Amare is not a team ball player. He needs the ball and he wants to score. He wants the offense to focus on him. He thinks highly of himself and wants individual success over team success. You can see it in his body language. Bargs played well enough in the first game to get my support. Jason smith to me won the starting 4 spot. Dalembert won the starting center spot. Quincy Acy deserves minutes too. Amare adds nothing to the equation.

this is the culture change. You want guys to buy in. Your stars have to be the first to buy in. Amare and JR are not buying in. I smell a trade.

Hitting jumpers, driving to the hoop, blocking shots and sharing the ball.

So, I disagree with your assessment and question where it's coming from.

Looks like JR had back spasms so the jury is still out, but I can't allow you to bash amare with no proof other than your random gut.

Amare is playing extremely well and contributing within the framework of the triangle.

Nice try though.

babyKnicks wrote:Last night...

Amare: 4/10, 5 boards, 1 block, 1 turnover
Jason smith: 5/10, 5 boards, 0 blocks, 3 turnovers

Looks pretty even to me, but hey, haters are gonna hate.

Hoes gonna ride the dick too.

What's wrong with not like a players game? I think the guy doesn't fit. Stays don't tell the whole story. Just like +/- serves no purpose.

Amare looks majestic when he scores or when he goes all out on a block.... as far as the team concept he does nothing. Will we win any more games by playing him over any other guy? No. I think we would be better off letting him go for the Better of the team. Chemistry wise and culture wise. I could be wrong but don't label be a hater cuz i don't like a guy. You can be a dick rider. Anyway it takes away from the conversion

Also, Amar'e Stoudemire absolutely, positively sees court time. In fact, I'd start him. No way I'm sitting our 2nd best player... He may not be the 2nd best player next year (if he returns, which he very well could depending on how he looks this year & what type of off-season we have) but right now this second, on this team, he's hands down our 2nd best player. I think it's imperative that the man is brought up to speed as soon as possible. We need to get him working on all cylinders...Last night, I thought he looked good (it didn't count--a whistle had just blown--but how 'bout the lightning quick baseline blow-by for a dunk he had on Nerlens Noel in the 2nd half -- if you blinked or looked away for a sec., you would've missed it. That move was damn impressive and pretty telling on where he is and what he could potentially do for us). As I've seen every game so far, his offensive movements have be real good (he's making his moves with force, a renewed quickness we haven't seen the last 2 seasons & conviction), a couple of more shots fell last night as a result, and he was a factor on the glass... Only adjustment I really wanna see--I think working with Jose Calderon over Shane Larkin, strangely something we haven't seen yet, could help Amar'e get up to speed ever quicker. I think Calderon could bring out the best in Amar'e...You wanna tell me the best thing to do is trade the guy off -- OK, fine. Go get me a trade worth making. Until I see a worthwhile proposal, he's my 2nd best player that I feel we need to feature heavily in our attack. And the better he plays, the better trade package we could get for him by the deadline. No need to move him now. A trade like Jason Richardson and a 2nd rounder will be there at the deadline no matter how STAT plays, unless Philly falls back out of the race. It's minimal value. However, if he plays well, I think we could see some better offers (not that we have to take them--playing this thing out & simply letting his monster salary expire off the cap still feels like the way to go). In the meantime, if we want to win and have a good year this season, I think he could help us. He gives us a post presence unlike any other big on the roster...Bargnani's the guy that I feel maintains minimum value throughout. Pound for pound, I'd argue Jason Smith's the better player anyway. STAT's a different animal entirely. It's imperative that we get him going in the right direction. Just how I see it all as of right now.

Guys like Acy get a lot of burn in the preseason because coach wants to see what he has against NBA talent (76rs and Celtics barely qualify but we wont go there).

Fisher can play who he wants, but how do you think this thing is going to go down if the Knicks start 3-10 with Amare and JR not playing or involved and we are scoring 80 points a game? Makes zero sense. Fisher needs to get what he can get from these guys. If its only to ship them out later fine. I can tell you if they are malcontents on the bench not getting time while we are losing games and Quincy Acy is playing 20 mpg they will have zero value and this thing will get ugly fast.

Finestrg wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would be shocked if they really are the odd men out. Whether people like it or not (when healthy) they are still our 2nd and 3rd best players. Considering we arent scoring much keeping Amare and his 55% shooting on the bench doesnt make much sense. Same with JR who when playing well is an impact player.

Guys like Acy get a lot of burn in the preseason because coach wants to see what he has against NBA talent (76rs and Celtics barely qualify but we wont go there).

Fisher can play who he wants, but how do you think this thing is going to go down if the Knicks start 3-10 with Amare and JR not playing or involved and we are scoring 80 points a game? Makes zero sense. Fisher needs to get what he can get from these guys. If its only to ship them out later fine. I can tell you if they are malcontents on the bench not getting time while we are losing games and Quincy Acy is playing 20 mpg they will have zero value and this thing will get ugly fast.

Excellent points. I mean the same people saying we're not scoring enough points are the same ones who want Amar'e to sit. Does that make any sense??

some guys hate Amare, and he's not part of the future. I get it. If the Knicks are going to effectively rebuild this roster they must get value where there is value. Take the emotion out of it. Knicks finished 16-5 and Amare put up 15/6 and shot 55% in 28 minutes during that stretch. If you dont think that type of production is valuable in the NBA your just not thinking with your head.

Lets face it... there are still big changes coming, and some of those changes mean we have to hang onto the past a little longer. We still need something from Amare and JR, even if its simply a little effort before they are shown the door. To say we dont need them is pure denial. These guys arent robots.

When the season starts you will see plenty of Amare and JR. Deal with it and hope they play well.

EnySpree wrote:Everyone in the team is playing well except these two. Jr Smith is too frustrated with the offense. He came out and said it will take until January for the team to get it. I think by the last pre season game the Knicks will have it down. Shump and thjr are thriving in the new style of play. Looks like jr is the one that needs to sit now.

Amare is not a team ball player. He needs the ball and he wants to score. He wants the offense to focus on him. He thinks highly of himself and wants individual success over team success. You can see it in his body language. Bargs played well enough in the first game to get my support. Jason smith to me won the starting 4 spot. Dalembert won the starting center spot. Quincy Acy deserves minutes too. Amare adds nothing to the equation.

this is the culture change. You want guys to buy in. Your stars have to be the first to buy in. Amare and JR are not buying in. I smell a trade.

You can add Bargnani to that list. He looked good in the first game but I still prefer Jason Smith, Quincy Acy, Samuel Dalembert, Cole Aldrich and Travis Wear to him and Amare. Worse comes to worse, we could always add Kenyon Martin for insurance purposes.

NardDogNation wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

babyKnicks wrote:Last night...

Amare: 4/10, 5 boards, 1 block, 1 turnover
Jason smith: 5/10, 5 boards, 0 blocks, 3 turnovers

Looks pretty even to me, but hey, haters are gonna hate.

Hoes gonna ride the dick too.

What's wrong with not like a players game? I think the guy doesn't fit. Stays don't tell the whole story. Just like +/- serves no purpose.

Amare looks majestic when he scores or when he goes all out on a block.... as far as the team concept he does nothing. Will we win any more games by playing him over any other guy? No. I think we would be better off letting him go for the Better of the team. Chemistry wise and culture wise. I could be wrong but don't label be a hater cuz i don't like a guy. You can be a dick rider. Anyway it takes away from the conversion

come on man disagreeing is fine but using profanity laced insults is not respectful. Anyway in regards to Amare he is what he is we cant move him because of his salary but he can still be effectiive. Jason Smith is what he is too a big guy off the bench who can shoot and provide some interior defense

I apologize but in the context of being called a hater, I take it as some one disregarding my opinion because of envy. To me that's worse than using a curse word. I don't hate or envy another person. We're talking basketball. I already explained that I don't like Amare and I believe he keeps proving why. My opinion can change just like it had with shump so far in pre season.

Anyway I do apologize but you see where it came from.

I'm not sure "dick riding" constitutes profanity. Some people are just overly sensitive. I don't think you need to apologize.

P.S., I think you've been on point with Amar'e. I like Amar'e the person plenty but Amar'e the player is detrimental to this team.

Just don't want to take away from the conversation

Which is it? Do you want team ball or you want to watch one guy taking all the shots?

I want to win. Except what the Knicks are doing now. Realize who is playing well and formulate a new found love for the Knicks damn it

EnySpree wrote:We're trying to change the culture. We're running an offense. We're not paying hero ball. Alot of fans were sick of Melo chucking shots but now we want to get Amare up to speed so we can dump it down to him?

Which is it? Do you want team ball or you want to watch one guy taking all the shots?

I want to win. Except what the Knicks are doing now. Realize who is playing well and formulate a new found love for the Knicks damn it

That is the point. Melo was resigned by Phil because he was confident Melo could thrive in the Triangle.

Melo has always been a player who was best used as first option in a well schooled passing game, because he has a quick trigger and he is actually better utilized that way than by having him do ISO sets. But Melo could ISO and get his points too so feeble coaches like Woodson let that become Melo's default play. Melo will be a better player now.

Stat in Phoenix was the ultimate big man on a running team. He was fed the ball in motion most of the time and with his power he thrived in that scenario. After he lost his athleticism, his glaring lack of defense was highlighted further and he had to go back to the drawing board for his offensive moves. He retooled enough to be a player again, but he doesn't fit here now. He remains a liability on defense and I cannot say that like Melo he will be a better player as a result of the system.

That's the big difference between the two. Melo is still our future. Stat is certainly not. And if Stat can't understand the system, why should he expected to play well on the court the same time as Melo now if it was a problem before having a coherent system?

I do understand why some still want him to play, but he is just a lousy fit now.

But I do not understand how his potential point production is continually invoked while his liabilities get swept under the rug. He is well-documented as a plus/minus disaster. How can this be blithely ignored by so many?

His overall contribution within the whole scheme is what matters. His points are not the core story. It is his aggregate impact on the game as a whole which is not good. We have seen so many times how teams go on runs with him on the floor.

I'm not interested in insulting others who value Amare. I think he is simply a deep rotation backup player at best, but I'd be glad if he did not play at all.

We'll get our points while also keeping other teams' production down if we have better defenders than Stat in the game. The spread between our points and the opponents is what matters. We can find 15 points from other players just fine.