Splat wrote:Lin's best moment is the image I'll always have of Calderon. That was one of the all-time best In Yo Face buzzer beater shots ever! Calderon ate the big one that night.

He also got locked frack down by Shumpert....so much for his great offense and ability to orchestrate.

A tribute for nixluva....let's roll the video tape....

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The Knicks have enough talent to compete in the East. More importantly we now have the coaching this team needed to keep improving and to be more effective in the playoffs. The Raptors are not head and shoulders better than the Knicks and neither are the Nets. So why shouldn't the Knicks have a shot to win the Atlantic?

Kyle Lowry
DeMar DeRozan
Jonas Valančiūnas
Greivis Vásquez
Bruno Caboclo
Terrence Ross
James Johnson
Amir Johnson
Lucas Nogueira
Patrick Patterson
Greg Stiemsma
Jordan Hamilton
Will Cherry
Landry Fields
Tyler Hansbrough
Nando de Colo
Chuck Hayes
Julyan Stone

Jonas V is one of the top young center prospects in the NBA. His defense won't wow anyone, but he's got all the talent in the world on offense. The Knicks, even most of the league, have nothing close to the Lowry/DeRozan combo. That's a backcourt in it's prime. Vasquez is a capable third guard. Amir Johnson is one of the best value contracts in the league. Ross is a young high upside swingman who still has developmental room.

6'4 aging Chuck Hayes, essentially their 5th big, is a better big man defender right now over ANYONE on the Knicks frontline.

Hansborough, Hayes and Landry Fields are all expirings, the Raptors will have about 20 million in freed up cap space next offseason plus high upside rookie Caboclo ( Knicks have nothing to match his athleticism package, whether he pans out, will be hard to say)

Plus they own the Knicks 2016 first rounder.

They have Ujiri, who is considered one of the best young GMs in the game. And they aren't paying him 60 million to know he won't be there in five years. Aside from Melo, every single one of the Raptors starters would be starting over the Knicks starters if there was a choice. ( please do not argue that the Knicks, outside of Melo, have something superior to Lowry, DeRozan, Jonas V and Amir Johnson.)

If the Knicks win the Atlantic, it will be because it's a slap fight, not because the Knicks are chewing up strong teams in their wake.

Boston and Philly are cashing it in. They will surrender wins to get a better draft position. Even still, both teams still have superior front court talent compared to the Knicks. The Nets are old, I can hear Brook Lopez and Kevin Garnett breaking something right now. And have questionable depth after their aging core.

Yes, the Knicks can, in THEORY, take the Atlantic. If the Raptors get hit with major injuries, Lopez and Garnett fall apart as expected and having 40 percent of the division be willing to offer up 3rd string talent to openly tank for the future.

The Knicks winning the Atlantic that way ( which would be the only way) is like bragging about banging four depressed couch surfing chicks from the Jenny Craig clinic next door, with the applicable Cheeto dust all over them, to your job. FOUR OF THEM! FOUR 2's COULD BE SEEN AS ONE 8 BY SOME!

The Knicks, even with Melo, have the least amount of overall talent in the Atlantic. And they have the bleakest future. ( At least the Nets can make the playoffs consistently with that aging unit)

We sparred a couple days ago

Landing some haymakers as if the belt was on the line

But this post was really good, lots of quality

Non scripted, non partisan discourse with an astute

And precise assessment on the parts in comp

We have to contend with

I enjoyed the highlighted pieces in your parts

They ares spot on every arrow hitting the bullseye

gunsnewing wrote:Just think how much better we look this training camp compared to last year's when we weren't competitive. This team is NOT going to be worst than last year's.

Toronto was plYing their main guys Lowry, Derozan etc to win the game

They brought their guys back in late[like last 5min of 4th]

They were not that desperate

nixluva wrote:Some of you guys are not really getting it.....

It seems like people think the Knicks have no talent and that isn't true either. What we have is talent that isn't yet playing up to it's full potential because they're resisting the system mentally.

The Knicks have the least talent overall in the Atlantic Division.

I already covered the Raptors.

Boston has Rondo, Bradley, Turner and Marcus Smart in their backcourt. Rondo, despite his horrific shooting, is a human triple double waiting to happen. He can change the flow and dynamic of a game on his own. He is both playoff and championship battle tested. Avery Bradley is a legit young two way wing who is on the rise, the Knicks have no one near his talent aside from Melo (And I'd argue the combination of youth and plus defense actually makes Bradley more useful than Melo) Marcus Smart is already a plus NBA level defender as a rookie. He's probably a better defender than 75 percent of the league as we speak without having played one official regular season NBA game yet. Evan Turner can pour it in, given minutes and shots, he can produce and fill the cup.

The Celts also have rookie James Young, a wing who can play above the rim and has a far higher talent ceiling than any Knicks young player now. Sullinger and Olynyk are legit young bigs who have improved with each passing game and more experience, they are young cost controlled rookies. The Knicks would trade anyone not named Melo for Jeff Green right now. Boston has also rearmed with draft picks from dumping their old core and will tank to get a high pick in this next draft.

Other than Melo, not a single Knick would start for the Celtics. If contracts were not an issue, about 70 percent of the current Knicks roster would not even make the 15 man cut for the Celtics. Think about it, after Melo, Calderon, Dalembert and by virtue of youthful upside, Early and THJ, no one else on the Knicks would crack the Celtics 15 man roster.

The Knicks have nothing to match the Nets with Brook Lopez, Deron Williams and Joe Johnson. They each might have flaws but each would be a stone cold lock starter for the Knicks. The Nets even have two high upside bigs in Plumlee and Teletovic. Veterans Jarrett Jack, Kevin Garnett and AK47 will all make a difference on some level. This is a fringe playoff team in the East. A consistent one. The Knicks can't even say that. Scraps from a trade, Karasev is more talented than any young guy the Knicks got this offseason.

Knicks have nothing to compare to Noel and Embiid as young upside core pieces. MCW is a high upside rookie the Knicks wished they had. KJ Daniels is another high upside prospect. The Sixers will sit on Dario Saric and Embiid while enjoying their stockpile of picks, and will likely pick very high this year again. Henry Sims and Arnett Moultrie would start for the Knicks, and are better than any of the Knicks bigs. These guys are essentially reserves for the Sixers. Tony Wroten is better than anyone the Knicks can lift off their bench unit.

Think about it, most NBA teams are carrying 4th and 5th big men who are better than the Knicks STARTING FRONTLINE. Aside from Melo, no Knicks starter would be starting for most other functional NBA teams. Most teams back of the rotation guys would START for the Knicks. Most teams have young players on rookie contracts, even some who were trade dumps, who have a higher talent ceiling than any young Knick on the current roster. The Knicks will have some open cap space in the offseason, but so will most of the league. The Knicks still owe draft picks from older trades. Unlike most teams with young GMs who paid their dues grinding it out as scouts or analytics guys or cap guys, the Knicks have a guy who is edging near retirement with no real GM background. A lot of the Knicks on the roster now wouldn't crack a lot of teams 15 man squad.

And this is a comparison to the weakest division in the already soft East. Can you imagine if I started comparing Western rosters?

Splat wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:
That's true I guess I'm drawing the comparison to the Clyde who shared the backcourt with Monroe. I think that's what we hope to see from Calderon offensively. His defense sucks but you can't deny his IQ and efficiency. We've never had those 2 things from our PG. Not since Clyde. It's what made other guys like nash and Stockton great

I'd already deleted that post as it was just me overcommenting. Anyway, Jose is a whole other kettle of fish. Yes, the club is very dependent on him this year. That's about all there is to say at this point. He's no world beater. He's not a starter on the majority of the clubs as he heads into the twilight of his career.

Clyde was truly great. Jose is OK and nothing like prime Nash or Stockton, both of whom could weave a spell with their dribbling and passing. Jose is very simple. He knows how to play PG and he can shoot. That's an upgrade for now. Nothing more really. Plus he's here to educate the team on how to play basketball, something some of them are hearing about for the first time.

Jose is constantly underappreciated. Jose isn't a PG that is there to be a dominant force. He's there to create a flow for the team that can make it function properly. We don't need a PG to try and make stuff happen all the time. This team needs a brain and he can provide that. In that way his impact is to make the others better and that's what we want.

When he does look to score it's often a surprise to the opposing D. That makes him more effective. It's up to Fish to get Jose and Prigs to be a touch more aggressive looking to shoot when open. I think that is gonna happen. I did see them both taking good open shots. We have 2 of the most efficient guys in the league.

Hollinger Stats - True Shooting Percentage - Qualified Point Guards
RK PLAYER	        GP	MPG	TS%	AST	TO	USG	ORR	DRR	REBR	PER	VA	EWA
1  Pablo Prigioni, NY	66	19.4	.642	47.1	12.4	10.8	3.2	8.8	5.9	13.02	38.7	1.3
2  Stephen Curry, GS	78	36.5	.610	26.7	11.8	28.2	1.8	10.9	6.4	24.13	557.6	18.6
3  Jose Calderon, DAL	81	30.5	.596	30.0	8.2	16.4	1.4	7.6	4.5	15.25	156.4	5.2
4  Patty Mills, SA	81	18.9	.588	16.3	6.9	21.2	2.6	9.6	6.2	18.80	177.7	5.9
5  Chris Paul, LAC	62	35.0	.580	36.2	7.9	25.0	2.0	11.4	6.9	25.98	485.2	16.2

OK Jose Fan Club chairman, I don't see the point of your replying. We all know Jose can shoot well and no one suggested otherwise.

Nobody here has slammed Jose so why are you so eager to defend him? His limitations are obvious. Opposing guards will fly around him like drunk virgins circling the maypole. He will direct traffic. Him good at this.

I like Jose and Pablo just fine and dandy for what they are, old vets who can educate and direct their teammates, surely things you want on a club. But they are backup quality at this point, so Jose is just another transitional player, the best Phil could get for his purposes. Don't start telling us now that Jose is an elite PG. Puhleeze don't.

What you continue to do is overlook roster vulnerability.

We will be lucky as hell if Jose and Pablo are full service players the whole season. Pray they stay healthy, because if either one goes down, then you'll have one old starting PG and Larkin. That's not going to cut it.

Any fan of Jose could post his

Wonderful numbers from yr-to-yr

Yet the sink hole in all of this

Is the lack of posting Jose's difference in the W-L

Based on what he does on the court

Jose's play will prove to be a small buffer to an obliteration

Like a student standing before a tank at TS

gunsnewing wrote:Seems Phil really like Wear. He really fits with his IQ AND ball handling. Needs to work on defensive principles like any young player. Hopefully he gets the chance in Westchester

Maybe if he would have played

Last night we could have won

Instead Phil's already prepped him to

Go to the D-League, which is absurd

knickscity wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I was looking into the 1999-2000 Lakers to see how quickly they got to grips with the triangle. Unlike us, it seemed very quick with them- they won 67 games that season. Also surprising was their roster- outside of prime time Shaq and pre-prime Kobe, that roster wasn't very good:

Brian Shaw
Derek Fisher
John Celestand
Kobe Bryant
Ron Harper
Tyronn Lue
Glen Rice
Sam Jacobson
A.C. Green
Devean George
Rick Fox
Robert Horry
John Salley
Shaquille O'Neal
Travis Knight

It's pretty hard to grasp "outside of prime kobe and shaq". I notice one name in particular...Ron Harper, which likely brought on to help transistion the trinagle on the court, as evident by him being a starter. And it seems to team was littered with savvy player and guys who's previously won in the NBA.

To say "not very good" is seriously inaccurate.

You could pull up every one of phils championship rosters and look at the role players, i mean BRIAN SHAW, FISHER, LUE, they didn't even avg 8 points.

Lowry was a halfway decent pg with the rockets who lost his starting( not even sure he ever started) spot and got traded to the rapts who was shopping him after just one yr. Lets not forget he was calderone's back up http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278270 last yr.

So now you want to say he's better than calderone. Watch and see how well calderone runs the triangle, it's tailor made for him and Bargiani.

It's the players that make the system and the knicks have solid players that fit the system perfectly. The raptors were going no where until they traded gay, and lowry started learning, listening and buying in.

More importantly, you have committed players, and once you have that, it's just a matter of time before you'll see consistent execution.

The Knicks curretnly dont have anything you just posted....they constantly break away from the triangle, some havent truly tried, and some barely have played, so to assume they have what clearly they is wrong.

I dont even care for Lowry but I do know that team is better WITH him than they have been with Calderon. calderon has yet to have ANY consistent success in the NBA, and he was traded just this past offseason from a winning team....and I bet they wont miss him at all.

He is decent, not great, he'll do ok on a team like the Knicks that have ruled out significant winning.

First of all, look who calderone was playing with when he was with the raptors, secondly, he just got traded for Tyson(they think their getting DPOY)Chandler and a few throw ins to to unload Felton. He shoots very well, and doesn't turn the ball over, thats a bonus in my book.

Look, im not saying we're a championship team this season, but some of you are under estimating this roster by a mile, and over estimating every team in the atlantic..

You guys are expecting drastic overnight changes, it's a system, a rather complicated one at that, and your going to have to be patient. No It's not an IDEAL roster, but they are good enough to compete with any team in the NBA once they get familiar, and comfy.

nixluva wrote:If you do a rough comparison of the rosters of the Raptors and the Knicks in terms of scoring it's not like the Knicks are way off. The scores from Last year are mostly lower than normal for the Knicks role players as we all know the Knicks struggled offensively last year and most played below their career averages. IMO it's not unrealistic to think these guys can be more productive in this system as they get adjusted and build chemistry. STAT and JR were really playing well at the end of last year and were both scoring well. It's going to be important for Fish to get them comfortable in this system cuz if he does that makes this team much more potent. Right now it looks worse than it should with guys struggling to get comfortable but there is a lot of room for upside with this roster.

1.  Carmelo Anthony	27.1  DeMar DeRozan      22.7
2.  J.R. Smith          14.5  Kyle Lowry         17.9
3.  Andrea Bargnani	13.3  Jonas Valanciunas  11.3
4.  Amar'e Stoudemire   11.9  Terrence Ross      10.9
5.  Jose Calderon       11.3  Louis Williams     10.4                            
6.  Tim Hardaway	10.2  Amir Johnson       10.4
7.  Jason Smith	         9.7  Greivis Vasquez     9.5  
8.  Iman Shumpert        6.7  Patrick Patterson   9.1
9.  Samuel Dalembert     6.6  James Johnson       7.9         
10  Travis Outlaw        5.4  Jordan Hamilton     6.7
11. Pablo Prigioni       3.8  Tyler Hansbrough    4.9           
12. Quincy Acy           2.7  Landry Fields       2.3
13. Shane Larkin	 2.8  Greg Stiemsma       2.9
14. Cole Aldrich	 2.0  Chuck Hayes         2.2

What you continue to fail at is factoring

The advantages of other teams

In this case the Raptors do not

Have to learn a new system, they know what Casey expects

They don't have a 1st year coach

They have a system they've won in

They are more familiar with each other

They have players on an uptick like Val and Demar

They added a proven scorer in Lou Williams

Oh and our schedule out the gate is brutal

Considering we have lots of adjusting to do

The league is much better now