yellowboy90 wrote:Are the Knick getting picks for taking on their problems? If not then no. Lakers would definately have to come off a 1st rounder for a team to take on this version of Kobe and his contract. It would be smart for the Knicks to not help the Pacers and let them suffer for their mistakes of over paying players like Hibbert, West, and George Hill. The Pacers would have to give up two future 1st and some second round picks.

I wouldn't any picks to be received. It's difficult to justify us receiving picks, when we are also receiving the best player in the deal. I can't recall a single instance in the NBA when that occurred.

I understand you don't like Kobe Bryant but the Lakers are still making bank because of him in spite of being awful. No rational team would surrender a cash cow AND picks, as a lottery team. Beyond that, Bryant is not that far removed from his prime and is looking pretty good. His "looking pretty good" was enough to be a mainstay in a perennial contender that captured 5 titles and 7 Finals appearances. I'd be happy to have him aboard.

As for the Pacers, there players are a bit overpaid but we likely couldn't do better in free agency anyway. They are only under contract for 2 more seasons, so I'm not concerned about how hefty their price tag is especially if it involves us only surrendering expirers. That core was good enough to form the best team (record wise) in the East, which is more than we can say about our current team. Between them and Kobe, with Melo, we could theoretically take the East and make the most of Melo's dwindling prime.

VCoug wrote:No way to Kobe unless we're getting 1st round picks back for taking on his $25M salary. He's 36 years old and is coming off devastating injuries each of the last 2 seasons. And three years ago he only played 58 games.

The Pacers aren't trading those guys unless they're getting assets back, not just expiring contracts. And what assets do we have? Paul George will be back next season and they should be adding a lottery pick. They should very quickly be back in contention.

Kobe's deal is manageable considering that he's only got one more year on his deal and the fact that the cap is expected to increase substantially. Sometimes, you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best. Given Kobe's track record of soldiering through injuries, he's the kind of player I'd take that kind of risk on. Hell, he's played through injuries his entire career.

As for the Pacers, I was thinking of sending them Shane Larkin, Cleanthony Early and Iman Shumpert as sweetners but definitely no picks. David West is 33, turning 34 and Luis Scola is 34 turning 35 (I think). How many years do those two really have in the league? It's a major reason why I think the Pacers would dump them in a deal because they no longer serve an immediate purpose and no longer offer any future incentives. Add in two of the more unappealing contracts in the league and you get what should equate to a salary dump.

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:We have a plethora of expiring contracts at a time when the Pacers and Lakers would be interested in blowing up their rosters. If we had the opportunity to acquire Kobe Bryant and Paul George's old supporting cast, should we do it? Is two years worth of title contention worth sacrificing an opportunity to draft Emannuel Mudiay, Karl Towns or Jahil Okafor?

For what it's worth, all the incoming players (save for a Luis Scola or a Chris Copeland), have played in the triangle due to Brian Shaw's stint as an offensive coordinator. Because of that, I don't think it'd take long for such a team to gain traction despite such a drastic shake up. With the East as open as it is, I'm leaning toward liking the idea. This Knick team could even beat the Bulls in a 7 game series in my opinion.

STARTERS
Jose Calderon...PG
Kobe Bryant...SG
Carmelo Anthony...SF
David West...PF
Roy Hibbert...C

ROTATION
George Hill...G
Tim Hardaway JR. ...SG
Chris Copeland...F
Luis Scola...F/C
Jason Smith...F/C

BENCH
Pablo Prigioni...PG
Travis Wear...F
Cole Aldrich...C

1) I can't see any actual/practical permutation of trades ( that the other franchises would actually consider) that could assemble this roster.

2) There is almost no actual way for the Knicks to draft Mudiay, Towns and Okafor. Period. Not unless they traded Melo. The closer it comes to the actual NBA draft, the more big men move up the boards. As a 30-35 win type treadmill team for the next three years, the Knicks won't have a pick anywhere near to get that kind of talent. Not if you are picking in the likely 9-12 range in the first round.

3) Opening up cap space has a variable value depending on the team. A team like LA or Miami, that space is more valuable than to an Indiana or Minnesota or any other franchise that prime free agents have no interest in. Indiana can carve out a historic amount of cap space, then what? Then they will have to overpay roster churn to hit the salary floor. And how often does carving out a huge amount of cap space work for most teams? Even teams that hit that rare jackpot ( look at McGrady and Grant Hill to the Magic), it can blow up in your face.

LeBron to Heat then back to Cleveland
Shaq to LA
Nash to Phoenix

How many impact free agents actually hit the market? How many actually change the trajectory of said team? Out of how many free agent signings over the years?

4) Like most proposed trades on this board, rarely does the poster say to themselves, "Ok if I was the NON KNICKS GM and team, why would I practically make this deal?" I can see why the Pacers would want to dump Hill, he's owed 8 million a year for the next three full seasons, but Hibbert and West have far more value, if they were traded, than what the Knicks can offer.

5) Knicks fans have to stop making trade shake ups that end up forcing one player to carry the defensive load. That's how, if the trade was possible, you mentally break a player. Do you want a perimeter defense held up by aging Mamba, aging Calderon and the ever defensive wonder in Melo? Do you want five starters where three are considered ancient by NBA terms?

Most trade scenarios I've seen on this board amount to basically prison rape. It's generally the Knicks offloading players that no one clearly wants and have no practical long term/short term use to anyone ( there's a reason the Knicks don't want them) and the Knicks either taking in better talent ( to the point where the trade looks like a gang rape in a prison shower) or eating some declining players next 2-3 years of a bloated deal. Usually with no regard for actual team chemistry ( West is a clear veteran locker room leader, do you think he can function with Kobe Bryant chasing Jabbars record and launching every shot he can all game? Do you think Hill will sit on that bench and just say nothing? )

Crazy concept here - The Knicks problems is like having a 450 pound person in the room. That person didn't get to 450 overnight. It was a series of small decisions, daily, added up, that led to the big mess. And it's going to take a series of small decisions, daily, added up, to get out of that hole.

The Knicks, slow and steady, are going to have to build through the draft. There really are no true quick fixes here. Even the Miami Big Three took YEARS to plan and execute. It took YEARS to clean out and plan to empty out those contracts to take in two max players. The groundwork took a long time. The Clippers took YEARS of drafting to build enough assets to trade for Paul and still have enough left over to be an elite team. The Thunder and Spurs took YEARS of adding pieces onto their core to get where they are. The Cavs suffered for YEARS, to try to build enough assets then clear enough space to take LBJ back into the fold.

THERE ARE NO QUICK FIXES. THERE IS NO MAGIC TRADE OUT THERE THAT WILL FIX A DECADE OR MORE WORTH OF DAMAGE AND PROPEL THE KNICKS INTO CONTENDERS OVERNIGHT.

There's only the Knicks trying to offload their roster churn and roster trash to take in other team's long term miscues and problems. That's not a fix. That's not how to build a winner.

1.) Expiring contracts should be all you'd need. As I said before those guys are all on their way out of the league and can't command much more value than that. More importantly, it is in their current teams' best interest to tank, so I don't expect much haggling to go on. Besides, we can get some young underperforming players on rookie contracts like Thomas Robinson, Meyers Leonard, Derrick Williams, Evan Turner, etc. via a three way trade (using expirers) that should placate the Pacers or Lakers.

2.) Last year we won 37 games with Carmelo, so it's possible for us to tank with him. Meanwhile, the Cavs won 34 games and got the no.1 overall pick. It may not happen often but there is a sizeable enough sample of teams that win about 30 games and get a top 3 pick like the Clippers in 2011 whose pick was no.1 overall with 32 wins, or the Bulls during Derrick Rose's draft, etc. With the East improved and half our rotation filled with players who struggle to play 50-60 games a season, I think it is very possible for us to be bad enough to land a Mudiay, Towns of Okafor.

3.) Cap space is not simply a tool to sign a superstar. Instead it is a tool that maximizes a team's flexibility in rebuilding. It's funny you suggest how cap space is inconsequential to small market teams but where would the Pacers have been had they not been able to use theirs to sign David West? Where would the Thunder have been had they not used their cap space to acquire draft picks that lead to Serge Ibaka, Reggie Jackson, Perry Jones, etc.? Good teams know how to properly use cap space. Bad teams don't but that doesn't mean it should be a larger indictment of cap flexibility.

4.) Hibbert is the Bargnani of defense, plain and simple. There isn't much value in a big man whose baseline is about 13 and 8 that frequently logs 0 and 0 games during the most critical moments of a season. Let's also not forget that he's widely inefficient as an offensive big man. He's not worth his money, even with the culture of overpaying semi-decent big men. You could even make the argument that he isn't even a starter in this league. But he CAN contribute to a winner and we won't have many options available, so I'd take him if West, Hill, Scola and Copeland came along.

5.) Kobe can still hold his own on defense and when we need stops, we could always bring George Hill off the bench to pair with him. In any case, Roy Hibbert would be there to clear up forays to the rim, which is the only thing he brings consistently. The Mavericks used a similar strategy with Tyson Chandler in 2011 and they managed to win a title. Hibbert may not be as good at protecting the rim as Chandler but he can achieve similar results.

And there are no overnight fixes? The Boston Celtics went from bottom fedder to champion in just one season after acquiring Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. The Lakers had a similar rise to champion after acquiring Pau Gasol. The Pistons were a middling team in the grand scheme of the league but after they acquired Rasheed Wallace, won the title. Some fixes do happen overnight and sometimes, they don't include much more than expiring contracts (see the Gasol and Rasheed Wallace deal).

As far as team chemistry is concerned, I don't see an issue. ALL incoming players (save for Scola and Copeland) have played in the triangle, courtesy of Brian Shaw. Because of that, I don't expect the learning curve to be as steep as one would presume with such a dramatic shake up. All the involved have been exceedingly successful in playing team-oriented ball and there is a clear, established heirarchy that would prevent toes from being stepped on e.g. Calderon being a veteran and starting instead of Hill who is a mild-mannered neophyte, who came off the bench both as a Spur and Pacer.

And stop with the anti-Kobe nonsense. The man has 5 titles and 7 Finals appearances, so he knows how to win. Would he like Jabber's scoring record? Sure but not at the expense of winning big. He's already frustrated with the losing the Lakers are doing, so I think he'd more than welcome a change as he pushes for his 6th and 7th rings, which mean more to him.

1- STAT's contract 23-25m
2- AB contract 12m

other combination of contracts that could add up

EVERYTHING BELOW HERE CAN ADD UP to a massive trade

3- Is Calderon tradable? Not alone but lets say, Calderon and some throw ins for Josh Smith (14m)

4- JR Smith 6m, 6.4m (player option)
who looks like he just cannot break his habits of street ball, he is still relying on his step back dribble drible jump shot,

5- 3.6m trade exemption (have 1 year to use of date of trade for Tyson Chandler) cannot be used to combine salaries but could be used on ONE player/contract like Wroten, who I am really impressed with, or maybe role palyers like James Johnson/Dante Cunningham

6- the rest
Samuel Dalembert 3.9m (not fully guranteed, expiring)
Jason Smith (3.3m expiring)
Pablo Prigs (1.7m, partial guaranteed 1.8m which has inventives that could push it up)

Iman Shumpert 2.8m, 3.8 (if we extend him a qualifying offer, his value will depend on what he does this season as his value isn't high now)

Tim Hardaway JR (probably our highest trade value player but has bad habits like JR SMith being a gunner, I

Larkin 1.6m, 1.7m (don't think we picked up his option while it isn't much money for a young player, look at the past 5 years that Bulls have gotten out of a veteran minimum pick up at the backup PG, letting them go each year for another player

and throw ins if needed, whos value could go up drastically if they play potential this season not saying we have to make all these trades
Cole Alrich
Cleanthony Early
Acey

draft rights for
Tenacious
Lous Lafayeette

Just pointing out, that we do have the ability to match salaries for possible trades

All these contracts, could add up to many different type of talents, though we have limited assets to use to persue talent
If we can sell high on Tim Hardaway JR, like a 1st rounder and 2 early/mid 2nd rounders, or 3 later 2nd rounders

PG
SG
CA
PF, I think this position is very probably the most important to team up with CA and Gasol, a player like Thad Young would fit very well in my opinion with today's game with SF playing PF's, my 2nd option could be Millsap/Rudy Gay
For the traditional Triangle, David West would fit very well, allowing CA to play inside out
Marc Gasol, a very skilled big but not as versatile as a younger Pau Gasol

Role players/Bench

Cole Alrich (we have his early bird rights in which we could give him a contract to put us over the salary cap to use the FULL MLE this summer vs just the Bi Annual Exemption)
Tenacious
Randy Foye if available, who could also be a starter on some nights, contract being 2-4m per year
Wear (would not be surpised if brought backa couple of D League players that we will be developing with the triangle, some of which were on our training cap roster)
Matt Barnes *is getting older but has familiraity in the Triangle and Phil Jackson, who has team option, a short term contract from vet min to 2m per year
Shawnee Williams as a rotation F for DEF and ability to spread the floor
Early, will he develop by next sesaon in to a rotation player? Will be play SF, SG/SF (which he has to work on his speed/quickness/handle/and shot *that he has a decent stroke already*, or will be bulk up to play some stretch 4 to defend the Lebrons/Durants and SF's that can play PF's

2015 1st rounder, Darkari Johnson?? Terry Rozier???
Can we purchase 1-2 2nd rounder's in this draft?
Can and should we trade for Josh Smith for either AB expiring or in next season with Calderon + fill ins

WE don't know who is going, who is coming, who has genuine interest in playing in NY
Does a Kevin Durant or Noah even have interst to play with the NYK's?
We have to save enough salary to sign them outright, after 2017, though the cap is predicted to rise 10m and maybe even more, as our assets are quite limited in trades unless they force the issue like Kevin Love did and we somehow get more assets, with either our own draft pick this summer *which we can trade at draft night* and/or being able to sell high on our own players from

Tim Hardaway JR
Acey
Iman
JR Smith

PG
SG

CA

David West or Thad Young or Millsap *would have liked Vucevic but he resigned at a near max extension*
Marc Gasol or a trade for David West/Hibbert if Marc Gasol is unavailable, other options include Asik/Lopez who are good role players but we lack the STARS

For the PG/SG position, it really depends on how we will up the PF and Center
Can we flip Calderon or not and should we roll the dice on a talent such as Josh Smith if so
I don't think JR Smith will ever get the triangle, he is a very good shooter that needs to be restricted on freedom because he relies on his ability to dribble drible, step back jumper that is a chemistry killer
It also makes CA feel the need to carry the load when Smith misses, having a multiple effect on CA's willingness to play within a system

PG/SG
A combination of

Iman Shumpert - if we can be keep him for cheap, like 2.5m-4m on a short term deal till he improves more, I am all for it but anything above 5m, I just don't think we could do so with the contracts of Jose Calderon/CA making 30m and the holes we need to fill...

Tenacious

Randy Foye *he is a very good shooter like Calderon but with better DEF and not as much facilitating skills *which actually isn't needed as much for the Triangle in which even Iman Shumpert can play the Lead Guard if the other 4 players space themsevles correctly and are threats with player/ball/purpose movement, Denver has a team option on him at about 3m but they likely will try to save money as they have
Nate Robinson, Wilson Chandler *team option*, Gallo *12m per year and risky with injuries*, Affalo *does Denver resign him or not, if they do, I am pretty sure they will look to cut some talents from Foye/Wilson Chandler or if they can trade McGee for a salary dump, with the resigned Manimal, with Hickson/MosGoV being cap friendly solid talents(they have Nikola Jociv who is very comparable to a younger Vucevic that many here hoped we were able to draft instead of Iman Shumpert *picked 1 pick before us because Dantoni had to win meaning less games in meaningless seasons*)

Langston Galloway

Travis Wear
Jamall Haggins *I really like this kidd and think he would work very well in the Triangle and he was unsigned 2 years ago and developing overseas, he was a top rebounder/shot blocker/defender in his draft class and his game is comparable to a Trevor Booker/Kmart, he has the ability to post up and facilitate, good mid range game, and high motor
Copeland
Cole Alrich/Jason Smith *vet min for player option on 2nd year after overpaying for him this year in which we would have his early bird rights after 2nd year*, I like Aldrich and think he is really under rated and Jason Smith is closer to a undersized Center than a starting PF

Jason Smith, there are many of cheaper players I would have rather had like Jeff Adrien, Ed Davis, Edoh

Josh Smith if we can trade Calderon and fillers *NO PICKS*, in the summer or next season, IF Livinston suffers a major injury, I wonder if we could get back David Lee with Calderon, Tim Hardaway JR, and Fillers
Although the DEFNSE would suffer, having Calderon added to the splash brothers, would have 3 players that could hit the 3pter at a very high % rate and all have the ability to play on and off the ball
I do think we can pump and dump a lot of our roster and that should be our #1 goal this season, we need assets whether to draft or use in future trades

Question Marks???

We used another 2nd round pick just to save a couple million, along with a possible swap, for Moultrie who was a 1st rounder, I think it was a complete waste if we had no intention of giving a chance to Moultrie to develop just to save a roster spot for Wear, I would much rather eat the contract of Outlaw than lose more assets than we missing
I do like Wear but not at the cost of losing a 2nd round pick to save a couple million, instead I would rather save those picks with more assets to unload STAT/AB for a large trade exemption that we could use in our near future, from 1 year of the date of the trade

Cleanthony Early/Tim Hardaway JR/Acey, I don't think they are NEEDS and could be converted in to asset's that we desperately need if we are looking to do future trades
ALL players could spark interest and raise trade value signifigantly
With Acey, he will be a RFA with a 1.2m possible qualifying offer, in which we decided NOT to exercise Larkin who is only 500k more, while CA and Calderon both combine to eat 30m of our cap space alone, we are nickle and diming talents that actually could exceed their contracts
In order to upgraded our positions, We will likely overpay for talents as well, I don't think Marc Gasol is worth a max contract but with players like Burks getting over 10m a year, it is hard to not expect Gasol getting payed a max, virtually young player feels they could/should get a max or at least 9-12m contract, while many vet min players and low contract players like Sessions, Foye/Nate Robinson, Dejuan Blair, Aaron Brooks, are underpaid

The AB trade really killed us, AB is not even a good 3pt shooter, while Copeland showed he was one and was able to play in NYK
Trading the 2016 1st rounder and 2 2nd picks, in which we could use to draft/trade/tank to get better and the 2 2nd rounders can be used to stash talents with their rights like we did with Tenacious/Louis Lafayette, we could have had Corey Jefferson stashed, along with the ability to make possible trades

For qualify backup PG's look at how cheap the Bulls are, rather than sticking with players that have developed chemistry and performed well year after year, they always look to find cheaper players and rebuild that chemistry/role though they have done it very successfully
If CA signed with The Bulls last summer, he would have had a opt out after year 3, in which the cheap Bulls would lowball him when he is 33-34ish

In no order

John Lucas
CJ Watson
Nate Robinson
DJ Augistine

now they have E'Twaun Moore (unguaranteed contract, with team option next season) like Nate Robinson was and Aaron Brooks on the vet min
I think both players are very solid role players and have good speed/quickness chance of pace PG's, and E'Twaun Moore who is also very athletic, strong, good size/length and is a decent defender, while Ben Gordon gets paid for doing nothing the past couple of years

Along with the PG's that have and are in The Bulls
Donald Sloan PG/SG *is an interesting player who I thought played very well in Cleveland and was surprised when they let him go for nothing along with Hickson*
including undrafted talents in

Deonte Burton
Sean Kilpatrick
DeAndre Kane
Kendall Williams
Bryce Cotton *a shooter like Patty Mills that was signed by SA to a unguaranteed 2 year deal*

Cheap options
Langston Galloway
Garrett Temple
Jared Cunningham *once compared to Westbrook's athletisim*
Jimmer, playing a Kerr like role, if we can add ball handlers on point forwards or SG's with handles, ie, Odom, even David Lee and lets say a Lou Williams/Iggy

A bit more, 3m-5mish

Some other possible UFA's include,

Jeremy Lin *after a year of learning with Kobe, for a contract from 3-5m*
Louis Williams if he is able to regain his speed/quickness

Gary Neal
Mo Williams
Brian Roberts

Jamal Crawford team option, but also unliklely, *his ability to hit bad shots and hit high % FT's as he has shown he can play in a system unlike JR Smith who wants to do more than he should*
"once a knick, always a knick", After we assemble our core, I will miss 2 way talents like Ariza/Wilson Chandler (add rotation of Iman,Tenacious, Acey) even David Lee, all if which have a multiple effect

RFA's, not sure with this market, some players get money while better talents have trouble getting guaranteed minimum talents, very poor balance for those bottom tier players

In addition to Reggie Jackson *who I like but would not give anything close to 10m per year*
Like Jackson, Brandon Knight, unlikely, as he will more than likely have a break out year on the Bucks, after seeing what Utah recently gave Alek Burks, who is on a contract year like Jackson

So do we use our cap space to get a PG in the range of 10-12m?

the 3 PG's that I see that will cost the most money this summer will be Dragic, Rhondo, and Parker
However, we have a lot of holes to fill and unless Calderon is traded, it is probably unlikely with this system, especially with the way their are qualities bckup PG's that can be had for the vet min or in the range of 2-3.5m

Dragic (it would be wise for Dragic to choose his own destination, as he will be traded if he resigns *unless they are willing to overpay for him, when they already have commimitements to Bledsoe, IT2, Tyler Ennis, Arhcie Goodwin

Rhondo

Paker