that kind of run
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
Allanfan20
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6/16/2004  1:29 AM
There is NO specific formula. You just need to find the right players that compliment eachother. The Pistons, this year, have a group of VERY GOOD players in their starting lineups, with no egos. They all shared the ball, and but also knew when to take their shots. They rarely looked stupid. And on defense, they played together, communicated and hustled their arses off. Same on offense. They just went after loose balls like it was their last chance to win the game, each time. No superstars on the Pistons. Just very good players who love to play with eachother.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Bonn1997
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6/16/2004  1:37 AM
Posted by Elite:

If you ask me, its that we need to go after TOUGH DEFENSIVE MINDED PLAYERS..... forget about all this antwan jamison, jamal crawford , TIM THOMAS bull crap... get some players in here that can play DEFENSE.... cuz thats all that matters!!! Plus defensive teams are more fun to root for.... like these pistons and our 94 knicks


BRING BACK THE D!!!!!!!!!!!
Crawford at SG held the opposing SG to 3 less pts per 48 than he (Crawford) scored according to 82 games. I think his defense is fine, especially considering that he has very poor help defenders on his team. He's also an unbelievably talented 23 yr old.
djsunyc
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6/16/2004  7:27 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

There is NO specific formula. You just need to find the right players that compliment eachother. The Pistons, this year, have a group of VERY GOOD players in their starting lineups, with no egos. They all shared the ball, and but also knew when to take their shots. They rarely looked stupid. And on defense, they played together, communicated and hustled their arses off. Same on offense. They just went after loose balls like it was their last chance to win the game, each time. No superstars on the Pistons. Just very good players who love to play with eachother.

i agree. i think it's all about chemistry. who knows what a healthy camp and a healthy season with this unit can do? what if all of the sudden, we gel and become a 50 win team? let's see how we do before we start telling isiah what he should do. dumars did EXACTLY the opposite of what every other team tries to do and it worked for him. part of that is luck. he took a HUGE gamble with sheed, and it worked out. a healthy nets team, with a healthy kidd may have beaten this team in the 2nd round.
jazz74
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6/16/2004  8:14 AM
as happy as i am that the lakers lost, we can not say that detroit should be the blueprint model. they have an amazing coach who finally get what he deserved a long time ago and a team that know their roles. but history in ANY sport proves that this type of formula works for one year but we will see how successful they are a year later. even if they somehow keep everyone ( which i doubt), i think other teams will improve and will study this team. they have a huge target on their back next season and every team will gun for them. can they handle that without a ceritfied superstar carrying them? they won't be able to sneak up on teams anymore. they did prove, though, that athletic teams can win. i think if we had an athletic frontcourt ( dampier with abdur rahim?), we could be right in the mix. it was also great to see the nail in the coffin of the lakers. i do not see them improving their team at all next year UNLESS they trade one of the big two. i don't think they are going to rebuild but they are failing dangerously into mediocrity territory. a change must be in order in a big way. and last, the east has done it, baby! screw all of the hype that the east are the worse and we will not win a title this decade. no more debate, son. detroit represented the east to the fullest. the east is back!
nykdunk
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6/16/2004  10:07 AM
Great thread. I think it's pretty damn obvious that defense is what wins. We need more defensive minded players. We need a defensive minded coach. And hopefully, Isiah will realize this and move in that direction this offseason. A team must also score, but Detroit showed once again that great defensive teams can shut down great offensive teams. Out of the current Knicks I can think of only 4 Knicks that can play D on a semi-consistant basis: Mutombo, Penny, FW, and Anderson. That won't cut it. Dikembe is too old to keep up with anyone. Penny is nothing more than a role player. Frank doesn't get any playing time. And Shandon sucks. Isiah must realize this and do the right thing. If Isiah, to get more defensive players here, has to look at Houston as the savior, so be it. Our defense was absolutely pathetic this year. That should be the #1 priority. If we lose a lot due to lack of scoring next year, so be it.
tkf
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6/16/2004  10:16 AM
very good post jazz, I give the pistons credit but they did have some things go right, the lakers were hurting, a healthy malone would have made a difference and they were also lucky to get a hurt nets team earlier.. The key to winning multiple rings I think still begins with having a dominant player, a guy who can get it done over and over again, As good as the pistons played the lakers, I still believe that in any given series, they could lose to the nets, pacers and the Heat are on the rise also....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
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6/16/2004  1:56 PM
Posted by tkf:

Nalod everytime you go on this starphuching tyrade, you convince me that you don't have a clue at times... The lakers won 3 rings in a row by your so called star phuching, and had it not been for injuries to malone and Larry brown's great coaching, it would have been 4 rings for the lakers.... Rip, billups and wallace are far from stars, no one will fill stadiums to watch them and Lets see if they will win 3 rings in a row, I mean you know better Nalod, this league is a league of stars and the pistons this year is the exception not the rule, stars will always win rings the majority of the time, If Kobe wants to come to NY, i hope we starphuch and get him... Nalod you are smarter than that, you know how the NBA works, or at least I thought you did....

My tyrades are to grow our own high brand of players, not bring them in after they have peaked.

Kobe was developed in a laker uniform. Shaq alone could not deliver.

Jorden and Pippen were developed in a Bull uniform. The knicks need to commit to breeding their own "stars". That is my point. Of course you need stars to maintain fan support and to win. But its the art of getting them. Do we give up Sweetney and TT (an example) for Cwebb? On paper the obvious answer is yes, but In a season or two, if Cweb breaks down, and Sweets turns into a 15-8 player, we lose his production, or his trade value. THat seems to be the knick way of the past.

Starphucking is the instant gradification fix to jack up attendence with no results. The lakers were able to obtain results.

On the surface, the Isiah-Marbury thing really jacked up interest in the club, which is cool, but all we have is faith at this point.

Faith is believing in something one cannot prove. Thus the knicks played two games better than the season before. Isiah is better than Laydog, and Marbs is a great player. We should install our faith in them, but we need more than that to succeed.

Is Dolan a good owner or a starphucker? Whats more important, winning or a good buzz?

And I will Tirade over the buzz and do what I can to ward off starphucking.
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