I have no issue with Amare starting as long as he earns it, and this traiiing camp/preseason is his chance to do so, but imo he losing the race at the moment.

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:Amare may very well be, but it does seems Fisher is rewarding guys who help the team successful in it's goals. Defense has been good but Amare doesnt contribute there like Acy and Smith has. They also seem to grasp the concepts of the triangle better as well which isnt surprising as role players reap good benfits in a system such as this.

I have no issue with Amare starting as long as he earns it, and this traiiing camp/preseason is his chance to do so, but imo he losing the race at the moment.

He still thinks of himself as an elite player. We're not ruining a featured offense so I just can't see him being successful here. He doesn't rebound or defend enough to put him or there. Jason smith and Acy are doing a better job from a team standpoint. I think if we have to adjust the game to much for Amare to get his then we are going backwards. I can see Amare filing in but not contributing anything more then what the other guys would. Amare isn't a 25pts a game scorer anymore

I wouldn't mind starting ACY and Smith, and finishing with Amare and Sam, but then what do you do with Bargi?

Fisher truly has his work cut out for him at the 4 spot. You can't play amare for less than 25 minutes, or else he's super in effective.

EnySpree wrote:

knickscity wrote:Amare may very well be, but it does seems Fisher is rewarding guys who help the team successful in it's goals. Defense has been good but Amare doesnt contribute there like Acy and Smith has. They also seem to grasp the concepts of the triangle better as well which isnt surprising as role players reap good benfits in a system such as this.

I have no issue with Amare starting as long as he earns it, and this traiiing camp/preseason is his chance to do so, but imo he losing the race at the moment.

He still thinks of himself as an elite player. We're not ruining a featured offense so I just can't see him being successful here. He doesn't rebound or defend enough to put him or there. Jason smith and Acy are doing a better job from a team standpoint. I think if we have to adjust the game to much for Amare to get his then we are going backwards. I can see Amare filing in but not contributing anything more then what the other guys would. Amare isn't a 25pts a game scorer anymore

I think it's not really helpful to look at the PPG when looking at STAT. His actual productivity per minute is what matters most. From that perspective he's still very productive on a per minute basis.

Per 100 Possessions:
                 Reb/  Pts/  Pts/ 
           Age   100p  100p  36 mins
PHX 9-10   27    13.0  33.6  24.1
NY  10-11  28    11.1  34.5  24.7
NY  11-12  29    12.3  27.5  19.2
NY  12-13  30    11.4  32.4  21.8
NY  13-14  31    11.6  28.0  19.0

It's clear that STAT is still very productive despite battling injury. As he had a pretty healthy summer this could be a year where his efficiency actually goes back up a bit. The issue is whether he should start and that is really more about the chemistry of the unit than whether STAT can produce for this team overall. He simply may not fit in the starting unit but could still be a good weapon off the bench.

Panos wrote:So I've seen separate reports that Acy or Jason Smith could be our starting PF.
If Amare is 100% healthy, how come he is not in the conversation as possible starter?

New Regime wants new culture

Your starting five is the essential statement to your team as whole as to how you want them to play the game. On a roster without many high level defenders, the first unit has to be the best defensive unit overall to set the tone for this team. If they play well together, they can score enough to get leads early if the D is there.

That requires a unit that plays team defense and implements the triangle, neither of which Stat is qualified for. Of the two frontline bigs with expiring contracts, Bargs is way more suitable to start than Amare.

But neither will likely start unless there is a shortage of bodies due to injury, because they are not part of the future. They will be used in a utilitarian fashion to fill in holes where needed.

Stat is the worst choice for a starter on this present team. Acy or Smith are far more appropriate.

Oh, and did you somehow forget Stat has a history of not playing well with Melo on the floor? Occasionally, but mostly not.

Amare is already in the rear view mirror for this club. He could play if he plays D and doesn't become a ball stopper and gets his points in the flow of the game. Or he could end up riding the bench. But he is not going to be a featured player, unless they have a trading partner already lined up and want to give him a little shine. But showcasing him now in order to entice a trade makes no sense.

Splat wrote:

Panos wrote:So I've seen separate reports that Acy or Jason Smith could be our starting PF.
If Amare is 100% healthy, how come he is not in the conversation as possible starter?

New Regime wants new culture

Your starting five is the essential statement to your team as whole as to how you want them to play the game. On a roster without many high level defenders, the first unit has to be the best defensive unit overall to set the tone for this team. If they play well together, they can score enough to get leads early if the D is there.

That requires a unit that plays team defense and implements the triangle, neither of which Stat is qualified for. Of the two frontline bigs with expiring contracts, Bargs is way more suitable to start than Amare.

But neither will likely start unless there is a shortage of bodies due to injury, because they are not part of the future. They will be used in a utilitarian fashion to fill in holes where needed.

Stat is the worst choice for a starter on this present team. Acy or Smith are far more appropriate.

Oh, and did you somehow forget Stat has a history of not playing well with Melo on the floor? Occasionally, but mostly not.

Amare is already in the rear view mirror for this club. He could play if he plays D and doesn't become a ball stopper and gets his points in the flow of the game. Or he could end up riding the bench. But he is not going to be a featured player, unless they have a trading partner already lined up and want to give him a little shine. But showcasing him now in order to entice a trade makes no sense.

Splat wrote:The problem with invoking Stat's higher FG% and ability to score in the paint is he remains a highly situational player.

If Fish is dealing with an opponent that effortlessly exploits Stat on defense every time down the floor, then that particular game may not benefit as much from Stat's offensive contributions. I'd be interested to see how many minutes Stat gets against the Spurs this year.

Stat is better as a sub so he can play while the other team is also resting some of its starters and better players. Stat needs to be put in the game when the matchups work for us on offense, but don't hurt us too much on defense. This requires him to be a sub so Fish can judge accordingly and use him situationally, not by default as a starter.

This is why you probably will never see Stat start here again unless we have injuries.

If STAT is on the floor you must make use of him offensively. His efficiency on offense is a career 114 and his defensive rating is a career 106. If you have STAT on the floor it's not for hid defense. You want him taking shots and that's my main point. This idea that he should be passing is ludicrous. Sure if he is doubled or out of position, but if he's in point blank range he should be trying to score the ball because he's a +60% scorer in the paint. Too often his teammates don't get him the ball in prime position, he doesn't get enough touches and thus you're wasting his biggest value to the team!!! Off the bench STAT should be a primary option on offense... PERIOD! It's similar to how you have to think about using Bargs in PnP or Calderon as a 3pt threat. Gear the offense towards their strengths and maximize their efficiency. This is what I think Fish will do.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:The problem with invoking Stat's higher FG% and ability to score in the paint is he remains a highly situational player.

If Fish is dealing with an opponent that effortlessly exploits Stat on defense every time down the floor, then that particular game may not benefit as much from Stat's offensive contributions. I'd be interested to see how many minutes Stat gets against the Spurs this year.

Stat is better as a sub so he can play while the other team is also resting some of its starters and better players. Stat needs to be put in the game when the matchups work for us on offense, but don't hurt us too much on defense. This requires him to be a sub so Fish can judge accordingly and use him situationally, not by default as a starter.

This is why you probably will never see Stat start here again unless we have injuries.

My point wasn't about STAT starting, just that he's one of our most efficient players and only deep post threat. The numbers don't lie about his prowess in the paint. IMO the biggest issue with STAT here in NY has been the perimeter D. Sure he's one of the worst instinctive defenders i've ever seen, but he was on some big win teams in PHX and his poor D was somewhat mitigated by the better defense around him. Still not good but it speaks to the fact that Fish has changed the defense to a better scheme that is more sound and easier for the players to execute.

If STAT is on the floor you must make use of him offensively. His efficiency on offense is a career 114 and his defensive rating is a career 106. If you have STAT on the floor it's not for hid defense. You want him taking shots and that's my main point. This idea that he should be passing is ludicrous. Sure if he is doubled or out of position, but if he's in point blank range he should be trying to score the ball because he's a +60% scorer in the paint. Too often his teammates don't get him the ball in prime position, he doesn't get enough touches and thus you're wasting his biggest value to the team!!! Off the bench STAT should be a primary option on offense... PERIOD! It's similar to how you have to think about using Bargs in PnP or Calderon as a 3pt threat. Gear the offense towards their strengths and maximize their efficiency. This is what I think Fish will do.

Nothing you wrote changes anything I wrote. Stat is very much a situational player at this point. If Stat can be efficient while playing according to Fish's expectations of how he wants the team to play, then he'll get minutes.

I never said Stat can't contribute. What I've said is he is the opposite of what Phil and Fish are building in terms of a defensive culture that plays the triangle. I've said Stat is a low IQ ball player. He's basically a moron as a ball player.

But that doesn't mean all of his talent is gone and he can't have good games and contribute. But it is all conditional at this point and not a given IMO. I will wait to see how this plays out since I don't see the slightest reason to start him. Therefore, he will still have to prove his worth as a sub is how I see it playing out.

He's halfway out the door. This is not a win now year. There are multiple considerations in play here and many of them don't include any concern whatsoever over giving him minutes. There is no one to appease. Stat has no clout. His play will determine his contrition, period.

I wanted to strangle that MF right then and there.

knickscity wrote:

Splat wrote:Does anyone remember how Woodson said he actually played vets during their expiring years to give them a better chance at landing new contracts?

I wanted to strangle that MF right then and there.

I missed that quote....thats a fireable offense there.

I may have merged MDA and Woodson into a composite nightmare coach called D'Woody. I consulted my memory banks and I realized it may have been MDA who said it. I know it was said. I know I was ticked off. I know the past trauma of being a Knicks fan has damaged my brain.