franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is he worth tanking the season for?

doesn't really matter if he is or isn't, we seem to be heading that direction regardless.

Thats right. The Knicks are in no way trying to lose on purpose. Its not a good sign that went cant beat a tired poor team that is on 3 games in 4 nights at home? We are likely better with Bargs and Calderon--but will that last? No will we win the championship--no. Then what do u want to do to improve? Weve traded our top picks--what did it get us? Mcdyess Curry and Stephon Marbury.

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is he worth tanking the season for?

doesn't really matter if he is or isn't, we seem to be heading that direction regardless.

Thats right. The Knicks are in no way trying to lose on purpose. Its not a good sign that went cant beat a tired poor team that is on 3 games in 4 nights at home? We are likely better with Bargs and Calderon--but will that last? No will we win the championship--no. Then what do u want to do to improve? Weve traded our top picks--what did it get us? Mcdyess Curry and Stephon Marbury.

What does that have to do with now? We're not in the business of trading draft picks for injury risks and mental retards anymore.

We're not in play to lose mode yet. Still is this kid worth tanking for?

Karl-Anthony Towns is the gem of the draft if you ask me. Still the Knicks are 2 months away from thinking about that ****

I think its going to be a draft that will have more really good players than what was supposed to be the super draft this year. You might be right about Towns --I cant remember when there was such a volume of quality bigs. We should be able to get 1 of them. That Kentucky team really is insane with talent. I usually would never think a college team could beat an NBA team--but I think that Kentucky could easily play toe to toe with Philly.

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

franco12 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is he worth tanking the season for?

doesn't really matter if he is or isn't, we seem to be heading that direction regardless.

Thats right. The Knicks are in no way trying to lose on purpose. Its not a good sign that went cant beat a tired poor team that is on 3 games in 4 nights at home? We are likely better with Bargs and Calderon--but will that last? No will we win the championship--no. Then what do u want to do to improve? Weve traded our top picks--what did it get us? Mcdyess Curry and Stephon Marbury.

What does that have to do with now? We're not in the business of trading draft picks for injury risks and mental retards anymore.

We're not in play to lose mode yet. Still is this kid worth tanking for?

Karl-Anthony Towns is the gem of the draft if you ask me. Still the Knicks are 2 months away from thinking about that ****

I completely agree with you on Towns. He and Mudiay would be top tier picks for the Knicks but I think Towns would be my guy. Pretty sure that Briggs talked me into Reggie Jackson at max, who should be able to do what Mudiay will do in the future. As for Okafor, I'd still tank for him because he'd be a significant and immediate improvement over what we have at the big man spots. We're not winning the title this season so why bother trying to build on this roster?

This draft has alot of small forwards we can't draft because we have Melo and cleanthony and Travis wear in the pipe line.

drafting a point guard is no point if we're running the triangle.

So I can't get with the idea of tanking hardcore unless we have a shot at Towns or Emmanuel.

EnySpree wrote:OK so if we're drafting Okafor or Towns.... so who are we signing? We can't go for Gasol or Monroe if that's who you wanted.

This draft has alot of small forwards we can't draft because we have Melo and cleanthony and Travis wear in the pipe line.

drafting a point guard is no point if we're running the triangle.

So I can't get with the idea of tanking hardcore unless we have a shot at Towns or Emmanuel.

There is a lot of other guys in there

Willie Cauley Stein
Amida Brimah
Montrell Hazzell
Frank Kaminsky

we'll get a good big basketball player if we have a top 10 pick--but the higher the better.

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:OK so if we're drafting Okafor or Towns.... so who are we signing? We can't go for Gasol or Monroe if that's who you wanted.

This draft has alot of small forwards we can't draft because we have Melo and cleanthony and Travis wear in the pipe line.

Indiana had Danny Granger as a quasi-all star and still drafted Paul George. San Antonio had Stephen Jackson/Richard Jefferson and still pushed to acquire Kawhi Leonard. The Grizzlies had Marc Gasol amd still drafted Hasheem Thabeet with the no.2 pick. The Wizards had Gilbert Arenas and still drafted John Wall. The Celtics had Paul Pierce and still drafted Joe Johnson. The Suns had Kevin Johnson and still drafted Jason Kidd. The Lakers had Eddie Jones and still drafted Kobe Bryant. The Knicks had Bill Cartwright and still drafted Patrick Ewing. The Rockets had Ralph Sampson and still drafted Hakeem Olajuwon. The Spurs had David Robinson and still drafted Tim Duncan. So why couldn't we draft a big and also sign a big? We need all the help we can get!

Alot of those ideas failed....Guys had health issues or just ended up being traded. Dallas drafted kidd but they did actually trade for kidd while drafting Steve Nash and still keeping Kevin Johnson around. So I get ebay you are saying....but it would be quite dumb to tank a whole season to get a Towns then max out someone that played his position.

If you view players as assets, it isn't a problem. If players have value, they could be traded for other, more complimentary talent. After all, Bill Cartwright did get us Charles Oakley and Eddie Jones got the Lakers Glen Rice, etc. There is nothing wrong with following a similar formula and have a rookie learn from one of the best at his respective position. It did wonders for Steve Nash and did wonders for Goran Dragic who learned from Nash. When the time is right, then you trade.

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:OK so if we're drafting Okafor or Towns.... so who are we signing? We can't go for Gasol or Monroe if that's who you wanted.

This draft has alot of small forwards we can't draft because we have Melo and cleanthony and Travis wear in the pipe line.

Indiana had Danny Granger as a quasi-all star and still drafted Paul George. San Antonio had Stephen Jackson/Richard Jefferson and still pushed to acquire Kawhi Leonard. The Grizzlies had Marc Gasol amd still drafted Hasheem Thabeet with the no.2 pick. The Wizards had Gilbert Arenas and still drafted John Wall. The Celtics had Paul Pierce and still drafted Joe Johnson. The Suns had Kevin Johnson and still drafted Jason Kidd. The Lakers had Eddie Jones and still drafted Kobe Bryant. The Knicks had Bill Cartwright and still drafted Patrick Ewing. The Rockets had Ralph Sampson and still drafted Hakeem Olajuwon. The Spurs had David Robinson and still drafted Tim Duncan. So why couldn't we draft a big and also sign a big? We need all the help we can get!

Alot of those ideas failed....Guys had health issues or just ended up being traded. Dallas drafted kidd but they did actually trade for kidd while drafting Steve Nash and still keeping Kevin Johnson around. So I get ebay you are saying....but it would be quite dumb to tank a whole season to get a Towns then max out someone that played his position.

If you view players as assets, it isn't a problem. If players have value, they could be traded for other, more complimentary talent. After all, Bill Cartwright did get us Charles Oakley and Eddie Jones got the Lakers Glen Rice, etc. There is nothing wrong with following a similar formula and have a rookie learn from one of the best at his respective position. It did wonders for Steve Nash and did wonders for Goran Dragic who learned from Nash. When the time is right, then you trade.

Yeah but until then you are terrible.

I get we have to be opportunistic, but we have to be smart about it. Drafting a guy them maxing out someone that pays his position sets you back. You have to trade one eventually.

The Knicks are in a better situation now to just make deals for the sake of making another deal later. Whoever we draft or sign it will be pieces that fit what we're doing. I believe we have a treat window with Melo here. For all I know Melo might end up being cartwright.... still we have to be smarter fo to or unique situating

Being "smart" to me is acquiring and developing better assets, which this plan would call for. Yes, there will inevitably be a point where a decision has to be made about who to trade but that should be a welcomed thing and you sound like you'll be dreading it. Why?

No, this approach might not be the best for Melo who wants to win now but I'm a fan of the Knicks, moreso than Melo. More than anything, we need continuity, so that after Melo declines we have another guy that can take the reigns and keep Melo relevant as a Knick. Our pick needs to be a guy that could be the Jermaine O'Neal to our Reggje Miller; the Kobe Bryant to his Shaquille O'Neal; the Magic Johnson to his Kareem; the Kawhi Leonard to the Spurs big 3; Rajon Rondo to the Celtics' former big 3, etc. That's how well run teams stay relevant and always in the thick of the hunt.

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:OK so if we're drafting Okafor or Towns.... so who are we signing? We can't go for Gasol or Monroe if that's who you wanted.

This draft has alot of small forwards we can't draft because we have Melo and cleanthony and Travis wear in the pipe line.

Indiana had Danny Granger as a quasi-all star and still drafted Paul George. San Antonio had Stephen Jackson/Richard Jefferson and still pushed to acquire Kawhi Leonard. The Grizzlies had Marc Gasol amd still drafted Hasheem Thabeet with the no.2 pick. The Wizards had Gilbert Arenas and still drafted John Wall. The Celtics had Paul Pierce and still drafted Joe Johnson. The Suns had Kevin Johnson and still drafted Jason Kidd. The Lakers had Eddie Jones and still drafted Kobe Bryant. The Knicks had Bill Cartwright and still drafted Patrick Ewing. The Rockets had Ralph Sampson and still drafted Hakeem Olajuwon. The Spurs had David Robinson and still drafted Tim Duncan. So why couldn't we draft a big and also sign a big? We need all the help we can get!

Alot of those ideas failed....Guys had health issues or just ended up being traded. Dallas drafted kidd but they did actually trade for kidd while drafting Steve Nash and still keeping Kevin Johnson around. So I get ebay you are saying....but it would be quite dumb to tank a whole season to get a Towns then max out someone that played his position.

If you view players as assets, it isn't a problem. If players have value, they could be traded for other, more complimentary talent. After all, Bill Cartwright did get us Charles Oakley and Eddie Jones got the Lakers Glen Rice, etc. There is nothing wrong with following a similar formula and have a rookie learn from one of the best at his respective position. It did wonders for Steve Nash and did wonders for Goran Dragic who learned from Nash. When the time is right, then you trade.

Yeah but until then you are terrible.

I get we have to be opportunistic, but we have to be smart about it. Drafting a guy them maxing out someone that pays his position sets you back. You have to trade one eventually.

The Knicks are in a better situation now to just make deals for the sake of making another deal later. Whoever we draft or sign it will be pieces that fit what we're doing. I believe we have a treat window with Melo here. For all I know Melo might end up being cartwright.... still we have to be smarter fo to or unique situating

Being "smart" to me is acquiring and developing better assets, which this plan would call for. Yes, there will inevitably be a point where a decision has to be made about who to trade but that should be a welcomed thing and you sound like you'll be dreading it. Why?

No, this approach might not be the best for Melo who wants to win now but I'm a fan of the Knicks, moreso than Melo. More than anything, we need continuity, so that after Melo declines we have another guy that can take the reigns and keep Melo relevant as a Knick. Our pick needs to be a guy that could be the Jermaine O'Neal to our Reggje Miller; the Kobe Bryant to his Shaquille O'Neal; the Magic Johnson to his Kareem; the Kawhi Leonard to the Spurs big 3; Rajon Rondo to the Celtics' former big 3, etc. That's how well run teams stay relevant and always in the thick of the hunt.

My only point is we are months away from officially tanking....It's already in the plans that we are looking at this draft as an important one. The Knicks only have Melo in place. We need to sign a few guys plus adding a quality draft pick this off season...

The teams you mentioned all had winners in place before they drafted guys....also you are a little off with your example. Kobe was 18 when the lakers traded vlade for him after the draft the same year Shaq came over. Magic was stolen from the new Orleans jazz in a bizzare deal concerning gail Goodrich. Indiana traded for Jermaine Oneal for Dale Davis when Jermain oneal wasn't even getting any run in Portland. Kawahi (indiana 15)and Rondo (pheonix 21) were both after thought guys when they were picked that's why Boston and the Spurs were able to get them.

Anyway you need to get lucky. I'm not a Melo fan but we still invested 5 years in the dude. Not only him but Phil and Fisher too....

The teams you mentioned didn't tank. Actually all those teams got those players via trade. Like I said some were bizzare trades others were afterthought trades that turned out to be huge risk/reward deals.

The Knicks aren't in that type of situation. We are auditioning guys for next year. The Knicks are trying to win to get the triangle going for next year. We have money to sign cats. So our luck needs to pan out via free agency and whatever happens with the draft will also take luck.

None of what you said changed the central premise of my point, which is that we need a young player who can develop into a star. Ideally, the player would be someone who could compliment Melo well enough to extend/enhance his career and inevitably assume the "Top Dog" Mantle. Some of the examples I gave did that to varying extents but they did fit the general criteria. And the surest way to find that player is at the top of the draft, which is why we need to tank. No, it isn't a guarantee that you'll draft the right player but there isn't a guarantee you could sign a star via free agency either. And there is no guarantee that you could trade for a star and he'll still be a star with your franchise (see Deron Williams). But at least with my plan, the risk is low since you're not paying an exorbitant amount of money and can continue to build your team accordingly. If we follow your route and sign the next Amare Stoudemire to the max, the team becomes handicap for the duration of the contract.