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Larry Bird's comments
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TMS
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6/10/2004  3:31 PM
Posted by jazz74:

this is a man who is the president of operation of a team. he is making generalizations about a race. and that is not offensive? it is not just some shmoe who is playing 6th man on a team. this is a person of power. would a teacher be right if he said " you asians should get A's on the math test"? or a ceo who said that whites have more business sense than blacks? how is this any different than parcell's dumb comments earlier this week? these are the same stereotypes african-americans have been fighting for centuries. then to basically say that we need more white players and the nba is black. that is not alarming?

bravo dude...couldn't agree more.
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Andrew
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6/10/2004  3:50 PM
Posted by TMS:

there are lots of other races of people who excell in other sports who are not necessarily black, or didn't you know that?

Are you asking Larry Bird if he knows that there are lots of other races of people who excell in other sports who are not necessarily black? I think being one he knows that.

Yes you listed a good list...but because you named 10 people who are exceptional at the sports they play does that mean that when speaking in general terms the opinion is not correct.

There is a difference between saying "All of the greatest atheletes are african american" and "generally african americans are the greatest atheletes".

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Andrew
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6/10/2004  4:18 PM
Posted by jazz74:

this is a man who is the president of operation of a team.

Yes...and as a president of a team he said from a business standpoint the NBA needed more white stars (not more white players as you stated). He did not say replace the african american stars with white stars. Tiger Woods was good for golf for the same reason. Having more african american stars in other sports...say tennis would be good for those sports.

Posted by jazz74:

he is making generalizations about a race. and that is not offensive?


Generalizations are made based on race all the time.

Generally Asians are shorter....
Generally white people are more apt to get sunburn....
White men can't jump...

I think you get in trouble when you try to judge an individual based on a generalization. Bird did no such thing. If he did, then I think you can call him out of line.

Posted by jazz74:

how is this any different than parcell's dumb comments earlier this week?

Parcell's comments were viewed as being derogatory towards the Japanese. How were Bird's comments derogatory? I don't see any similarities.
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martin
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6/10/2004  4:22 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:

you think because Larry Bird played pro basketball that he's somehow qualified to make this type of all-encompassing statement? i sure don't.

This is funny. One of the great professional sports figures of our time makes a general comment about other sports figures and you don't think that qualifies him?

The who is qualified then?

the opinion is shortsighted, & wrong...or didn't you read the examples i gave? you want to make sweeping general statements like this, then you should THINK about what you're saying from a broader standpoint then the limited pool of athletes he's drawing from who have played in the NBA...there are lots of other races of people who excell in other sports who are not necessarily black, or didn't you know that?

Are you asking me if I didn't know there are other races of people who excel in sport who are not necessarily black? Are you kidding me?

I don't think it is a stretch to assume that the athletes in the NBA are a representative group who are among the best in the world. From Larry Bird's perspective, however myopic (or not) it may be, those athletes were very athleteic and mostly black. How hard is it to extrapolate after that? It's his opinion, doesn't make it wrong or right. Surely it does not make it shortsighted. Larry Bird was a professional athlete, which qualifies him a lot more than your or I on the subject. For you to empathically say it is shortsighted and wrong is, well, shortsighted and wrong.

By the way, you still didn't answer my original question. If Larry Bird is not a good candidate to make this kind of generalization, than who is?

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TMS
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6/10/2004  4:23 PM
generally as in what context? in basketball, sure...in track & field, yes...is the predominance of superior athletes who play Hockey, Soccer, Ski, Swim, Skate, Weightlift & who are martial artists also "generally black" too? no...which means he was wrong...if he meant to say "basketball players", he should have stated as much...when you make sweeping generalizations, you better make sure what you're saying is ACCURATE.
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martin
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6/10/2004  4:30 PM
Posted by TMS:

generally as in what context? in basketball, sure...in track & field, yes...is the predominance of superior athletes who play Hockey, Soccer, Ski, Swim, Skate, Weightlift & who are martial artists also "generally black" too? no...which means he was wrong...if he meant to say "basketball players", he should have stated as much...when you make sweeping generalizations, you better make sure what you're saying is ACCURATE.

I would have to say that your assumptions are incorrect. To say that because a sport is not dominated by someone who is black also conclusively means that blacks athletes are generally speaking not the best is wrong. It also could mean that black althetes do not participate in that sport much.
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Andrew
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6/10/2004  4:31 PM
David Stern has said on numerous occasions that the NBA has the best atheletes in the world? In general terms do you agree or disagree?

I agree. Put an NBA player up against other top level athelets from other sports based on athletic abililty (not a one sport skill)...say speed, vertical leap, endurance, strength, quickness and IMO other atheletes don't compare.
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EnySpree
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6/10/2004  4:34 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jazz74:

this is a man who is the president of operation of a team. he is making generalizations about a race. and that is not offensive? it is not just some shmoe who is playing 6th man on a team. this is a person of power. would a teacher be right if he said " you asians should get A's on the math test"? or a ceo who said that whites have more business sense than blacks? how is this any different than parcell's dumb comments earlier this week? these are the same stereotypes african-americans have been fighting for centuries. then to basically say that we need more white players and the nba is black. that is not alarming?

bravo dude...couldn't agree more.

you are definately wealthy because you are right on the money
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martin
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6/10/2004  4:36 PM

to put this thread into context there are (generally speaking) 2 types of definitions for racism.

The first is a mild one: belief that a race accounts for differences in character or ability and that one particular race is superior to another. I would note the emphasis on belief (however that may be accounted for).

The other is far more stinging: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Was Larry Bird's the first or the second? Got to believe it was the first.
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EnySpree
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6/10/2004  4:50 PM
First of all Tiger Woods is not Black he's cablinasian....let's get that straight.
(Yes he said that in public on national television.)

Secondly, Bird is basically correct but he is wrong for saying anything like that not because he is White really but mostly because he's holding a position of power. Now he put himself out there for hatred and criticism.

If he trades lets say Harrington for Keith Van Horn would that be because he thought Keith was better or because he wanted to have a white star on his team?

If he trades Crocere would it be because he sucks or because he didn't want to insult his team by having a white guy on the roster.

He did that to himself.

Isiah Thomas (well really Rodman but Isiah agreed) made a comment about Bird being a regular player but is overhyped because he is white. It may have been true to him but it still wasn't something you say on the tele.

People can say what they want about this whole issue but the world according Americans is very racist still. Lets not forget there are some people alive today that were born into slavery or owned actual black slaves. There are corporations out there that helped in the slave trade. The white house was built by slaves. Segregation was only 40 years ago right? My grandparents left the South to get away from it....this is only touching the surface.

Yes, our world is still racist.
And Yes Larry Bird may not be guilty of a hate crime or being a racist.....but he definitely can be nominated for the stupid ignorant mofo award for those comments.


[Edited by - enyspree on 06/10/2004 16:54:22]

[Edited by - enyspree on 06/10/2004 16:56:18]
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TMS
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6/10/2004  5:00 PM
Posted by Andrew:

David Stern has said on numerous occasions that the NBA has the best atheletes in the world? In general terms do you agree or disagree?

I agree. Put an NBA player up against other top level athelets from other sports based on athletic abililty (not a one sport skill)...say speed, vertical leap, endurance, strength, quickness and IMO other atheletes don't compare.

i think decathletes are the best all around athletes in the world.
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TMS
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6/10/2004  5:04 PM
Posted by martin:


to put this thread into context there are (generally speaking) 2 types of definitions for racism.

The first is a mild one: belief that a race accounts for differences in character or ability and that one particular race is superior to another. I would note the emphasis on belief (however that may be accounted for).

The other is far more stinging: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Was Larry Bird's the first or the second? Got to believe it was the first.

when did i even touch on racism? i said what Bird said was ignorant & encompassed only a limited scope of sports in general, because he didn't take into account other sports like i've been talking about. Can we steer clear of the racism charges here? no one is saying Larry Bird is a racist.
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TMS
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6/10/2004  5:08 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

First of all Tiger Woods is not Black he's cablinasian....let's get that straight.
(Yes he said that in public on national television.)

i guess that must mean Cablinasians are the best golfers.
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EnySpree
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6/10/2004  5:15 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by EnySpree:

First of all Tiger Woods is not Black he's cablinasian....let's get that straight.
(Yes he said that in public on national television.)

i guess that must mean Cablinasians are the best golfers.

Yeah....

That's what makes Larry a ignorant mofo. Why did he even say that? It's just stupid.

My mother always said "keep your stupid comments to yourself.....if you ain't got nothing to say don't say nothing at all".

It's like saying latinoes are the best at baseball and soccer.
Like white guys are the best quarterbacks.(Rush is the king mofo)
Like asians are the best at ping-pong and gymnastics.

It's true but you can't say that to the media especially if you have a position of power.

If you are around friends then it's one thing but he is never arounds friends being the head of Basketball Operations unless he is playing golf with his boys or something like that.

I tell you what.....Birds are really good at flappin their wings.


[Edited by - enyspree on 06/10/2004 17:18:12]
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tkf
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6/10/2004  5:27 PM
I mean what is the big deal with Bird comments, he was 100% correct.. And I agree, from a financial stand point white's are still the majority ticktet buyers, I do think that if there was a white star or stars it would be better financially for basketball, but what he said about Blacks being the best atheletes, I have to agree, lets see:

Golf: Tiger woods
Baseball: Barry Bonds
Basketball: This is self explanitory...

I mean what is the problem with what he said?
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martin
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6/10/2004  7:04 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:


to put this thread into context there are (generally speaking) 2 types of definitions for racism.

The first is a mild one: belief that a race accounts for differences in character or ability and that one particular race is superior to another. I would note the emphasis on belief (however that may be accounted for).

The other is far more stinging: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Was Larry Bird's the first or the second? Got to believe it was the first.

when did i even touch on racism? i said what Bird said was ignorant & encompassed only a limited scope of sports in general, because he didn't take into account other sports like i've been talking about. Can we steer clear of the racism charges here? no one is saying Larry Bird is a racist.

Actually you have mentioned race, black, white, and other general racism comments in just about each one of you posts. Birds comments were overtly racist (in a praising way).
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Nalod
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6/10/2004  7:33 PM
It looked like in the context of the conversation, it was not a hurtful comment by any means. Seemed more business like. Magic seemed to agree and went along with the comment. A lot to do about nothing.

Carmelo looks like a teenager. Lebron will be the man. Carmelo is very envious of a lot of things. Carmelo has yet to earn things yet.

Magic has always seen the big picture on the court, in the buisiness world, but not the virus he incubates. On the record, Magic was caught in the moment of the times and did what many of us would have done in those days. I am glad he is still well!
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6/10/2004  8:07 PM
I think people take color way too seriously. At the end of that day we are all dust.

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TMS
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6/10/2004  8:38 PM
Posted by tkf:

I mean what is the big deal with Bird comments, he was 100% correct.. And I agree, from a financial stand point white's are still the majority ticktet buyers, I do think that if there was a white star or stars it would be better financially for basketball, but what he said about Blacks being the best atheletes, I have to agree, lets see:

Golf: Tiger woods

Baseball: Barry Bonds
Basketball: This is self explanitory...

I mean what is the problem with what he said?

& of course, those 3 sports represent the majority of all athletes.
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TMS
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6/10/2004  8:47 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by martin:


to put this thread into context there are (generally speaking) 2 types of definitions for racism.

The first is a mild one: belief that a race accounts for differences in character or ability and that one particular race is superior to another. I would note the emphasis on belief (however that may be accounted for).

The other is far more stinging: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Was Larry Bird's the first or the second? Got to believe it was the first.

when did i even touch on racism? i said what Bird said was ignorant & encompassed only a limited scope of sports in general, because he didn't take into account other sports like i've been talking about. Can we steer clear of the racism charges here? no one is saying Larry Bird is a racist.

Actually you have mentioned race, black, white, and other general racism comments in just about each one of you posts. Birds comments were overtly racist (in a praising way).

i mentioned race because that was what Larry Bird was addressing with his comments...not ONCE did i ever mention that i thought Bird was a racist...so please, can you not put words into my mouth? if you want to take this to a discussion of racism, that's your choice...i'm not even talking about that...

obviously you totally misconstrued everything i have said up to this point...what i said was that his comments were based on a limited scope of athletes & overgeneralized w/o even considering the top athletes of so many other areas of competitive sports & athletic events...& in that sense, what he said was ignorant...ignorant, as in lacking knowledge of fact in deriving a misinformed opinion that overgeneralizes an entire race of people.

now i'm done explaining myself on this...after all, this is MY OPINION...& since you all believe Larry Bird is entitled to his, i guess i am entitled to say he's ignorant as well.
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