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I know this is off-topic but....
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keyindabox
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6/5/2004  6:32 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20040605/ap_on_re_us/reagan_obit
LOS ANGELES - Ronald Reagan (news - web sites), the cheerful crusader who devoted his presidency to winning the Cold War, trying to scale back government and making people believe it was "morning again in America," died Saturday after a long twilight struggle with Alzheimer's disease (news - web sites).

"My family and I would like the world to know that President Ronald Reagan has passed away after 10 years of Alzheimer's disease at 93 years of age. We appreciate everyone's prayers," Nancy Reagan said in a statement.

Nancy Reagan, along with children Ron and Patti Davis, were at the couple's Los Angeles home when Reagan died at 1 p.m. PDT of pneumonia complicated by Alzheimer's disease, said Joanne Drake, who represents the family. Son Michael arrived a short time later, she said.

THIS SUCKS. REST IN PEACE RONALD REAGAN.
"I usually mess up, but I learn. I come back sronger. Everyone changes, becomes better people. We all should get that chance. I just want my chance."-Tupac Shakur
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EnySpree
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6/5/2004  7:15 PM
yeah well life wasn't all that during his reign. He just took out the Soviet Union and was the branch to George Bush and W. What the hell....he was involved in alot of BS....whatever.

May God rest his soul.

[Edited by - enyspree on 06/05/2004 19:16:47]
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Chico
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6/7/2004  11:48 AM
The fact that this monster lived as long as he did is proof that only the good die young. At least he went out in agony and without dignity.
TMS
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6/7/2004  12:02 PM
Posted by Chico:

The fact that this monster lived as long as he did is proof that only the good die young. At least he went out in agony and without dignity.

very classy.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Chico
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6/7/2004  12:18 PM
its the truth, ruth. stupider than bush, more dishonest than nixon and with alzheimer's to boot--

was it classy for him to slink out of lebanon after hundreds of marines were killed? no. so what does he do? invade grenada. big man.

was it classy for him to kill tens of thousands of central americans and topple their democratically elected governments?

was it classy for him to give osama bin laden and his buddies a billion dollars? not to mention all those SAM's that shoot down US helicopters.

how about him giving the iraqis all those weapons of mass destruction?

was it classy of him to try illegal endruns around congress, giving weapons to yet more enemies?

was it classy of him to remain as commander in chief despite not being fit for it-- alzheimers'll cut into your ability to lead, command...and remember.

was it classy of him to ignore the Aids crisis, and arrogantly purport that it was God's doing?

yeah, one classy guy. death is the least of this guy's just desserts. if there's a hell, ron reagan is just beginning a long torment, be sure of that...

jazz74
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6/7/2004  12:31 PM
Posted by Chico:

its the truth, ruth. stupider than bush, more dishonest than nixon and with alzheimer's to boot--

was it classy for him to slink out of lebanon after hundreds of marines were killed? no. so what does he do? invade grenada. big man.

was it classy for him to kill tens of thousands of central americans and topple their democratically elected governments?

was it classy for him to give osama bin laden and his buddies a billion dollars? not to mention all those SAM's that shoot down US helicopters.

how about him giving the iraqis all those weapons of mass destruction?

was it classy of him to try illegal endruns around congress, giving weapons to yet more enemies?

was it classy of him to remain as commander in chief despite not being fit for it-- alzheimers'll cut into your ability to lead, command...and remember.

was it classy of him to ignore the Aids crisis, and arrogantly purport that it was God's doing?

yeah, one classy guy. death is the least of this guy's just desserts. if there's a hell, ron reagan is just beginning a long torment, be sure of that...

i agree with the notion that he was not the best president. i remember mentioning when someone said he died that he was a good actor. plus his reaganomics which made the rich richer and the poor poorer wasn't ideal which led to the stock market crash in 87 as well as the recession in the early 90's. don't forget he tripled our national debt. but he was a good communicating president who had the image of strentgh which was greatly needed after carter's reign. as a man, i have to respect him. i also believe in respecting the dead. rest in peace and i hope they have more jelly beans in the afterlife for you.
TMS
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6/7/2004  1:53 PM
respecting the dead was my only point...i think you should keep those negative things to yourself if you feel that way...no need to air it out on a sports message board.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Chico
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6/7/2004  2:18 PM
keep them to myself? but its the truth! i'm sorry you can't handle the truth, but as an american who loves my country i find the whitewashing of history to be the worst thing anyone can do. and thats what the media is doing. whitewashing and ignoring the truth about this villain.

as to it being a sports board, its listed as off topic, its in the off topic section and i didn't even start it.

how about respecting the dead of all the people reagan's f***ed up policies killed. and as far as respecting the dead, would you whitewash sadaam hussein and the terrible things he did? You sound like the people whining about how its the media's fault for releasing the abu garib photos, not the rumsfelds and wolfowitz's who ordered the torture of a jail where 70-90% of the inmates were innocent (red cross numbers). You sound like the people whining when the media told us pat tillman was killed by american bullets (though its true the taliban and al queda have been using american bullets thanks to your boy the gipper) even though it is the truth.

the fact of the matter is communism was gonna fall no matter if it was jimmy carter, ron reagan or gary hart in the white house. Like Clinton and the economy of the late 90's, as far as the fall of commiedom, reagan happened to be in the right place at the right time.


Chico
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6/7/2004  2:20 PM
Reagan gave the taliban the bullets that killed pat tillman and the other americans dying everyday in afghanistan. reagan provided the money to set up the training camps where the men who rammed into the world trrade center trained. no different than the dirtbags who sold dylan klebold and eric harris the guns used at columbine
Chico
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6/7/2004  2:21 PM
How about the fact that they're declaring friday a federal holiday, so that the millions of federal workers get paid with our tax money and do no work. is that classy?
fishmike
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6/7/2004  3:11 PM
i'm sorry you can't handle the truth, but as an american who loves my country i find the whitewashing of history to be the worst thing anyone can do.
This is one thing I could not agree more. I consider myself a patriotic. I have 2 very close long time friends leaving for Iraq this week. I have travelled to pretty much everywhere in this country by automobile. I stayed in cheap campgrounds and did nothing but meet people. I love America, and I think as a whole we are a good people. There is no other place I would rather be. I think this is the best country in the world for a variety of reasons.

All that being said, when you graduate HS what they don't teach you is this great country was founded on slave labor, treachery and genocide. That many of our "great" founding fathers were slave owners. That about 4% of American soil was actually acquired honourably, and the rest we simply took from the native Americans. We shipped them off into camps, "designated relocation areas" or killed or starved them outright. Talk a black man that's a senior citizen. Ask him what it was like growing up in America.

I hate the fact that we have to whitewash history or fill people with fluff to somehow justify feeling good about ourselves or our country. I always thought wisdom was learning from the past, not pretending it didnt happen, or worse, saying something is ok because a guy is dead now.

And yes... work is slow today.
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jazz74
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6/7/2004  3:52 PM
Posted by fishmike:
i'm sorry you can't handle the truth, but as an american who loves my country i find the whitewashing of history to be the worst thing anyone can do.
This is one thing I could not agree more. I consider myself a patriotic. I have 2 very close long time friends leaving for Iraq this week. I have travelled to pretty much everywhere in this country by automobile. I stayed in cheap campgrounds and did nothing but meet people. I love America, and I think as a whole we are a good people. There is no other place I would rather be. I think this is the best country in the world for a variety of reasons.

All that being said, when you graduate HS what they don't teach you is this great country was founded on slave labor, treachery and genocide. That many of our "great" founding fathers were slave owners. That about 4% of American soil was actually acquired honourably, and the rest we simply took from the native Americans. We shipped them off into camps, "designated relocation areas" or killed or starved them outright. Talk a black man that's a senior citizen. Ask him what it was like growing up in America.

I hate the fact that we have to whitewash history or fill people with fluff to somehow justify feeling good about ourselves or our country. I always thought wisdom was learning from the past, not pretending it didnt happen, or worse, saying something is ok because a guy is dead now.

And yes... work is slow today.

as a sociology minor, this is up my alley. everyone has a good point. you are right that our country was built from slavery, greed, and even murder. you can lay claim to about 90% of the world also. as a younger man growing up with public enemy and krs-1, it opend my eyes to the atrocities in our country. how many times have i been pulled over because i was "swerving" when actually i rode through a white neighborhood? or being followed around in a supermarket or store because they are afraid i will steal things? too many times. but i can not be angry at them as i was before. how am i going to be angry at an institutionalized system? the only thing you can do is change it. that is why i busted my butt in college and became a teacher to make sure other generations will not fall into the trap. like being honest about the triangle slave trade, or the civil war was a war about money, not just slavery.so no, my brother, i am not whitewashing. i said i agreed with you about reagan. i did not like him much as the president. but EVERY president had dirt on their hands also. so i can not really call him the villian when we can paint every president in that light. you brought up what he did for iraq and afghanistan. you have to think in the 80's the biggest threat was the soviet union. reagan wanted allies so he helped them at the time. could he have looked in a crystal ball and saw the gulf war or 9/11? no. that is politics. countries can be allies in one decade and bitter enemies the next.
OasisBU
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6/7/2004  3:53 PM
Posted by Chico:

Reagan gave the taliban the bullets that killed pat tillman and the other americans dying everyday in afghanistan. reagan provided the money to set up the training camps where the men who rammed into the world trrade center trained. no different than the dirtbags who sold dylan klebold and eric harris the guns used at columbine

Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire.....in case you dont know what that means - Americans killed him by accident.

Its great that you have an opinion on all of this but you should check where you get your facts from. Were you there when Reagan personally handed the cash or weapons over? Were you around to see any of the deals struck? Do you have any idea why they were made? To me it sounds like you watch a little too much CNN and the liberal media has clouded your mind with their doom and gloom "Republicans did all of this"

How about when Clinton gave ICBMs to China for campaign donations....I mean you are pointing the finger at Reagan for giving a couple SAMS and some $$$....Clinton gave nukes to a country that is our main competition on the world stage - he gave them nukes that can reach our shores and kill Americans on home soil. None of them are clean - thats why they are politicians - however Reagan helped end the cold war, brought the wall down in Germany, and established the United States as the only true superpower in the world.

Clinton - as masterful a politician as he was - did everything he could to make the US weaker, and that is what we are paying for right now. You can have your opinions on Reagan, but history reflects kindly on him...so he must have done more then a few things right.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Chico
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6/7/2004  8:37 PM
I make no claims to being the author of the following. it is written by christopher hitchens, a left wing ardent supporter of the wars in iraq and afghanistan. he is far more literate and supports his facts better than me. i hope by providing attibution and quotes, i'm not breaking board rules.


"Not long ago, I was invited to be the specter at the feast during "Ronald Reagan Appreciation Week" at Wabash College in Indiana. One of my opponents was Dinesh D'Souza: He wasn't the only one who maintained that Reagan had been historically vindicated by the wreckage of the Soviet Union. Some of us on the left had also been very glad indeed to see the end of the Russian empire and the Cold War. But nothing could make me forget what the Reagan years had actually been like.

Ronald Reagan claimed that the Russian language had no word for "freedom." (The word is "svoboda"; it's quite well attested in Russian literature.) Ronald Reagan said that intercontinental ballistic missiles (not that there are any non-ballistic missiles—a corruption of language that isn't his fault) could be recalled once launched. Ronald Reagan said that he sought a "Star Wars" defense only in order to share the technology with the tyrants of the U.S.S.R. Ronald Reagan professed to be annoyed when people called it "Star Wars," even though he had ended his speech on the subject with the lame quip, "May the force be with you." Ronald Reagan used to alarm his Soviet counterparts by saying that surely they'd both unite against an invasion from Mars. Ronald Reagan used to alarm other constituencies by speaking freely about the "End Times" foreshadowed in the Bible. In the Oval Office, Ronald Reagan told Yitzhak Shamir and Simon Wiesenthal, on two separate occasions, that he himself had assisted personally at the liberation of the Nazi death camps.

There was more to Ronald Reagan than that. Reagan announced that apartheid South Africa had "stood beside us in every war we've ever fought," when the South African leadership had been on the other side in the most recent world war. Reagan allowed Alexander Haig to greenlight the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, fired him when that went too far and led to mayhem in Beirut, then ran away from Lebanon altogether when the Marine barracks were bombed, and then unbelievably accused Tip O'Neill and the Democrats of "scuttling." Reagan sold heavy weapons to the Iranian mullahs and lied about it, saying that all the weapons he hadn't sold them (and hadn't traded for hostages in any case) would, all the same, have fit on a small truck. Reagan then diverted the profits of this criminal trade to an illegal war in Nicaragua and lied unceasingly about that, too. Reagan then modestly let his underlings maintain that he was too dense to understand the connection between the two impeachable crimes. He then switched without any apparent strain to a policy of backing Saddam Hussein against Iran. (If Margaret Thatcher's intelligence services had not bugged Oliver North in London and become infuriated because all European nations were boycotting Iran at Reagan's request, we might still not know about this.)

Continue Article


One could go on. I only saw him once up close, which happened to be when he got a question he didn't like. Was it true that his staff in the 1980 debates had stolen President Carter's briefing book? (They had.) The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard. His reply was that maybe his staff had, and maybe they hadn't, but what about the leak of the Pentagon Papers? Thus, a secret theft of presidential documents was equated with the public disclosure of needful information. This was a man never short of a cheap jibe or the sort of falsehood that would, however laughable, buy him some time.

The fox, as has been pointed out by more than one philosopher, knows many small things, whereas the hedgehog knows one big thing. Ronald Reagan was neither a fox nor a hedgehog. He was as dumb as a stump. He could have had anyone in the world to dinner, any night of the week, but took most of his meals on a White House TV tray. He had no friends, only cronies. His children didn't like him all that much. He met his second wife—the one that you remember—because she needed to get off a Hollywood blacklist and he was the man to see. Year in and year out in Washington, I could not believe that such a man had even been a poor governor of California in a bad year, let alone that such a smart country would put up with such an obvious phony and loon.

However, there came a day when Mikhail Gorbachev visited Washington and when the Marriott Hotel—host of the summit press conferences—turned its restaurant into the "Glasnost Cafe." On the sidewalk, LaRouche supporters wearing Reagan masks paraded with umbrellas, in mimicry of Neville Chamberlain. I huddled from dawn to dusk with friends, wondering if it could be real. Many of those friends had twice my IQ, or let's say six times that of the then-chief executive. These friends had all deeply wanted either Jimmy Carter or Walter Mondale to be, presumably successively, the president instead of Reagan. They would go on to put Michael Dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen bumper stickers on their vehicles. No doubt they wish that Mondale had been in the White House when the U.S.S.R. threw in the towel, just as they presumably yearn to have had Dukakis on watch when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. I have been wondering ever since not just about the stupidity of American politics, but about the need of so many American intellectuals to prove themselves clever by showing that they are smarter than the latest idiot in power, or the latest Republican at any rate."
TMS
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6/8/2004  10:48 AM
hey Chico, as far as your ridiculous assumptions about me, i don't even feel i need to address them...you don't have 1 inkling of a clue as to who i am & what i stand for...i don't know how anyone could gather such assumptions out of me simply saying to respect the dead & not air out political views on a sports message board...but you're right, it's in the Offtopic area & i guess you have every right to talk about your political views...just give me warning next time so i can raise a flag & play Glory Glory Halleluja next time you want to go on another one of your rants, ok?

i'm not even going to get into this discussion.

[Edited by - TMS on 06/08/2004 10:49:39]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
jazz74
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6/8/2004  11:09 AM
Posted by OasisBU:
Posted by Chico:

Reagan gave the taliban the bullets that killed pat tillman and the other americans dying everyday in afghanistan. reagan provided the money to set up the training camps where the men who rammed into the world trrade center trained. no different than the dirtbags who sold dylan klebold and eric harris the guns used at columbine

Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire.....in case you dont know what that means - Americans killed him by accident.

Its great that you have an opinion on all of this but you should check where you get your facts from. Were you there when Reagan personally handed the cash or weapons over? Were you around to see any of the deals struck? Do you have any idea why they were made? To me it sounds like you watch a little too much CNN and the liberal media has clouded your mind with their doom and gloom "Republicans did all of this"

How about when Clinton gave ICBMs to China for campaign donations....I mean you are pointing the finger at Reagan for giving a couple SAMS and some $$$....Clinton gave nukes to a country that is our main competition on the world stage - he gave them nukes that can reach our shores and kill Americans on home soil. None of them are clean - thats why they are politicians - however Reagan helped end the cold war, brought the wall down in Germany, and established the United States as the only true superpower in the world.

Clinton - as masterful a politician as he was - did everything he could to make the US weaker, and that is what we are paying for right now. You can have your opinions on Reagan, but history reflects kindly on him...so he must have done more then a few things right.

how did clinton make the us weaker? what state was the united states in when he took office in '93? in flux from a recession and poor direction from the first bush. as a president i thought clinton did well. he strengthen foreign relations with several countries and was a great ambassador. as a person, well, that is another story.
fishmike
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6/8/2004  11:20 AM
hey, TMS... I hope you dont think I was jabbing at you when I put in the "sorry if you cant handle the truth" quote. The part I was really agreeing with was the part about whitewashing history. And yes I know our country isnt much different than any other world power when it comes to such things. It just irks me that we as Americans have this superiority complex, much if it stemming from how this great country was founded. Jazz74 said it best, because the only thing we have control over is ourselves and how we lead our lives. The best we can do is teach our children the truth about what happened in the past, and what makes us great is our ability to move away from it, and grow as people and as a country. Thats what I believe in.

Its hard to have a political debate. Its right up there with religion for too many people. Its their way or no way. I admit I'm biased towards favouring Clinton. My problem with Bush is he has absolutely no regard for the environment. His tax break just gives back to the rich. 95% of the money saved is going to 2% of the population. Thanks George... now that the fed gave me a $600 dollar refund I can feel better about losing my job because my company isnt penalized for outsourcing, or its ok for big companies to save money because they can dump whatever they want wherever they want.

Bla bla bla... this is the part not really worth debating here. The history is good, and Reagans isnt. Chico does have a flare for the dramatic. You *might* keep your audience a little longer is you toned it down some... just a suggestion :)
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EnySpree
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6/8/2004  12:02 PM
taking about politics angers me because you hear peoples views and it hurts your soul.

Reagan was not a good president. Yeah he died and you should respect the dead but during his reign there was alot of hostility living in America. I remember feeling scared of Russians, and wondered why all the fighting was going on in south america cuz things seemed shady even to a kid.

Reagan led a united states that was a bully to the world. Times were the hardest during the times him and the first Bush were in office. We were involved in everything.

Plus their was so much crime and drugs in our cities it was ridiculous. Like I said before the world was very hostile and alot of things done by Reagan and Bush lead to the events of today.

You don't even have to think about it During Clintons 8 years the United States and the world was not as hectic as i was. Now W is in there and before he can get a year the World trade center is blown up. It's just crazy. All of a sudden we have to find their weapons of mass destruction. Didn't the US fund their millitary? Reagan gave guys like Bin Laden power to do what they do now.

Country's like Japan and China are not even involved. To me that is the scariest thing cuz those two countries are slowly becoming superpowers while the US is busy screwing with everyone else.

We are in a recession now yet big business are booming. Every time you look around some new luxury apartment building or some corperation is building a new head quarters. Yet there are absolutely no jobs out there even if you have a degree.

The world today is not a good world and it started with Reagan. Respect the dead but you have to understand what is really going on.

[Edited by - enyspree on 06/08/2004 12:05:14]

[Edited by - enyspree on 06/08/2004 12:07:31]
You know why I'm here....
diderotn
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6/8/2004  12:03 PM
Great conversation, you guys are very high-speed.
The true Knickabocker..........
TMS
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6/8/2004  12:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:

hey, TMS... I hope you dont think I was jabbing at you when I put in the "sorry if you cant handle the truth" quote. The part I was really agreeing with was the part about whitewashing history. And yes I know our country isnt much different than any other world power when it comes to such things. It just irks me that we as Americans have this superiority complex, much if it stemming from how this great country was founded. Jazz74 said it best, because the only thing we have control over is ourselves and how we lead our lives. The best we can do is teach our children the truth about what happened in the past, and what makes us great is our ability to move away from it, and grow as people and as a country. Thats what I believe in.

Its hard to have a political debate. Its right up there with religion for too many people. Its their way or no way. I admit I'm biased towards favouring Clinton. My problem with Bush is he has absolutely no regard for the environment. His tax break just gives back to the rich. 95% of the money saved is going to 2% of the population. Thanks George... now that the fed gave me a $600 dollar refund I can feel better about losing my job because my company isnt penalized for outsourcing, or its ok for big companies to save money because they can dump whatever they want wherever they want.

Bla bla bla... this is the part not really worth debating here. The history is good, and Reagans isnt. Chico does have a flare for the dramatic. You *might* keep your audience a little longer is you toned it down some... just a suggestion :)

nah bro, my post wasn't directed at you...Chico was going on & on about how i was "probably the type of person to think this way & do things that way" blah blah blah...that's all...i have my own opinions on Reagan's politics that i prefer to keep to myself, but that wasn't even the topic of this thread...a poster simply decided to pay his respects to the man's passing...i don't think it called for someone to start bashing on the guy's memory...anyway, i prefer to stay out of this argument, so i'll leave it at that.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
I know this is off-topic but....

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