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Zach Lowe on the trade
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VCoug
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1/6/2015  3:40 PM
The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
AUTOADVERT
mreinman
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1/6/2015  3:42 PM
VCoug wrote:The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

good stuff.

Phil really screwed up last year.

for now, we did the best we could do.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
Bonn1997
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1/6/2015  3:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2015  3:47 PM
mreinman wrote:
VCoug wrote:The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

good stuff.

Phil really screwed up last year.

for now, we did the best we could do.


Yeah, I'd put it that way. He bowled gutter after gutter last year but this was a nice spare here.
mreinman
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1/6/2015  3:47 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
VCoug wrote:The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

good stuff.

Phil really screwed up last year.

for now, we did the best we could do.


Yeah, I'd put it that way. He bowled gutter after gutter last year but this was a nice spare here.

it bowled 3 lanes over. You can't have a worse start to running a franchise.

(starting when he was unofficially calling the shots)

so here is what phil is thinking ....
yellowboy90
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1/6/2015  3:48 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
VCoug wrote:The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

good stuff.

Phil really screwed up last year.

for now, we did the best we could do.


Yeah, I'd put it that way. He bowled gutter after gutter last year but this was a nice spare here.

So you're saying if it was Tyson...
fishmike
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1/6/2015  3:51 PM
Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
F500ONE
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1/6/2015  3:52 PM
Lowe is SPOT ON!
mreinman
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1/6/2015  3:55 PM
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

height

so here is what phil is thinking ....
BigDaddyG
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1/6/2015  4:03 PM
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

height


I agree. Lowe is overstating Shump's value a bit. I hope he gets his game together in Cleveland tho. I don't blame the Knicks for not making OKC trade. That pick was crap and OKC proved it with their selection. I would have preferred multiple second rounders. That said, using Shump to get rid JR. sounds just as good.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
djsunyc
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1/6/2015  4:05 PM
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

only coach to actually develop young players in 20+ years was mda. and then all of them got dumped as soon as they could. msg is not an environment for development.
VCoug
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1/6/2015  4:07 PM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
mreinman wrote:
VCoug wrote:The whole article is worth a read but here's the section we care about:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-trade-cleveland-cavalier-new-york-knicks-oklahoma-city-thunder/

New York Knicks

The Knicks are in full-on tank mode, and they’re saving something like $20 million in salary and tax payments by dumping Smith and Shumpert for a second-round pick and two trade exceptions. Who knows if the Knicks will ever use those exceptions; Presti just used one to snag Waiters, but the Knicks won’t be in salary-adding mode unless they can snag a pick as the price of doing business.

That could change next season if New York hits a home run in free agency and this deal clears Smith’s poisonous $6.4 million option from its books. The Knicks could still have carved out max-level room this summer even with Smith onboard, but it would have been close, and Shumpert’s cap hold would have torpedoed any such scenario. The Knicks will now have something like $27 million in space — enough to add a superstar and a role player. We’ll see how they do. No team knows better the winner’s curse of signing the fourth- or fifth-best max-type free agent on the market.

The Knicks did not get enough for Shumpert in the end. They balked at taking a low first-rounder for him last season, and now they’ve lost him for tax relief and some flexibility they might not have needed. Yes, Shump’s appeal allowed them to offload Smith, but they got next to nothing for a solid young player, and they could have had $20 million in space this summer even with Smith around. That’s poor asset management, even if Shumpert had worn out his welcome in New York.

It’s all about this summer for the Knicks, though. They’re in the awkward spot of rebuilding around a 30-year-old maxed out star with knee issues. That’s not a situation in which patience is really an option.

good stuff.

Phil really screwed up last year.

for now, we did the best we could do.


Yeah, I'd put it that way. He bowled gutter after gutter last year but this was a nice spare here.

it bowled 3 lanes over. You can't have a worse start to running a franchise.

(starting when he was unofficially calling the shots)

I think Layden and Isiah would beg to differ. Nevertheless, I have little faith in Jackson at this point.

Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
fishmike
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1/6/2015  4:17 PM
djsunyc wrote:
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

only coach to actually develop young players in 20+ years was mda. and then all of them got dumped as soon as they could. msg is not an environment for development.

there have been 4 players in the last 20 years who were Knicks on draft night and still Knicks 4 years later. Those players were Lee, Nate, Wilson Chandler and Shump. Not the best sample size but of all 4 Shump is the only one who didnt vastly improve. The other 3 became very good and are still around the league.

Phil went out of his way during his early tour to talk about setting up a culture where players could develop, improve. I dont remember the exact quote but it was pretty clear that is one of his goals here. All we can do is see if he can deliver on that.

Yes... MDA worked with the youth. He is also the only coach to have any.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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1/6/2015  4:28 PM
Phil is clearly interested in developing youth. He's very much into the D League and we have young prospects with the big team too. It's only going to bare fruit if you can have some of these young guys stick with the program, but sometimes you have to let go of a player when you feel you know enough about him. We need smarter players. Yes you want talent but you also want guys who can think the game so that they will be effective in the Triangle.
smackeddog
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1/6/2015  4:50 PM
I'm loving this revisionist history. Last year we were about to trade shump at the deadline, But he got injured that game. And then at the same time there was the story that the Clips tricked Mills into pretending to finalise a trade for shump to stop him going to OKC. But, hey! let's pretend it was Phil that stopped him from being traded by working behind the scenes before he was hired!
SwishAndDish13
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1/6/2015  4:50 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
mreinman wrote:
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

height


I agree. Lowe is overstating Shump's value a bit. I hope he gets his game together in Cleveland tho. I don't blame the Knicks for not making OKC trade. That pick was crap and OKC proved it with their selection. I would have preferred multiple second rounders. That said, using Shump to get rid JR. sounds just as good.

He's overstating the value way more than a bit. Shump had almost zero value at this point. More alarming but never really talked about in the media (probably since he is popular) is that he hasn't improved and has possibly gotten worse. Also, he really doesn't seem to make basketball a priority. This is a problem. Especially for a guy with a lot of deficiencies.
Cartman718
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1/6/2015  5:04 PM
i will shumpert for sure.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Knicks1969
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1/6/2015  5:15 PM
I have no idea why Shumpert is beloved on this board. This dude is ordained a defensive stopper while every time I watched him play, he has gotten beat by whomever he is defending. This year, he showed a glimpse of what he can be, but not consistently. He is not that good on offense, and marginal on defense. Given that he is due a new contract, I am happy to see him gone. The Knicks should definitely look to acquire Jimmy Buttler or another young two-way SG
Thank God Fisher is no longer our coach, now let's get Calderon out of here:)
GoNyGoNyGo
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1/6/2015  5:18 PM
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

Exactly right. He has not gotten any better and I would argue he has regressed in 4 years.
franco12
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1/6/2015  5:38 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
fishmike wrote:Im sorry, but Iman Shumpert is NOT "a solid young player"

He's a guy who will miss months of the season. He's a guy who shoots 39% and in 4 years has not shown one iota of improvement on offense. While he has shown spurts of high level defensive play he has NEVER shown that over any extended period of time. He's just not good.

We loved the upside as a rookie. He had some really exciting moments here also. He's likable. He's flashy. He's fun. He's got energy. One question... what skill has Shump improved on since his rookie year?

Exactly right. He has not gotten any better and I would argue he has regressed in 4 years.

I think I would rather have Landry Fields!

Its less about whether he developed, was developed, regressed - the simple fact is Shump could not play a whole season without getting hurt.

He sure looked great the first ten games or so - then poof! Gone, hurt. Down.

Nice guy, but I suspect you could get similar performance from and NBDL'er.
MS
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1/6/2015  6:26 PM
Phil has no idea what he is doing. He thought this was a playoff team before the season. -1

He traded Chandler too soon. -1

He added Jose Calderon on a long term deal. -1

He has no assets to show for his first two moves. Fail.

Now we are getting excited about cap space, give me a ****ing break. We have seen how this played out last time. You can be a star anywhere and not deal with the media circus and pressure in NYC. We are in serious trouble.
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