JR is more like a Kobe Bryant in that he's gonna use his dribble a bit more until he can also learn how to move and get to the open space more often. JR should also be able to get a lot of catch and shoot looks but he has to cut harder and be ready to get that shot up quicker. He hesitates and ends up allowing his defender to get back in position and then he goes into his dribble. One goo thing for JR is that he was moving the ball and finding teammates. That is a GREAT sign.

but

Lets be realistic, Cleveland played HORRIBLE especially Lebron, they not only missed many layups but turned over the ball many times

We played good DEFENSE and I love the effort, but we simply are not that good on either OFF or DEF
We are not very good at the triangle as of yet, as many have said here...

Why are we so focused on instilling the triangle on players on a roster that we have likely no plans of being part of our future
There will probably only be a 5 players, at best, that are still part of our future plans

I am not saying we should drop the triangle but I we just don't have the talent, IQ, verastile skills, post players, and the roster to focus entirely on it
Shouldn't we be looking to learn the triangle and run what works for the players strenghts in order to pump and dump

Why work so hard to push learning the triangle with players that can play much more effectively

Nixluva, I am not saying you are wrong either, but at the same time you are just looking at our positives while keeping your eyes closed on the negatives that you do so but choose to ignore (maybe subconciously)
Just as you did with AB in the past and after our 54 win season, you believed we could achieve the same thing last season, it could be called optimistic thinking or simply poor judgement

We won 54 games that season because we had a chip on our shoulders and had leaders that no longer could play at a high level on the court
However, in the end, we didn't have the talent to actually compete with contenders
We simply overachieved that season and we were the benefit of many injuries of the Weak East

in the end of the game, we went ack to the ISO game, JR Smith taking step back jumpers and NOT playing within the system
We had plenty of POOR TRIANGLES the entire game, and reverted back to Woodson type OFFENSE (but we WON, so the script is written differently)

The idea is to create one on one situations for your scorers or take advantage of back cuts. When the ball is fed into the post the wings cut thru and leave a one on one for the post player. It's all the same goal to get better looks for your primary and ancillary scorers.

nixluva wrote:

RonRon wrote:I am happy we beat Cleveland

but

Lets be realistic, Cleveland played HORRIBLE especially Lebron, they not only missed many layups but turned over the ball many times

We played good DEFENSE and I love the effort, but we simply are not that good on either OFF or DEF
We are not very good at the triangle as of yet, as many have said here...

Why are we so focused on instilling the triangle on players on a roster that we have likely no plans of being part of our future
There will probably only be a 5 players, at best, that are still part of our future plans

I am not saying we should drop the triangle but I we just don't have the talent, IQ, verastile skills, post players, and the roster to focus entirely on it
Shouldn't we be looking to learn the triangle and run what works for the players strenghts in order to pump and dump

Why work so hard to push learning the triangle with players that can play much more effectively

Nixluva, I am not saying you are wrong either, but at the same time you are just looking at our positives while keeping your eyes closed on the negatives that you do so but choose to ignore (maybe subconciously)
Just as you did with AB in the past and after our 54 win season, you believed we could achieve the same thing last season, it could be called optimistic thinking or simply poor judgement

We won 54 games that season because we had a chip on our shoulders and had leaders that no longer could play at a high level on the court
However, in the end, we didn't have the talent to actually compete with contenders
We simply overachieved that season and we were the benefit of many injuries of the Weak East

in the end of the game, we went ack to the ISO game, JR Smith taking step back jumpers and NOT playing within the system
We had plenty of POOR TRIANGLES the entire game, and reverted back to Woodson type OFFENSE (but we WON, so the script is written differently)

This thread is especially for guys like you that aren't quite seeing what is going on here with this team IMO. ISO is ALWAYS a part of the Triangle. What you're trying to do is create the best possible shots for your players. Open shots and one on one with space to operate is the goal. As long as you're getting spacing and ball and player movement then you're doing it right. We don't need strict Triangle. We need effective basketball. The Triangle is a means to an end.

1. This has nothing to do with Cleveland or any of our opponents. It's about how this team executes night in and night out.

2. We don't know how many of the current players will be back. Perhaps Phil intends to keep a lot of these guys as role players, which is very likely. It makes perfect sense to establish this style of play and show proof of concept for any FA that intends to come here.

3. You're wrong about the team not having the talent or IQ to run the Triangle. The fact that you think we need to "run what works for the players strenghts in order to pump and dump" shows me you don't really understand the Triangle. It's not like it's some offense from space. It still has all of the elements of normal BB we all know. PnR, Give and go, Curls etc. There's no need to run anything else. The beauty of the Triangle is that there is no need to call plays. You simply follow the rules of the system and that leads you into all of the other stuff teams normally run. EVERYONE touches the ball and is moving to get open or get a teammate open.

4. With regard to Bargs I've said it many times but really it's about a coach being smart and putting a player in the best position to succeed. I don't believe that has always been the case for Bargs. Now Bargs also has to stay healthy which he hasn't but when he is healthy he has to be used right and I believe Fish will do that.

5. The 54 win team is basically my entire point every year. This team has some talent and when used right they can play at a high level. The coach has to be the one to help them reach their full potential. IMO Woody blew it cuz he didn't help the team when it needed him most in the post season. He actually made things worse.

This year this team has some talent and tho it's not top of the league talent if they're coached well they can achieve more than the pundits are saying they will. That's my position most of the time. I take the maximalist view of what the team is capable of if run correctly, but unfortunately that didn't happen last year. It almost did the 54 win season. Hopefully we have more success this year in reaching our full potential.

Nix, I guess what I am trying to say it

You did the same thing trying to establish that Kidd, AB, our 54 win season
You can show all the highlights and pictures you want to establish your point, while they actually do make sense
Everything is how you think they should play and how they could be effective in the Triangle
But you ignore how these players have been uncomfortable for the most part, probably the least here would be Larkin

Stick with what works for these players, there is talent that fits together in it..........

My point, like others that have pointed out, we all know that majority of these players on this current roster will not be part of the future Knicks
So yes, I do like the points that we are trying to play collectively as a team, but it is also apparent that players like

JR Smith
STAT

simply they don't get it, if there was a trade propsed to Phil Jackson right now, without giving assets, he would do it with no hesitation
JR Smith did have a lot of assist last game but he came in the league right of high school and has been in the league for too long to chance the way they play now
His need to take bad shots, rely on the dribble dribble, step back jumper to bail himself out, was promoted with Woodson, enabling the bad habits that all of his prior coaches have tried to preach to him or given him smaller roles/minutes because of it

No doubt JR Smith has talent but his physical talents are going to decline very fast and he will be out of the league if he doesn't adjust
Even when pointing out that in the Triangle, his ability to shoot when he gets squared for an open shot, is a great plus, he replies back with, him saying he thinks he can do more than just shoot

It is hard for both CA and JR Smith to break these habits that Woodson has enabled
Those Iso plays are exactly what Phil Jackson is trying to break but that is also how we won the game vs Cleveland *who simply had a horrible game, especially with Lebron*

STAT is a scorer, he is not a player that has the ability to post up to initiate the offense, the pass out of the double/teams and force the opponents to make a decision while giving open shots to team mates
Yes, every now and then he will give a good pass, but that doesn't make him a good faclitator, he made a great pass to CA in the game
He will and always will be a horrible defender, will not look box his guy out, will not fight for position to get OFFENSIVE rebounds unless he is in the box,
OFFENSIVE rebounds is a big part of the Triangle with the ability to anticipate a good shot and get back in DEFENSE if unable to do so

Another thing is the outlet pass, what Kevin Love is supremely under rated in
There will plenty of easy baskets that happen within a couple seconds and it starts with even before he grabs the rebound and then throwing it out to Lebron/Irving/Waiters *these 3 will always be ready as both Dwade/Bosh have done successfully the first couple of years in Miami
This is something we should be practicing more in practice and anticipating to do but instead we prefer brining up the ball slowly and play a half court system, just so we have less TO's (in Woodson's system)
Well, we were one of the top tames in not getting TURN OVERS but we were also one of the top teams in being easily anticipated on
Every now and then it will result in a TO but it is easy baskets that allows players to get in ryhtyme and gain confidence

AMARE has looked his best in a long time, put him in PnR's and 1v1 Post up opportunities, instead of him trying to figure out where to be on the Triangle
Simple is better, just keep it simple for some of our lower IQ players/less skilled players but has the skills/abilities to score
His skills simply don't translate to how Pau Gasol was a key piece

I didn't say to abandon the Triangle but we have a rotation of players that fit in with a PnR traditional system
In other words, they don't have HIGH IQ, and poor reaction time,

Larkin (if JR Smith plays the point, have him do the same, try to get him in catch and shoot situations, or penetrate all the way if there is a driving lane, instead of clogging the lanes with the post up)
Tim Hardaway JR *I hope fisher gets to this kid because his willingness to continue to take bad shots deserves the minutes he got vs Clevaland, he simply cannot take shot shots when not needed*
JR SMith
STAT
Whoever, from Acey *which would put STAT at Center*/Jason Smith/Cole Aldrich/Dalembert

When AB returns, I would like to see if he can mimic a bit of Pau Gasol's role in the Triangle, with the mid post and high post, at Center

With the Triangle, instead of the traditional PnR, STAT gets the ball, and he makes the decision to post up, to pass out out of it, to shoot, to drive, or post up
Instead I would rather have Larkin utilize his speed to either force a mismatch with the PnR, penetrate all the way, kick it out for wide open shots with the shooters/scorers we have
Bottem line is that this is a potentially high scoring lineup, and we should be looking to play a fast paced game with to suit these players, versus the Triangle where they need to think, react, and attack together as a unit

Of course if these guys do well, we have a much better chance to win games, and raise their trade value of some of these players
Instead we have them trying to execute a system that these players will be unlikely be part of in the future as Larkin's contract wasn't even picked up for 1.7m (PEANUTS)
Maybe a player like Foye could be traded that would fit that type of system where a team would give an asset for Larkin and his bird rights as a change of pace backup PG
By not picking up his option 1.7m, we already told him that he is not in our current plans next season

Look at the line up again, these are not players that are ideal to run and execute a system together but they all have the ability to stretch the floor, allowing 1v1 post up and lanes to penetrate

Now for CA and Calderon, I understand we should run the Triangle because they are part of our future, but not for our 2nd unit
Again, I am not saying to abandon the system but to adjust it to their personal skills and team overall abilities

Majority of the times the units get in the triangle set, there isn't much time left on the shot clock, then JR Smith breaks the play instead trying to dribble drible and revert back to his comfort zone
We don't have to force him and the rest of that unit to play that way...

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:

RonRon wrote:I am happy we beat Cleveland

but

Lets be realistic, Cleveland played HORRIBLE especially Lebron, they not only missed many layups but turned over the ball many times

We played good DEFENSE and I love the effort, but we simply are not that good on either OFF or DEF
We are not very good at the triangle as of yet, as many have said here...

Why are we so focused on instilling the triangle on players on a roster that we have likely no plans of being part of our future
There will probably only be a 5 players, at best, that are still part of our future plans

I am not saying we should drop the triangle but I we just don't have the talent, IQ, verastile skills, post players, and the roster to focus entirely on it
Shouldn't we be looking to learn the triangle and run what works for the players strenghts in order to pump and dump

Why work so hard to push learning the triangle with players that can play much more effectively

Nixluva, I am not saying you are wrong either, but at the same time you are just looking at our positives while keeping your eyes closed on the negatives that you do so but choose to ignore (maybe subconciously)
Just as you did with AB in the past and after our 54 win season, you believed we could achieve the same thing last season, it could be called optimistic thinking or simply poor judgement

We won 54 games that season because we had a chip on our shoulders and had leaders that no longer could play at a high level on the court
However, in the end, we didn't have the talent to actually compete with contenders
We simply overachieved that season and we were the benefit of many injuries of the Weak East

in the end of the game, we went ack to the ISO game, JR Smith taking step back jumpers and NOT playing within the system
We had plenty of POOR TRIANGLES the entire game, and reverted back to Woodson type OFFENSE (but we WON, so the script is written differently)

This thread is especially for guys like you that aren't quite seeing what is going on here with this team IMO. ISO is ALWAYS a part of the Triangle. What you're trying to do is create the best possible shots for your players. Open shots and one on one with space to operate is the goal. As long as you're getting spacing and ball and player movement then you're doing it right. We don't need strict Triangle. We need effective basketball. The Triangle is a means to an end.

1. This has nothing to do with Cleveland or any of our opponents. It's about how this team executes night in and night out.

2. We don't know how many of the current players will be back. Perhaps Phil intends to keep a lot of these guys as role players, which is very likely. It makes perfect sense to establish this style of play and show proof of concept for any FA that intends to come here.

3. You're wrong about the team not having the talent or IQ to run the Triangle. The fact that you think we need to "run what works for the players strenghts in order to pump and dump" shows me you don't really understand the Triangle. It's not like it's some offense from space. It still has all of the elements of normal BB we all know. PnR, Give and go, Curls etc. There's no need to run anything else. The beauty of the Triangle is that there is no need to call plays. You simply follow the rules of the system and that leads you into all of the other stuff teams normally run. EVERYONE touches the ball and is moving to get open or get a teammate open.

4. With regard to Bargs I've said it many times but really it's about a coach being smart and putting a player in the best position to succeed. I don't believe that has always been the case for Bargs. Now Bargs also has to stay healthy which he hasn't but when he is healthy he has to be used right and I believe Fish will do that.

5. The 54 win team is basically my entire point every year. This team has some talent and when used right they can play at a high level. The coach has to be the one to help them reach their full potential. IMO Woody blew it cuz he didn't help the team when it needed him most in the post season. He actually made things worse.

This year this team has some talent and tho it's not top of the league talent if they're coached well they can achieve more than the pundits are saying they will. That's my position most of the time. I take the maximalist view of what the team is capable of if run correctly, but unfortunately that didn't happen last year. It almost did the 54 win season. Hopefully we have more success this year in reaching our full potential.

Nix, I guess what I am trying to say it

You did the same thing trying to establish that Kidd, AB, our 54 win season
You can show all the highlights and pictures you want to establish your point, while they actually do make sense
Everything is how you think they should play and how they could be effective in the Triangle
But you ignore how these players have been uncomfortable for the most part, probably the least here would be Larkin

Stick with what works for these players, there is talent that fits together in it..........

My point, like others that have pointed out, we all know that majority of these players on this current roster will not be part of the future Knicks
So yes, I do like the points that we are trying to play collectively as a team, but it is also apparent that players like

JR Smith
STAT

simply they don't get it, if there was a trade propsed to Phil Jackson right now, without giving assets, he would do it with no hesitation
JR Smith did have a lot of assist last game but he came in the league right of high school and has been in the league for too long to chance the way they play now
His need to take bad shots, rely on the dribble dribble, step back jumper to bail himself out, was promoted with Woodson, enabling the bad habits that all of his prior coaches have tried to preach to him or given him smaller roles/minutes because of it

No doubt JR Smith has talent but his physical talents are going to decline very fast and he will be out of the league if he doesn't adjust
Even when pointing out that in the Triangle, his ability to shoot when he gets squared for an open shot, is a great plus, he replies back with, him saying he thinks he can do more than just shoot

It is hard for both CA and JR Smith to break these habits that Woodson has enabled
Those Iso plays are exactly what Phil Jackson is trying to break but that is also how we won the game vs Cleveland *who simply had a horrible game, especially with Lebron*

STAT is a scorer, he is not a player that has the ability to post up to initiate the offense, the pass out of the double/teams and force the opponents to make a decision while giving open shots to team mates
Yes, every now and then he will give a good pass, but that doesn't make him a good faclitator, he made a great pass to CA in the game
He will and always will be a horrible defender, will not look box his guy out, will not fight for position to get OFFENSIVE rebounds unless he is in the box,
OFFENSIVE rebounds is a big part of the Triangle with the ability to anticipate a good shot and get back in DEFENSE if unable to do so

Another thing is the outlet pass, what Kevin Love is supremely under rated in
There will plenty of easy baskets that happen within a couple seconds and it starts with even before he grabs the rebound and then throwing it out to Lebron/Irving/Waiters *these 3 will always be ready as both Dwade/Bosh have done successfully the first couple of years in Miami
This is something we should be practicing more in practice and anticipating to do but instead we prefer brining up the ball slowly and play a half court system, just so we have less TO's (in Woodson's system)
Well, we were one of the top tames in not getting TURN OVERS but we were also one of the top teams in being easily anticipated on
Every now and then it will result in a TO but it is easy baskets that allows players to get in ryhtyme and gain confidence

AMARE has looked his best in a long time, put him in PnR's and 1v1 Post up opportunities, instead of him trying to figure out where to be on the Triangle
Simple is better, just keep it simple for some of our lower IQ players/less skilled players but has the skills/abilities to score
His skills simply don't translate to how Pau Gasol was a key piece

I didn't say to abandon the Triangle but we have a rotation of players that fit in with a PnR traditional system
In other words, they don't have HIGH IQ, and poor reaction time,

Larkin (if JR Smith plays the point, have him do the same, try to get him in catch and shoot situations, or penetrate all the way if there is a driving lane, instead of clogging the lanes with the post up)
Tim Hardaway JR *I hope fisher gets to this kid because his willingness to continue to take bad shots deserves the minutes he got vs Clevaland, he simply cannot take shot shots when not needed*
JR SMith
STAT
Whoever, from Acey *which would put STAT at Center*/Jason Smith/Cole Aldrich/Dalembert

When AB returns, I would like to see if he can mimic a bit of Pau Gasol's role in the Triangle, with the mid post and high post, at Center

With the Triangle, instead of the traditional PnR, STAT gets the ball, and he makes the decision to post up, to pass out out of it, to shoot, to drive, or post up
Instead I would rather have Larkin utilize his speed to either force a mismatch with the PnR, penetrate all the way, kick it out for wide open shots with the shooters/scorers we have
Bottem line is that this is a potentially high scoring lineup, and we should be looking to play a fast paced game with to suit these players, versus the Triangle where they need to think, react, and attack together as a unit

Of course if these guys do well, we have a much better chance to win games, and raise their trade value of some of these players
Instead we have them trying to execute a system that these players will be unlikely be part of in the future as Larkin's contract wasn't even picked up for 1.7m (PEANUTS)
Maybe a player like Foye could be traded that would fit that type of system where a team would give an asset for Larkin and his bird rights as a change of pace backup PG
By not picking up his option 1.7m, we already told him that he is not in our current plans next season

Look at the line up again, these are not players that are ideal to run and execute a system together but they all have the ability to stretch the floor, allowing 1v1 post up and lanes to penetrate

Now for CA and Calderon, I understand we should run the Triangle because they are part of our future, but not for our 2nd unit
Again, I am not saying to abandon the system but to adjust it to their personal skills and team overall abilities

Majority of the times the units get in the triangle set, there isn't much time left on the shot clock, then JR Smith breaks the play instead trying to dribble drible and revert back to his comfort zone
We don't have to force him and the rest of that unit to play that way...

ronron i don't think with the notion of culture change you can proceed with half measures. every guy is getting paid to do a job and when that job involves learning how to play "a better kind of basketball" (fisher's edict) then you take your lumps as you learn. as nixluva has shared via some videos, the triangle does in fact have the potential to break down into a two-man game towards the end of the clock.

at the end of the day the knicks have to look like they are moving in a very specific direction, and knowing that several players are not part of the future should not preclude making them play the way the coach wants them to play. if that means a couple of less wins then i say so be it.

Remember how hard it was for Melo to get space last year? Help Defenders were always in his way and now those defenders are being pulled away cuz in the Triangle there are cutters and guys moving on the other side of the court that can't be left alone. After Phil makes his moves I don't doubt that he'll bring back some of these role players who show they can excel in this system.